The unethical Milgram experiment.
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Lago PARANOIA
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The unethical Milgram experiment.
Specifically, what was unethical about it?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
The experiment didn't stop when the guards got abusive, that's one. At one point some of the prisoners start to demand to be let go, but they weren't, that's two.
EDIT: Sorry, that was the Stanford prison experiment.
EDIT: Sorry, that was the Stanford prison experiment.
Last edited by Juton on Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wikipedia to the rescue!
Ethics
The Milgram Experiment raised questions about the ethics of scientific experimentation because of the extreme emotional stress suffered by the participants. In Milgram's defense, 84 percent of former participants surveyed later said they were "glad" or "very glad" to have participated, 15 percent chose neutral responses (92% of all former participants responding).[11] Many later wrote expressing thanks. Milgram repeatedly received offers of assistance and requests to join his staff from former participants. Six years later (at the height of the Vietnam War), one of the participants in the experiment sent correspondence to Milgram, explaining why he was glad to have participated despite the stress:
While I was a subject in 1964, though I believed that I was hurting someone, I was totally unaware of why I was doing so. Few people ever realize when they are acting according to their own beliefs and when they are meekly submitting to authority… To permit myself to be drafted with the understanding that I am submitting to authority's demand to do something very wrong would make me frightened of myself… I am fully prepared to go to jail if I am not granted Conscientious Objector status. Indeed, it is the only course I could take to be faithful to what I believe. My only hope is that members of my board act equally according to their conscience…[citation needed]
The experiments provoked emotional criticism more about the experiment's implications than with experimental ethics. In the journal Jewish Currents, Joseph Dimow, a participant in the 1961 experiment at Yale University, wrote about his early withdrawal as a "teacher," suspicious "that the whole experiment was designed to see if ordinary Americans would obey immoral orders, as many Germans had done during the Nazi period."[12] Indeed, that was one of the explicitly-stated goals of the experiments. Quoting from the preface of Milgram's book, Obedience to Authority: "The question arises as to whether there is any connection between what we have studied in the laboratory and the forms of obedience we so deplored in the Nazi epoch."
The Milgram Experiment raised questions about the ethics of scientific experimentation because of the extreme emotional stress suffered by the participants. In Milgram's defense, 84 percent of former participants surveyed later said they were "glad" or "very glad" to have participated, 15 percent chose neutral responses (92% of all former participants responding).[11] Many later wrote expressing thanks. Milgram repeatedly received offers of assistance and requests to join his staff from former participants. Six years later (at the height of the Vietnam War), one of the participants in the experiment sent correspondence to Milgram, explaining why he was glad to have participated despite the stress:
While I was a subject in 1964, though I believed that I was hurting someone, I was totally unaware of why I was doing so. Few people ever realize when they are acting according to their own beliefs and when they are meekly submitting to authority… To permit myself to be drafted with the understanding that I am submitting to authority's demand to do something very wrong would make me frightened of myself… I am fully prepared to go to jail if I am not granted Conscientious Objector status. Indeed, it is the only course I could take to be faithful to what I believe. My only hope is that members of my board act equally according to their conscience…[citation needed]
The experiments provoked emotional criticism more about the experiment's implications than with experimental ethics. In the journal Jewish Currents, Joseph Dimow, a participant in the 1961 experiment at Yale University, wrote about his early withdrawal as a "teacher," suspicious "that the whole experiment was designed to see if ordinary Americans would obey immoral orders, as many Germans had done during the Nazi period."[12] Indeed, that was one of the explicitly-stated goals of the experiments. Quoting from the preface of Milgram's book, Obedience to Authority: "The question arises as to whether there is any connection between what we have studied in the laboratory and the forms of obedience we so deplored in the Nazi epoch."
That. If I had to take a guess, I'd say they probably also didn't warn people beforehand of the possibility of extreme emotional stress, which is something you're now supposed to do as long as that wouldn't defeat the purpose of your experiment.K wrote:It caused extreme emotional stress.
Still, unethical as it was, it was a tremendously important and revealing experiment.
It wasn't really all that unethical. Repeating it would be, since we know know of the effects on the participants, but the first time I don't think anyone involved suspected the psychological damage that resulted.Gelare wrote:That. If I had to take a guess, I'd say they probably also didn't warn people beforehand of the possibility of extreme emotional stress, which is something you're now supposed to do as long as that wouldn't defeat the purpose of your experiment.K wrote:It caused extreme emotional stress.
Still, unethical as it was, it was a tremendously important and revealing experiment.
It was somewhat recently repeated in some British(I think, I know it isn't American) reality TV show. There are clips on YouTube of it. I can probably find them if anyone is interested.
- CatharzGodfoot
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On the whole, participants have said (years later) that the experiment was worth conducting and many of them said that they benefited from it (according to my psychological research methods textbook). It's a controversial experiment, and would be difficult to get approved today, but I don't think that it's considered unethical by ethicists or psychologists.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
Also, knowing about the experiment, what it entailed and what the results were is one of the few pieces of information that can change people's behavior for the better just because they have that information. Something like 70% of people who haven't heard of the experiment would continue shocking the subject to the point that they would have died. My guess is that almost none of the people (we can make exceptions for truly disturbed individuals) who know about it would.CatharzGodfoot wrote:On the whole, participants have said (years later) that the experiment was worth conducting and many of them said that they benefited from it (according to my psychological research methods textbook). It's a controversial experiment, and would be difficult to get approved today, but I don't think that it's considered unethical by ethicists or psychologists.
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One of the more clear examples of the importance of knowing history so that you don't repeat it.Neeeek wrote:Also, knowing about the experiment, what it entailed and what the results were is one of the few pieces of information that can change people's behavior for the better just because they have that information. Something like 70% of people who haven't heard of the experiment would continue shocking the subject to the point that they would have died. My guess is that almost none of the people (we can make exceptions for truly disturbed individuals) who know about it would.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
But they're still repeating it.CatharzGodfoot wrote:One of the more clear examples of the importance of knowing history so that you don't repeat it.
Parthenon wrote:But they're still repeating it.CatharzGodfoot wrote:One of the more clear examples of the importance of knowing history so that you don't repeat it.
In the spirit of the "willing to do anything ordered on a T.V. show"...
I'll one up you! Sort of. What the fuuuuuck.
[edit: replaced youtube link with a higher quality version]
Last edited by erik on Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
- CatharzGodfoot
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Which proves my point.Parthenon wrote:But they're still repeating it.CatharzGodfoot wrote:One of the more clear examples of the importance of knowing history so that you don't repeat it.
[Edit] Although it seems likely that they were given incentive to continue electrocuting the 'contestant', which would make it a different experiment.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack