Warlock (Take 5, Version 12, Set 3, Section 6, Clause 2)

[Kaelik]

A complete Retard talking out his ass

Stop. Really, stop. When you start talking about dishonesty please take a good look at yourself.

Lets count the valid turning attempts of a level 8 Cleric shall we? Now, the text of Divine Metamagic states that "... you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead ...". So, the only valid turning attempts are from Turn Undead, not Turn Lycanthropes or Rebuke Air elementals or whatever bullshit turn attempts you have from domains.

So, lets say that somehow he gets turn undead and greater turn undead, probably from radiant servant of pelor, as well as charisma of 14. He has 9 Normal turning attempts, and 9 Greater turnng attempts, for a total of 18 turn attempts. He also has spent 78% of his wealth on Nightsticks getting another 12 turns. Thats, let me, see... 18, plus 12, is only 30. Somehow I'm missing another 33 turn attempts. But wait a moment. Lets wave our hands in the air and pretend that nightsticks give four turn attempts to all forms of turning. Thats another 12 valid attempts. But it's still only 42 turns.

Somehow you've made up twenty turn attempts out of fucking nowhere, haven't bothered backing this up from anywhere, and have stated that this is "easy".

What the fuck Kaelik? What the fuck?

Hey dumb shit. Remember when I said Extra Turning grants four per source of turning? Maybe you should, I don't know, take a fucking Extra Turning feat or two or twelve.

A level 8 Cleric has 6 feats. There's a Domain that grants Extra Turning and is all about killing undead. You have 3+Domains, depending on character, and there are ways to get Turn undead and Rebuke undead.

You should have at least Turn and Rebuke or Turn and Greater Turning, and you should have, in addition to DMM and Persist/Extend, 3-4 Extra Turnings, which equates to an additional 32 turn attempts. Hey fuck, that's like, a lot of turn undead attempts right? And fuck it all if you happen to buy Night sticks or Holy Pendants or any other source of additional turn attempts in addition to your natural 50 turn attempts before items at all.

And then you ignore the actual rules you wrote down yourself. A level 11 non-specialised wizard gets one level 6 spell per day as standard. To get the two more you refer to they'd need an intelligence of 30. Hmmm... somehow I get the feeling thats not going to fucking happen.

But lets ignore rules and logic and assume thats the case. They'd still only have three highest level spell options. The Warlock gets that just from their domain and spheres, let alone their actual mindpool. They can have more spell choice just by having one level 6 spell known. By having two of each level they beat specialised wizards and if they choose to they can beat hyper-specialised wizards.

1) You are fucking retarded. Of course the Wizard has 30 Int at level 11, I specifically drew an almost every two level anaylsis of a sad caster's primary attribute in this fucking thread, and level 10 is where you get 30 fucking Int/Wis. I was comparing a 30 Wisdom Warlock with a 30 Int Wizard, and so if you want to be stupid, we can take away one of the Wizards spells and also take away a buff from the Lock, and a spell known.

2) Domains and Spheres are lists. You choose them at specific levels, and then you just have that list. Would you rather choose any 3 spells from every single book ever (Wizard's choice) or get two attack spells that probably have durations and aren't even that good for you anyway, and one Domain spell which may or may not be good, depending, since even a really good domain has a like 3-4 shitty spells in it?

I assume that you of course choose the pre set lists because you have proven yourself to be functionally retarded with every other word you've said.

I agree that you're right about some things- long term buffs are a lot less effective for them and short duration debuffs aren't as good. As well as the fact that I over exaggerated how effective Wraithstrike is. But that doesn't change the fact that the class is still too good. If this is comparable to an Incantrix without using up feats, skill points or taking prestige classes then its too good.

But a lot of DMs won't allow divine metamagic at all, or multiple nightsticks, or incantrixes, or wizards getting any spells they want, or... Your balance point is way above the tomes. If thats deliberately the case then state so above the class but otherwise stop lying and pretending that this is balanced to the normal standards of classes.

Except that the Warlock is a worse Cleric Archer than a Cleric Archer by about a billion points, and so has a worse defense and worse offense than a Cleric Archer, and no one cares.

It also has a worse defense and worse offense than an Incantatrix.

The problem with those characters is not that they have good defenses. The problem is that they have level inappropriate offense.

When you attack at +32/+32/+32/+32/+32/+32/+29... For 3d6+30 damage on each shot, That's a bigger deal than your defenses. And since a Warlock Archer would have literally half as many attacks for half as much damage at maximum (because fully half those attacks and damage come from Polymorph) it's not as big a deal.

Likewise, Incantatrixes at level 15 are bullshit, because they are completely undetectable to everything. But at level 14 and lower, they are bullshit because they throw around 400 damage ranged touch attacks that bypass any and all resistances/immunities, or because they toss out 30+Negative levels per spell, or because they so save stun CL targets for two rounds and then they have to make two saves to even get to act after that.

The fact that they might be under a blink effect all day is not a big deal.

[Parthenon]

So, you are saying that they have all three of turn undead, rebuke undead and greater turning? And that they then have extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic, and three extra turnings. At level 8.

Okay, fine, I forgot that you can take extra turning multiple times. My mistake. You can indeed get 63 turn/rebuke undead attempts by level 8 assuming that you can get all three of turn, greater turn and rebuke. Impossible if you can't, and I've no idea how, but I'll assume you can.

But, you are limited by:

• Your race- human only to get enough feats
• Your domains- you need Planning, Sun and Undeath and so can't choose ones you actually want.
• Your feats- you need to spend all of them on this and so can't get actually good domains.
• Some other limitation that gets you both turn and rebuke undead.
• Your wealth- you spend nearly 80% of your wealth
• Your stats- you need a Cha of 14 which means that your Str or Con can't be as good.

So in order to do this you are tightly limited in just about every way and can't even get Power Attack. In no way is this easy.

Now if I remember rightly, my original point was that this is unbalanced because the Warlock is comparable with no feat cost or character limitations. Whereas the Cleric is incredibly limited by everything they need to do in order to do the same.

---

Yeah, I was being retarded about 30 int at level 11. Sorry.

However, the spheres and domains are supposed to be level appropriate options which together with being able to choose another two spells from actually anywhere rather than three from highly contested everywhere means that they still get more choices.

I mean, two excellent and three pretty good choices is better than three excellent choices. And so they have more choice than the best casters. Your false analogies of either your mindpool against the wizard's three choices or the preset list of three spells against the wizard's three choices are both stupid and dishonest since its actually the mindpool and the three preset lists.

I'm saying that with no costs they have more choices than the best casters and can do things that take all of a character's resources to do. And saying that it's fine because its worse than the incantrix or polymorph bullshit is stupid. Just because Quicksilver is slower than the Flash doesn't mean that it's fair to compare olympic athletes to him.

Seriously, type out a sentence saying at what power level you think this is below the name of the class and I'd be fine with it. I'm complaining because it's way better than the expected standard of a transmuter wizard.

[Mask_De_H]

Where are you getting the open feats for turning on the Cleric? How is having more high level spells known than a comparable Wizard who isn't getting hardcore shit past the radar not as good? How does it feel to be completely bugfuck insane in thinking that swinging with a full fledged Incantatrix at level 8 is weaksauce? This class is prime minister of Crazytown, and no amount of butthurt bluster can fix that. Listen to ubernoob.

In before cocks, barrels, retards, etc.

[Kaelik]

So, you are saying that they have all three of turn undead, rebuke undead and greater turning? And that they then have extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic, and three extra turnings. At level 8.

Okay, fine, I forgot that you can take extra turning multiple times. My mistake. You can indeed get 63 turn/rebuke undead attempts by level 8 assuming that you can get all three of turn, greater turn and rebuke. Impossible if you can't, and I've no idea how, but I'll assume you can.

But, you are limited by:

• Your race- human only to get enough feats
• Your domains- you need Planning, Sun and Undeath and so can't choose ones you actually want.
• Your feats- you need to spend all of them on this and so can't get actually good domains.
• Some other limitation that gets you both turn and rebuke undead.
• Your wealth- you spend nearly 80% of your wealth
• Your stats- you need a Cha of 14 which means that your Str or Con can't be as good.

So in order to do this you are tightly limited in just about every way and can't even get Power Attack. In no way is this easy.

Now if I remember rightly, my original point was that this is unbalanced because the Warlock is comparable with no feat cost or character limitations. Whereas the Cleric is incredibly limited by everything they need to do in order to do the same.

Hey, remember that time I told you to stop lying? What you may not have known is that it actually applies all the time, including now.

52 turning attempts is zero Gp and only two out of 3. I literally just fucking said that in the post you quoted and then lied about. Go die in a fire you lying asshole.

Until you stop lying like an asshole, I'm not going to bother dealing with you.

However, the spheres and domains are supposed to be level appropriate options which together with being able to choose another two spells from actually anywhere rather than three from highly contested everywhere means that they still get more choices.

I mean, two excellent and three pretty good choices is better than three excellent choices. And so they have more choice than the best casters. Your false analogies of either your mindpool against the wizard's three choices or the preset list of three spells against the wizard's three choices are both stupid and dishonest since its actually the mindpool and the three preset lists.

You know what some badass Domains and Spheres are?
Stone, Violition, Travel.

All three of those are regularly chosen for their fucktastically awesome spells.

At level 11, a Warlock with those three gets: Find the Path, Geas, and Move Earth.

A level 11 Wizard gets Planar Binding, Acid Fog (which he can use well), and Fleshshiver.

One of those is not like the other.

But even more annoying and stupid, is that you keep talking bullshit about how h has more choices blah blah blah. No, he doesn't, I stopped at level fucking 4 spells because the Warlock ran out. You want to be a whiny fucking bitch and tell me that Find the Path is as good as Fleshshiver, fuck you, fine.

Warlock starts with Wisdom 31, and therefore 41 mindpool space.

Level 1: Wizard has 7 spell slots. -3 = 4 Mindpool =37
Level 2: Another 7 or 4, for Mindpool =29
Level 3: Wizard has 6 or 3 Mindpool =20
Level 4: Wizard has 5 or 2 Mindpool =12
Level 5: Wizard has 4 or 1 Mindpool =7.
Level 6 cancels.

So yes, if you can look me in the eye and tell me that the balance point is non specialized Wizards with no items and that the worst spell on any sphere or domain list is as good as the bset spells a Wizard can pick, the Warlock has more choices.

Or you accept reality, in which Wizards actually have more choices, and Warlocks have more uses, and that's really the only thing you care about, because you are really just bitching about uses per day and nothing else.

I'm saying that with no costs they have more choices than the best casters and can do things that take all of a character's resources to do. And saying that it's fine because its worse than the incantrix or polymorph bullshit is stupid. Just because Quicksilver is slower than the Flash doesn't mean that it's fair to compare olympic athletes to him.

And I'm saying that literally everything in the above paragraph is false.

They don't have more choices, they can't do things that take all the resources of those casters. Polymorph is a real spell which really exists, and is really cast by specialist transmuters. Saying "If you can cast Polymorph, you are better than this class" is not a shenanigan, it's called casting the spell.

And fuck you and your terrible analogy. The Tome Fighter is not an Olympic Athlete. The Conduit of the Lower Planes laughs at how Warlocks can't even cast EBT on ever square inch of battlefield. The Specialist Conjurer Wizard who is much more fragile than a Warlock but casts Glitterdust is not worried about looking weak in the party, because he just cast fucking glitterdust, a spell so much better than what the warlock cast that he doesn't care.

I'm only saying that the class is not as good as the DMM Persist Cleric or Incantatrix because you fucking brought them up. He is worse than both those characters in literally every single way (okay, he has more skills than a DMM Persist Cleric). He has fewer buffs, worse buffs, worse attacks, and no ability cast /dead no save. He is worse than both those characters in every way. A statement which is also true of the PHB Monk.

It's obviously stronger than a PHB Monk, but fuck, that's all you've established so far.

Seriously, type out a sentence saying at what power level you think this is below the name of the class and I'd be fine with it. I'm complaining because it's way better than the expected standard of a transmuter wizard.

Seriously fuck you. No one else has to type out sentences about what power level it is supposed to be because a) You are supposed to figure it out from reading the class. (general you, since you personally are clearly too stupid to figure it out) b) This is TGD, it's assumed that the class is designed for Tome Power level. Which this is. So suck a nut and die.

[Kaelik]

Where are you getting the open feats for turning on the Cleric? How is having more high level spells known than a comparable Wizard who isn't getting hardcore shit past the radar not as good? How does it feel to be completely bugfuck insane in thinking that swinging with a full fledged Incantatrix at level 8 is weaksauce?

?? The... Feats? I have no idea what you are even asking.

2) Having more high level spells comes at the expense of lower level spells at all, and a crippled ability to use duration spells. And what Hardcore shit? The Wizard is getting hardcore shit, the Warlock is not.

3) I take it you are retarded then? You took my argument "A Warlock is worse than an Incantatrix by a great deal in both active buffs and offensive power" to mean equal to?

So you think PHB Monks are broken because they can also swing with incantatrixes, since apparently your definition of swing with is "be worse than in ever possible way."

[Prak]

I don't know what builds either of you are thinking, specifically, but, assuming the entire point is to get as many Turn Undead uses as possible (plus have some DMM) I can get 73 Turn Undeads and Turn Greater Undeads per day, and still have 3 DMM feats.

Human Clr6 of Sunny Undeath/Ex Radiant Servant of Pelor2

• Base Turn Undead: 8 (assuming Cha 20)
• Sun Domain: 1 Greater Turn Undead
• 3 Nightsticks: +12 Turn Undead and Greater Turn Undead (it's exactly like Turn Undead, so we can count it, just like Extra Rage will increase Rage, Fury, Frenzy, etc.)
• Extra Turning x4(take it thrice, one more from the Undeath Domain): +16 each
• Extra Greater Turn Undead: +8 Greater Turn Undeads

On the other hand, I don't know where the Cleric gets Polymorph from, and I don't know what DMM you'd use, but it's fairly simple to get enough turns to be pretty damned comfortable.

[Parthenon]

@Kaelik:

Calm down. You're getting pissed off and not actually dealing with my arguments. My first (well, second) statement was that this is a problem because Clerics have a large cost to be able to have lots of persistent spells compared to none for the Warlock. I was talking about both monetary and opportunity cost there.

You ignore all the costs by talking about 52 turning attempts being 0gp and two domains out of three? Let me work that out a moment. Sun, Undeath and RSoP, but even so you haven't even hinted at how to get all three of turn, rebuke and greater turn, but just handwaved it away. This conversation wouldn't have been an argument if you'd spent half the time insulting me on sketching out a build that does so with little to no cost.

Prak's build as an example without the nightsticks is only 49 turns and requires a Cha of 20. Thats a huge fucking opportunity cost. You need to be human, are extremely limited by domains and need a fucking crazy charisma. And even then you don't have enough feats to get DMM Persistent.

But tell me how to get turn, rebuke and greater turn undead at once as well as polymorph (since noone else seems to have any idea how) without giving up caster levels or other such pissing about and I'll accept that by using up all your character choices you can beat what the Warlock does for free.

And in terms of power level, this is more powerful than a transmuter wizard. Blatantly. And since the Tome power level was specifically stated to be around that level of power, this is more powerful than the Tome power level. So yes, if you're going to have a broken class with the justification that its not as bad as a polymorph abusing Cleric Archer or the Incantrix, then you should say that it is more powerful than the rest of the Tome stuff.

---

@Prak_Anima:
I have no fucking clue how you manage to have that build. You say a cleric of sunny undeath so you don't have planning. So, you need to have extend, persistent, dmm persistent and three extra turnings. Thats 6 feats. A level 8 human only gets four. Where do the other two feats come from? One I can ignore and pretend I missed an opprtunity, but two is getting silly.

Or if I take you literally and you actually do have three DMM feats, to have 3 DMM feats you need a minimum of 6 feats- the metamagic feat and the dmm for that individual metamagic, meaning a minimum of 9 feats, or more than one a level.

And since Kaelik isn't likely to tell me, how do you get turn, rebuke and greater turn all at once?

[Prak]

I wasn't able to swing Turn and Rebuke without having to do a True Nec. or the like (though I didn't think of Dread Nec, that would work and give another 8 rebukes, drop the second Radiant Servant level).

on feat numbers, I assumed flaws, but forgot to mention that in the rundown. and I wasn't clear on what people meant by divine metamagic, so I was thinking just Divine feats, but still, that allows extend, persistent and Dmm persistent.

Ok, new class scheme: Clr5 of Sunny Tactical Undeath/Dread Nec1/Divine Emissary1/Ex Radiant Servant1

that gives Turn, Rebuke and Greater Turn, the Sun, Undeath and Planning Domains, and you can still have Extra Turning x3, Persist Spell, DMM: Persist*, and Twin Spell

*am I missing something? DMM doesn't require you to know the mm as written. If I'm not missing something, then you've got another feat to play with.

Then you have the three nightsticks.

However, this makes the turn/rebuke/gtr turn count 36/36/37 for a total of 109.

edit: that math should probably be a bit more explicit... (and it made me notice a math error, so...)
Cha 20 (18 to start, +2 from levels.) means 8 turns and rebukes
Sun domain means 1 Gtr Turn
Extra Greater Turning gives +8 Greater Turnings
Undeath Domain gives Extra Turning, and taking Extra Turning three times gives +16 each
Each Nightstick gives +4, total of +12 for each of Turn, Rebuke and Gtr Turn

so Base of 8 for each, +1 Gtr because of sun, and effectively 7 Extra Turnings(+28)=109

Fun thing: assuming this character wants to do damage, he can take Violate Spell and a divine style feat from a third party splat that makes damage unhealable by magic, and cast suitably altered attack spells half the damage of which can't be healed by any means.

[Red_Rob]

Am I missing something? The original post mentions the following change to the Persist Metamagic Feat:

Duration Spell [Metamagic]

Extend: You may double the duration of a spell whose duration is not concentration, instantaneous, or permanent. This increases the ML by +1.

Persist: You may increase the duration of a spell one or two steps along the following chart. Each step increases the ML by +3. If the duration of the spell is not on the chart, you cannot improve it in this manner.
1round/level -> 1min/level -> 10min/level -> 1hr/level -> 24 hours

So, if you are using these Metamagic rules then the Cleric can never persist 1/round buffs to longer than 10min/level. The Warlock can persist them all day.

Advantage Warlock?

[Kaelik]

You ignore all the costs by talking about 52 turning attempts being 0gp and two domains out of three? Let me work that out a moment. Sun, Undeath and RSoP, but even so you haven't even hinted at how to get all three of turn, rebuke and greater turn, but just handwaved it away. This conversation wouldn't have been an argument if you'd spent half the time insulting me on sketching out a build that does so with little to no cost.

Partheon. You are clearly too stupid to live.

I have stated explicitly on three seperate occasions that you don't need all three, but only two of the three to get these numbers.

Two of the three. Two of the Three. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two. Two.

Can you stop being retarded yet? Or do I have to explicitly tell you a fifth time after this?

But tell me how to get turn, rebuke and greater turn undead at once as well as polymorph (since noone else seems to have any idea how) without giving up caster levels or other such pissing about and I'll accept that by using up all your character choices you can beat what the Warlock does for free.

Any Cleric at level 5+ Can have Turn and Rebuke by merely having been Neutral, and then turned good and taken a level of Holy whatever of whatever in Complete Divine, or any other class that grants Turn if you don't have it.

A RSoP gets Greater. Therefore, lots of fucking people can get TWO OUT OF THREE. Also anyone who is neutral and takes a Dread Necro dip, but that loses a CL so who cares.

Two out of three, and a Cha of 14 is all it takes to have 49 turn attempts with no items at level 8. TWO OUT OF THREE. Not Three. TWO.

If you are a level 8 Cleric with one level of Holy Bullshit PrC and one and only one domain choice as either undeath or planning, you get 42 turn attempts for zero Gp. If you have both, you get 50 turn attempts.

If you Are a formally neutral cleric who took a level of Hoy bullshit and now worships Pelor, and now takes a level of HSoP, you have all three, and then you have, with Cha of 14, and all three domains chosen for you by the build, 75 turn attempts before items.

And in terms of power level, this is more powerful than a transmuter wizard. Blatantly. And since the Tome power level was specifically stated to be around that level of power, this is more powerful than the Tome power level. So yes, if you're going to have a broken class with the justification that its not as bad as a polymorph abusing Cleric Archer or the Incantrix, then you should say that it is more powerful than the rest of the Tome stuff.

Do I have to tell you to stop being retarded again? Tome Power level was once upon a time explicitly stated as being that power level, and then it power level crept upward until anyone who actually believes that is a fucking retard.

If you think the Dungenomicon Monk without Tome feats is as strong as a Transmuter Wizard, then how can the Dungeonomicon Monk with Tome feats be just as strong?

Tome has scaled up considerably with time, and most classes 100% the same game test these days, just try to fail with a Soulborn/Tome Fighter/Infinite Army Conduit/Spherelock/ect.

And once again. You are the fucktard that brought up DMM Persist Clerics. I have established that Warlocks are 100% weaker in every single possible category other than skills than a DMM Cleric. You have not even remotely established that Warlocks are more powerful than Transmuter Wizards, although they should be, since every other Tome class is.

[Kaelik]

I have made some significant changes to the class:

They are:

1) Overcharge burn times greatly reduced, and Overcharge modified so that generally speaking, all buffs with by default be overcharged. (Or all but one, if the Warlock relies entirely on instantaneous attack spells that are not overcharged themselves.)

2) Maintenance slots Quite reduced across levels, and mechanic changed so that slot is not needed left open for instantaneous cast spells.

3) Added Domain Acquisition at level 8.

4) Greatly reduced Mindpool size.

New charts:

1) Number of spells in mindpool each level, assuming maximum level spells and optimized Wisdom:

1)Wisdom 20: 5 level spells known + Sphere.

3)Wisdom 21: 2 level 2 spells and 1 level 1 + Sphere and Domain.

5)Wisdom 23: 2 level 3 spells + 2 Spheres and Domain.

7)Wisdom 24: 3 level 4 spells and 1 level 2 spell + 2 Spheres and Domain.

9)Wisdom 25: 3 level 5 spells and 1 level 1 spell + 2 Spheres and 2 Domains.

11)Wisdom 31: 3 level 6 spells and 1 level 4 spell + 2 Spheres and 2 Domains.

13)Wisdom 33: 4 level 7 spells + 2 Spheres and 3 Domains.

15)Wisdom 33: 6 level 8 spells + 2 Spheres and 3 Domains.

17)Wisdom 35: 5 level 9 spells and 1 level 8 spell + 2 Spheres and 3 Domains.

19)Wisdom 36: 6 level 9 spells and 1 level 2 spell + 2 Spheres and 3 Domains.

Number of active spells per level:

1) 1.
3) 3.
5) 5.
7) 7.
9) 7.
11) 10.
13) 13.
Basically level from here on out.

Now that I am basically done running all the types of Warlocks I could think of through the Same Game Test, I want to run some other peoples ideas/have them run them. Anyone have something they want to see at a given level, let me know.

[ubernoob]

Let's look at a level 13 warlock... (Aasimar starting with an 18 base wisdom +2 racial +3 level +5 wish + 5 enhancement +9 insight = 42)

He uses 15 buffs and has one open slot for casting spells whenever he feels like it. His buffs:
1) Divine Power
Bite of the Werebear
Divine Favor
Giant Size
5) Greater Blink
Greater Mirror Image
True Seeing
Ray Deflection
Owl's Insight
10) Arrowmind
Phantom Stag
Favor of the Martyr
Guided Shot
Haste
15) Elemental Body

Ok, so he runs around at 300' per round, uses a magic bow (+5 at this level) to attack at
13 bab 16 wis 1 haste 5 enhancement -8 size 6 luck = +33/33/31/31
for
6d6+5 enhancement + 13 PBS + 13 Blitz +26 str = 6d6+57 per hit

Now, that's in addition to being able to toss down a poison or kelpstrand whenever he fucking feels like it. Both if we drop guided shot or whatever.

Kaelik, this class is *still* too fucking good. It pulls off the cleric archer better than the god damn cleric archer and that is BAD.

Edit: He has a higher to hit bonus in melee and deals more damage in melee should that ever come up.

[Prak]

well, in my mind, a warlock should feel more demonic. The common fluff is that people make pacts with demons or devils to gain magic power, but very frequently the magic isn't actually all that demonic... there should be more fire, cold and demon manipulating...

On the other hand, Warlock is said to mean "oath breaker" so another way to do a warlock is someone who got their power by making an oath and breaking it... I have no clue how to convey this idea mechanically, except perhaps with a bonus to will saves against the mental effects of the person they swore an oath to, or something...

[Kaelik]

Great, now try it again without Owl's Insight and at any level before access to Giant Size.

[ubernoob]

Great, now try it again without Owl's Insight and at any level before access to Giant Size.

Your class can use owls' insight, so it does. Giant size is good, so it gets used as soon as it gets access to it. Don't fucking tell me to skew the comparison.

Edit: If you haven't realized this, I'll spell it out. Basing active buffs on your stat is bad design. Just give a fucking number and stick to it.

[Kaelik]

Great, now try it again without Owl's Insight and at any level before access to Giant Size.

Your class can use owls' insight, so it does. Giant size is good, so it gets used as soon as it gets access to it. Don't fucking tell me to skew the comparison.

Edit: If you haven't realized this, I'll spell it out. Basing active buffs on your stat is bad design. Just give a fucking number and stick to it.

Well my class can't use Owl's Insight so it doesn't. And Giant Size is good but is also level seven, and so sees exactly zero use for 12 levels. If the Warlock can't out Cleric Archer the Cleric for 12 levels, (and honestly, can't at level 13 either, since a Cleric Archer is running similar levels with more attacks thanks to polymorph) that's not a problem.

[Prak]

Kaelik, how is a cleric getting polymorph? it's not on their spell list, and no domain in Defenders o/t faith, Forgotten Realms, Core or Complete Divine give access to it.

[ubernoob]

Great, now try it again without Owl's Insight and at any level before access to Giant Size.

Your class can use owls' insight, so it does. Giant size is good, so it gets used as soon as it gets access to it. Don't fucking tell me to skew the comparison.

Edit: If you haven't realized this, I'll spell it out. Basing active buffs on your stat is bad design. Just give a fucking number and stick to it.

Well my class can't use Owl's Insight so it doesn't. And Giant Size is good but is also level seven, and so sees exactly zero use for 12 levels. If the Warlock can't out Cleric Archer the Cleric for 12 levels, (and honestly, can't at level 13 either, since a Cleric Archer is running similar levels with more attacks thanks to polymorph) that's not a problem.

You do realize that we can just keep this going with you point banning every good spell until we find a list of balanced spells, right?

Or we could skip straight to the end- scrap the entire class and write a class with explicit, level appropriate effects. The reason there isn't a dumpster diving open ended class is because that is bad design. It's that simple. Your class is fucked from square one if you want it balanced because it *has no limitations* at all.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, how is a cleric getting polymorph? it's not on their spell list, and no domain in Defenders o/t faith, Forgotten Realms, Core or Complete Divine give access to it.

Primarily in the form of Greater Anyspell for Draconic Polymorph.

UMDing Runestaffs, a bunch of other obscure items from various setting books, taking Extra spell, or using Polymorph Any Object once high enough also work.

Depends a lot on what level you are building for, but if you are starting at post Giant Size level, there are plenty of ways. At lower levels, you have to actually consider it in your character design.

[Kaelik]

You do realize that we can just keep this going with you point banning every good spell until we find a list of balanced spells, right?

Or we could skip straight to the end- scrap the entire class and write a class with explicit, level appropriate effects. The reason there isn't a dumpster diving open ended class is because that is bad design. It's that simple. Your class is fucked from square one if you want it balanced because it *has no limitations* at all.

Or I could point ban spells which duplicate an arbitrarily large number of spells, and a spell that adds a non standardized bonus type to stats that doesn't exist in comparable for anywhere else.

Because of course, you could have pointed to any other spells you want to abuse if there were any more spells for you to point to, and the reason you didn't is because you just ran out, since you only picked the one that breaks the RNG beyond the one I specifically spelled out in my post.

[ubernoob]

You do realize that we can just keep this going with you point banning every good spell until we find a list of balanced spells, right?

Or we could skip straight to the end- scrap the entire class and write a class with explicit, level appropriate effects. The reason there isn't a dumpster diving open ended class is because that is bad design. It's that simple. Your class is fucked from square one if you want it balanced because it *has no limitations* at all.

Or I could point ban spells which duplicate an arbitrarily large number of spells, and a spell that adds a non standardized bonus type to stats that doesn't exist in comparable for anywhere else.

Because of course, you could have pointed to any other spells you want to abuse if there were any more spells for you to point to, and the reason you didn't is because you just ran out, since you only picked the one that breaks the RNG beyond the one I specifically spelled out in my post.

Actually, I'm just lazy. Your class is still shitty from a design standpoint. Having your thing be "steal other people's shit" is not a valid design point for the same reason "jack of all trades" isn't- you either suck or are better than everyone else. Having a distinct ability list is the only reason to have a different character ever. Having a class that is defined by not having any distinct abilities of its own is... bad.

[Kaelik]

Actually, I'm just lazy. Your class is still shitty from a design standpoint. Having your thing be "steal other people's shit" is not a valid design point for the same reason "jack of all trades" isn't- you either suck or are better than everyone else. Having a distinct ability list is the only reason to have a different character ever. Having a class that is defined by not having any distinct abilities of its own is... bad.

No Uber, you ran out two posts ago when you had to bring out Owl's Insight, because that wouldn't even work if I just replaced "Wis" with "Int."

But I'll address your sort of content of this post.

The stick isn't "steal other peoples shit." It's "have a very small list of spells that you can use at will" + "Have a specific number of active spell effects at a given time."

It's not stealing anyone else's stick anymore than A Wizard is stealing a stick by using the Wizard list.

It has a list of possible spells. That list happens to be all of them, because the purpose of the class is to represent a specific way of using ongoing spells, and I don't want to have to sort through multiple lists to figure out what combination of spells represents the archetype of being given X ongoing spells well.

As currently designed, it can be used to Cleric Archer and be almost as good as a Tome Fighter, or it could be used to save or die every round, and be just as good as a Conduit.

Or it could be used to actually party buff, something most other classes don't do well.

And those are basically the same things that the Wizard is supposed to be able to do. So no, it's not stealing someone else's stick, unless you think the Cleric/Druid/Wizard/ect are all just stealing the Bard's stick of casting spells, since apparently the order a class is written in matters more than what it does.

EDIT: I'll also not that your hypothetical 13 Warlock has spells more than double the mindpool of that character, even with Owl's Insight.

While you could point to various things, like lower level spell lists or domains granting some of those spells, I bet that it's still a completely illegal character which can't even store all those spells in the first place.

[ubernoob]

Or you could just do something simple like not base it on your stat. "A Warlock can have 6 active spells with base durations shorter than hour/level and only two of these can be of the warlock's top level" is a fine mechanic. Seriously, just don't do that retarded shit where it's based off of a stat (which can vary wildly from game to game). Having a +2 to your stat add an additional spell active all the time is ten kinds of retarded.

[Kaelik]

Or you could just do something simple like not base it on your stat. "A Warlock can have 6 active spells with base durations shorter than hour/level and only two of these can be of the warlock's top level" is a fine mechanic. Seriously, just don't do that retarded shit where it's based off of a stat (which can vary wildly from game to game). Having a +2 to your stat add an additional spell active all the time is ten kinds of retarded.

Or, you can just base it on the stat if the stat has an easily calculated maximum which is also the level you want it at, and you want people to have to trade off between casting ability and physical stats, so someone trying to Cleric Melee has to actually keep their wisdom up instead of dumping it for Strength.

And that way, people, like for example you, can't exceed the intentional cap, and it can also progress as you level just fine.

[Koumei]

If there's one thing we learned from the old WotC forums*, it's that the solution to this is to make a level 20 Warlock and a level 20 Wizard or Cleric and have them face off, 1 on 1, in an arena, out of context. This will clearly reveal the truth and solve all problems. I designate the Flasked Avenger to be the special guest referee.

*aside from "It's full of retards" and "many people don't know what fallacy means, unless there's a new definition of 'something I disagree with'."