Optimized rogue build?

[Tanis]

Hey all, just needing any advice on a rogue melee build I'm making for 3.5/Pathfinder. Apologies if there's another thread that this should be on, I'm pretty new to this forum.
So far I'm a githzerai barbarian 1/ rogue 1, intending to buyout my LA (which is +1 for pathfinder) next lvl. I took barb 1 for the lion totem alt. class feature from CChamp. which gives the pounce ability. The theme is charge with TWF.

allowed books are core, completes, XPH, MM 1-5, DMG, BoVD, BoED, ToB, Planar Handbook, Minitures Handbook, Pathfinder Campaign Setting,
Pathfinder Core Rule

FEATS:
TWF tree
Weapon Finesse
Shadowblade (ToB)
Neraph Charge (Planar HB)
Staggering Strike (CScoundrel)
??? Not sure what else would be good, any advice?

BUILD
Barb 1/Rogue 3/Swordsage 1/Rogue 4/Bloodclaw Master 2/Swordsage 1/Uncanny Trickster 3/???

basically the idea is:
Surprise Round: Charge, Full Attack; if i win init. stay there.
1st Rnd: Full Attack then 'Sudden Jump' (Tiger Claw Maneouvre) to jump away as a swift action. That way i don't get hit with a full attack.

after that, step adjacent to cleric in front row and sneak attack or if i have Assassin's Stance instead of Island of Blades, tumble to flank

I want a high Wis & Dex, predominantly, for AC, Attack, Damage (Shadowblade), and Will saves. oh and i'm getting a few tricks from CompScoundrel: Nimble Charge, Acrobatic Backstab, Nimble Stand, ??? not sure what else, maybe Point It Out

In the party we have a warblade, cleric, and sorcerer(newb).


Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.

[ubernoob]

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[Tanis]

can you elaborate how having no TWF penalties and increased initiator lvl for 2 level dip is ass?

you might be right about uncanny trickster, but it's basically losing one level for funky tricks , but you're prob. right there, i can just pay skill pts.

i was gonna go swashbuckler/ invis. blade as well to get Int to AC and dmg but it ended up being too MAD.

any other ideas?

[CatharzGodfoot]

How different are Pathfinder rogues from normal ones?

[A Man In Black]

How different are Pathfinder rogues from normal ones?

They get talents off of this list at even-numbered levels below 10. Hide/MS is combined into one (completely fucked) skill, spot/listen/search is one skill, and some other bullshit skills were combined. You can't sneak attack with flasks anymore.

[ubernoob]

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[CatharzGodfoot]

They get talents off of this list at even-numbered levels below 10. Hide/MS is combined into one (completely fucked) skill, spot/listen/search is one skill, and some other bullshit skills were combined. You can't sneak attack with flasks anymore.

Do they still get bullshit bonus feats as a special ability? Or is that subsumed in the talent?

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Rogue talents actually look like a pretty sweet deal. You can grab the TWFing chain as bonus feats, and therefore don't need to worry about dexterity. Boosting wisdom on a rogue is a fool's errand anyway, and you might actually be best off building this as a strength rogue. This will look a bit unusual, because you'll want to be using a quarterstaff to get 1.5*Str to primary attacks--unless you go with greatsword/armor spikes bullshit.

[Tanis]

You can only get 1 bns feat with talents, that is you can only get each talent once, and that talent is Combat Feat.

the Wis is for Swordsage bns to AC and Will saves (which is how i died last character - damn stupid bard with sleep spell and three friends doing coup de grace on me getting beauty sleep!!! )

what do you mean by using a quarterstaff to get 1.5*Str to primary attacks? that only works if you're attacking once with it, not TWF i thought.

what's the greatsword/armor spikes bullshit?

[A Man In Black]

Rogue talents actually look like a pretty sweet deal. You can grab the TWFing chain as bonus feats, and therefore don't need to worry about dexterity.

PF got rid of the bonus feat rule where you don't need to meet the prerequisites. Also, you can only take a fighter bonus feat as a rogue talent once.

[Username17]

If you're going the Neraph Charge route, why not be a Neraph? No LA bullshit and you get Neraph Charge for free.

In other news, the Pathfinder Rogue is not allowed to have nice things (ranged sneak attacks are essentially disabled). But you get to use all the bullshit spells from the completes. Why not just be a Beguiler and call it a day?

-Username17

[Tanis]

I was hoping you'd throw in Frank, love your work btw.

yeh, you're right, Neraph's rock! unfortunately i wrote this guy up on the fly after my last character got owned. saw neraph too late dammit.

prob. next character if i die again, not that i'm a pessimist

unfortunately, no PHBII. otherwise my feat selection would be heaps different.

any other ideas tho?

[Tanis]

can you elaborate how having no TWF penalties and increased initiator lvl for 2 level dip is ass?

1) IL does absolutely fucking nothing for your character, and it's only +1 (+2 over 2 levels instead of +1 over 2 levels)
2) Medium bab dip + negate TWF penalties = Fighter 2 taking weapon focus. That's pretty ass.

1) There's a few maneouvres that will make my character a bit more versatile, hate being a one trick pony.

2) I get Weapon Focus for free as a Swordsage. So I can see where you're coming from with the 2 free feats, but if i break it down it's :
+1 to bab
-1 IL
I don't get my Str bns to off-hand attacks
I lose the +2 Str for approx. 9 rnds a day (which stacks with my rage)

If you know of any feats that would surpass that let me know, or if you could offer a build or class that would prob. be a bit more constructive.

[Username17]

You can use any of the Completes, but not the PHB2? Uh... sure.

Pathfinder makes it very difficult to be a Rogue. Most of the standard ways to get Sneak Attacks at mid and high levels are jerked around. You can't get Sneak Attack from blink, grease, and in most cases invisibility. Flasks and similar high-quality Rogue weapons are marked "no sneak attack" in Pahfinder in case Jason forgot to nerf some manner of getting sneak attack. So you pretty much have to go up and flank with an ally and then auto-attack until you or the target are dead. Pathfinder's world of traps are basically pretty irrelevant by the time your skill ranks are high enough to have that class feature actually work, and there's still basically nothing you couldn't do by just having the Druid give it the once-over.

That being said, the only thing I guess there is to do is to get yourself a wand of wraithstrike (ComAd, page 158) and then max out on bullshit exotic weapons. Armor Spikes, Horned Helmets, Boot Blades. Go crazy. You won't qualify for Improved Multiweapon Fighting for a dog's age - and you don't care. With every attack being a melee touch attack that does half your level in Sneak Attack dice, it just doesn't even matter how bullshit an attack is to begin with.

-Username17

[ubernoob]

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[Tanis]

You can use any of the Completes, but not the PHB2? Uh... sure.

Pathfinder makes it very difficult to be a Rogue. Most of the standard ways to get Sneak Attacks at mid and high levels are jerked around. You can't get Sneak Attack from blink, grease, and in most cases invisibility. Flasks and similar high-quality Rogue weapons are marked "no sneak attack" in Pahfinder in case Jason forgot to nerf some manner of getting sneak attack. So you pretty much have to go up and flank with an ally and then auto-attack until you or the target are dead. Pathfinder's world of traps are basically pretty irrelevant by the time your skill ranks are high enough to have that class feature actually work, and there's still basically nothing you couldn't do by just having the Druid give it the once-over.



That being said, the only thing I guess there is to do is to get yourself a wand of wraithstrike (ComAd, page 158) and then max out on bullshit exotic weapons. Armor Spikes, Horned Helmets, Boot Blades. Go crazy. You won't qualify for Improved Multiweapon Fighting for a dog's age - and you don't care. With every attack being a melee touch attack that does half your level in Sneak Attack dice, it just doesn't even matter how bullshit an attack is to begin with.

-Username17

Nice. I hadn't bothered with wraithstrike cuz of PF's Sneak Attack rules, but that's pretty good. btw, grease can work - but they have to move in their turn. maybe combined with goad? meh.

@ubernoob- heh. knowledge devotion's a bit bullshit, eh? good tho.

cheers.