Kobajagrande wrote:What a bunch of pussies.
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Kobajagrande wrote:What a bunch of pussies.
Anytime any events the occur during the mission make the rest of the mission more difficult it is an incentive to give up and start a new mission. It would be counterbalanced by whatever incentives there are to continue the mission and try to complete it, and exacerbated by whatever penalties there are for continuing the mission under more difficult circumstances and failing.Koumei wrote:I'm not arguing with you there, I'm saying that being low on HP (more than any other resource, really) really incentivises me to say "I don't care about concessions of the mayor against the Baron. It's not like I own the kingdom, what do I care if we pack up and leave and the mayor's people have to hand over additional concessions and lose the overall war? We'll be off doing something else, somewhere else."
Is basically admitting defeat utterly. You're saying "Well, events that make a mission more difficult just can't and won't happen." Which is in turn saying that enemies cannot sound alarms or work together, and that actions in one battle cannot affect later battles. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? That is the most fucking retarded idea I have ever heard.Koumei wrote:2) HP just recharges, and presumably everyone enters every battle at full power, or people have some degree of "X per day badassery" so they enter with less actual power but at full HP. It's probably a psychological "These are my life points" thing but acknowledging that doesn't make me change it - I still heal up that 6 damage from 106,000 HP between battles in Disgaea, and that's a OHKO game.
I seriously think 2) is going to be the easiest solution here
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
No. It does not mean that at all. Your defenses abraiding and their offenses improving are the same thing. They are exactly ad in all ways exactly the same thing. If you're saying that you respond differently to an increase in Damage Supply than to a Decrease in Defensive Demand that both mean that you could lose in one round of bad luck die rolling, you are telling me that you are insane and incapable of behaving rationally in response to mathematical incentives.Koumei wrote:So you need to accept that, as it goes on, particularly when the party makes noise, takes too long, fails certain things etc., they are likely to have to fight more foes if they wish to continue, and that means they can't be on "The next hit will take me out of action".
I wouldn't really call it non-rational. Lower HP scores mean you're more likely to die easily. In situations where you die easier, you tend to act more carefully, and take way more precautions as the margin for error is significantly smaller.Orion wrote:In fairness frank, that's explicitly what she said: that she has a nonrational response to specifically low HP scores, and that therefore she would prefer a game in which attrition affected class features or something rather than health.
Hey dumbfuck, try reading.RandomCasualty2 wrote:I wouldn't really call it non-rational. Lower HP scores mean you're more likely to die easily. In situations where you die easier, you tend to act more carefully, and take way more precautions as the margin for error is significantly smaller.Orion wrote:In fairness frank, that's explicitly what she said: that she has a nonrational response to specifically low HP scores, and that therefore she would prefer a game in which attrition affected class features or something rather than health.
That's actually pretty rational thinking.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
I did not say that you lying cockbag. Increased enemy strength tends to mean "more of them" in these cases - the enemies, having been alerted, don't grab their death cannons they mysteriously weren't going to use otherwise. It means you fight more. And by fighting more enemies, yes, your chances of defeat are greater, but not by as much. Consider:Kaelik wrote:
Hey dumbfuck, try reading.
She explicitly said that having 10 HP when enemies do 10 damage per round is something she avoids no matter what, but that having 100HP when enemies do 100 damage a round is okay, because she treats HP differently than increased enemy strength.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
I don't know if this holds true for other RPGs, but I sure haven't seen this play out in D&D 3.X. You basically end up with a bunch of spellcasters running around that can fill the roles of non-casters just as well (or in some cases, better then) martial characters. The fact that they have tons of raw power and the ability to spam their abilities like crazy without diminishing returns doesn't alleviate the situation much. And members of the same class don't *feel* very different from one another.RandomCasualty2 wrote:I'm really not sure role protection is a great idea. Role protection issues sort themselves out if the game has a good amount of ability choices which are unique and balanced.
Keep in mind that Frank's proposal does not mean that you're going to have a bunch of clones running around. Within each class, you'll have a number of builds and abilities to choose from, a subclass that grants you additional abilities, and active racial abilities that give you some additional options in tactical combat and during Skill Challenges. And Frank hasn't even really talked about Prestige Classes yet. A Kitchen Sink Monk is probably going to be less of a "cookie-cutter" character then a 3.X Monk, honestly.RandomCasualty2 wrote:For kitchen sink roleplaying you don't want to have heavily typed characters, as that sort of defeats the entire purpose. There aren't X amount of character types in Kitchen sink, there are tons of them. In fact, you probably never meet a wizard or monk quite like yourself. You want to have scorpion, Cyrax and Qui Chang Caine.
I suspect there's room for all of these characters. But the generalist wizard is going to be a lot more like Wizards from Earthdawn and a lot less like that fucking cockbag self-insert Marty Sue motherfucker Elminster.RandomCasualty2 wrote:You also want to be able to fit time mages, elemenetalists as well as generalists like Elminster.
If a concept is distinct enough to stand on its own, you would determine the role that best fits the concept and then write up a new class/subclass accordingly. You end up with Duskblades and Dread Necromancers - classes that are "fluffy", yet potent and balanced.RandomCasualty2 wrote:And its really impossible to create a role protection among a broad group without excluding concepts, which isn't what kitchen sink roleplaying is about.
Using build points to create characters isn't an illegitimate game concept by any means, but it doesn't allow players to deal with classes in nice conceptualized chunks. You can probably build a Necromancer in GURPS or a Rogue in SR4 easily enough, but they're not so much members of a "class" as they are characters with a jumble of powers with a label slapped on them (much like D&D Wizards). There's no sense of identity or a underlying unified concept. Say what you will about Final Fantasy XI or World of Warcraft, but whenever you talk about a "Dragoon" or a "Warlock" in those games, everyone has a very well-defined communal idea of what those classes "mean".RandomCasualty2 wrote:Now, what you do have is a finite amount of ability slots. Whether those slots happen to be class levels, feats or GURPS character points is irrelevant. The point is that you use them to buy different abilities and you eventually run out of them.
Protected Roles don't so much prevent players from taking singular uber-abilities (which shouldn't really be in the game to begin with no matter what), but it does prevent them from combining disparate, independently balanced powers together like Voltron to obtain uber-effects, which is one of the weaknesses of GURPS and Champions.RandomCasualty2 wrote:The concepts of protected roles only tend to come up with a certain role ability is super good and everyone wants to take it. But this is another way of saying that a given role is unbalanced. If you balance your abilities right, then everyone won't be running to get the same ability and infringe on other people's schticks.
The human torch and the pyromancer may both play with fire, but they'll need to do different, distinct things with fire, or else they won't be able to play with each other in a party very well. And fuck Elminster.RandomCasualty2 wrote:You're also going to have some overlap when you get to more generalist characters. If your game is going to include the human torch, a pyromancer and Elminster, then you're gonna deal with a degree of overlap, and that's actually desireable.
In kitchen sink roleplaying though, there's no such thing as disparate effects, because there are no standards. Remember that any number of characters may have effects that let them move in a blur of speed. Any number of characters may have flight effects, and so on. The entire point of kitchen sink is that you're throwing everything in there and that means that your game can't be strongly typed. It's not just Conan or just Harry Potter, it's everything, plus whatever your players can think up.Ganbare Gincun wrote: Protected Roles don't so much prevent players from taking singular uber-abilities (which shouldn't really be in the game to begin with no matter what), but it does prevent them from combining disparate, independently balanced powers together like Voltron to obtain uber-effects, which is one of the weaknesses of GURPS and Champions.
And yet, with truly open ended abilities that is inevitable. All problems become one not of using the characters' abilities, but of finding an NPC who has the specific powerful but limited ability that solves the exact problem you happen to have and paying him five gold coins.This seems like an... onion... related problem. Let's go hire a first level Shallotmancer to find the villain and teleport us to him.
Well, actually not really. Kitchen Sink gaming doesn't have to mean that every possible NPC combination exists, only that the PCs can make any character. While the PC can make a cyber-minotaur steam mage, there's no actual requirement that there are any other cyber-minotaurs or steam mages in the setting. He could be unique. In fact, in a lot of kitchen sink settings, they are unique or damn near close to it.FrankTrollman wrote: And yet, with truly open ended abilities that is inevitable. All problems become one not of using the characters' abilities, but of finding an NPC who has the specific powerful but limited ability that solves the exact problem you happen to have and paying him five gold coins.
But for a kitchen sink setting, you're not going to be able to easily design adventures for a generic group, because there seriously is no generic group. you can throw in different kinds of challenges, but you can't account for everything.The players need to be able to have a grip on what things can be done so that they can make tactical decisions and the DM needs to be able to have a grip on what things can be done so that they can design adventures.
Well no, while your abilities are finite, your actual archetypes are going to be near infinite, because of combinations. You can have pure time mages, time mage knights, time mage pirates, time mage priests, knight priests, knight elementalists, whatever have you. And often times you're going to have to deal with powers being reflavored. A golem with a flame thrower and a firemage may pretty much use the same "cone of fire" ability, but the archetype is completely different.And the simple fact that the difficulty of adding and removing these conditions must be answered with finality means that you can't just add whatever you want whenever you want. Even if your list of possible character archetypes is very long, it's still going to be finite and specific.