They Hate Us For Our Freedoms

[Ganbare Gincun]

Wikileaks has obtained and decrypted this previously unreleased video footage from a US Apache helicopter in 2007. It shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad. They are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred. Wikileaks released this video with transcripts and a package of supporting documents on April 5th, 2010 on http://collateralmurder.com. And I'm sure there's more to come.

Good job, guys.

[Zinegata]

Dunno really. According to Al Jazeera (Yes, I watch it. Stop staring) the US Military cleared the pilots as they were following Rules of Engagement. Which remain classified.

*shrugs*

[The Lunatic Fringe]

Fucking hell...


NB: the rules of engagement were also leaked. Here they are: http://collateralmurder.com/en/resources.html

[Zinegata]

The Al Jazeera report didn't mention the RoE leak. However, they did confirm that a US military spokesman said that the tape was indeed genuine.

And that the reporter was basically an idiot for running around on his own without a big PRESS sign written on his chest as is usually mandated in a war zone.

[The Lunatic Fringe]

He was walking down a street, he wasn't on his own, and the helicopter folks wouldn't have been able to see the "press" sign.

In any case, what about the civilians? They were by no means doing anything wrong.

[Zinegata]

He was walking down a street, he wasn't on his own, and the helicopter folks wouldn't have been able to see the "press" sign.

In any case, what about the civilians? They were by no means doing anything wrong.

I'm just reporting what was said on Al Jazeera. That's the US military side of the story and the Al Jazeera people didn't seem to want to contradict that not wearing a press sign was a bad idea.

[The Lunatic Fringe]

[patronizing]
If you are going to have an argument on the internet (or, indeed, any argument), do not cite television news unless you have to. Especially do not cite television news when the other guy is arguing from primary documents.
[/patronizing]

[Ganbare Gincun]

And that the reporter was basically an idiot for running around on his own without a big PRESS sign written on his chest as is usually mandated in a war zone.

Are you fucking serious? Only two of the people that were murdered were journalists. What's your rationalization for killing everyone else? I'm curious to know what you consider to be reasonable criteria for gunning down unarmed Iraqi civilians. Do you think the laughing and giggling was appropriate? How about how the soldiers waited with bated breath for the single survivor of their first attack - who was trying to vain to crawl away from the carnage to find somewhere to hide - to come into contact with a weapon so they would have justification to finish him off?

[mean_liar]

The press sign thing is total bullshit. For me the real question isn't how these people ended up dead - they were in a war zone and shit happens; the pilots mistook camera equipment for weapons (though the RPG ID is strange) and opened up.

The intolerable part is the completely inevitable coverup.

The US should reinstitute the draft. We'd never fight an offensive war again.

[Lich-Loved]

Would someone please post the Iraqi and/or Afghan insurgent Rules of Engagement for comparison?

[Zinegata]

And that the reporter was basically an idiot for running around on his own without a big PRESS sign written on his chest as is usually mandated in a war zone.

Are you fucking serious? Only two of the people that were murdered were journalists. What's your rationalization for killing everyone else? I'm curious to know what you consider to be reasonable criteria for gunning down unarmed Iraqi civilians. Do you think the laughing and giggling was appropriate? How about how the soldiers waited with bated breath for the single survivor of their first attack - who was trying to vain to crawl away from the carnage to find somewhere to hide - to come into contact with a weapon so they would have justification to finish him off?

Again, it's not my rationalization. That's the US side of the story. Told on Al Jazeera.

Complain to the US military if the explanation seems wanky or Al Jazeera for not questioning it.

Again, I'm just reporting what they said on the news. This is in no way my own opinion. If you want my opinion of the matter, my only answer is a shrug.

[mean_liar]

Eat a leprous dick, Lich-Loved. A war sold on lies and ambition whose negligent prosecution was hidden from the American public as completely as possible deserves to be revisited and its transgressions endlessly unveiled for hate and ridicule until ignorant chicken hawk fucks either get tired of looking like the completely heartless and brainless automatons they are, or the rest of the undecided public-at-large realizes the same.

[Lich-Loved]

Eat a leprous dick, Lich-Loved. A war sold on lies and ambition whose negligent prosecution was hidden from the American public as completely as possible deserves to be revisited endlessly until ignorant chicken hawk fucks either get tired of looking like the completely heartless and brainless automatons they are, or the rest of the undecided public-at-large realizes the same.

Dude I think you wrote that response so quickly you forgot to provide the link.

[Zinegata]

[patronizing]
If you are going to have an argument on the internet (or, indeed, any argument), do not cite television news unless you have to. Especially do not cite television news when the other guy is arguing from primary documents.
[/patronizing]

Stop being a patronizing ass.

Al Jazeera was basing its report on the official US Military report on the incident. Which they just received from the US Military (who also confirmed the tape was genuine).

The report basically cleared the pilots of wrongdoing and said the reporter was an idiot for not wearing a press sign.

You can't get a document more primary than the official US report on the investigation, at least as far as getting the US side of the story is concerned.

So stop being a patronizing ass.

[Ganbare Gincun]

The press sign thing is total bullshit. For me the real question isn't how these people ended up dead - they were in a war zone and shit happens; the pilots mistook camera equipment for weapons (though the RPG ID is strange) and opened up.

The intolerable part is the completely inevitable coverup.

Based on the evidence we have available, it doesn't look like the U.S. military has sunk to the level of Blackwater's or Halliburton's atrocities (yet). But I think 20 years from now after the war is over, we'll be able to look back and realize the extent of the atrocities that we committed during our War On Terror. Maybe we'll even realize why the rest of the world loathes us. But right now, most Americans don't really care about our soldiers, mercenaries, or contractors torturing, raping, and killing brown people. As long as we are entertained, all is well.

[Ganbare Gincun]

You can't get a document more primary than the official US report on the investigation, at least as far as getting the US side of the story is concerned.

The problem is that the report in question isn't worth the paper that it was printed on, and that what passes for news on television in America is worth even less. I could watch footage of Ernest Borgnine taking a shit for a half-hour and it would be more intellectually honest then what comes out of the mouths of the talking heads that pass for journalists in this day and age. So using these items as evidence to present an argument is ill-advised at best.

[Kaelik]

Honestly, I can exactly see the RPG ID.

It appears that it was totally wrong, but if you watch, they make the ID exactly when the guy is on one knee, holding his camera so it looks longer than it is, and it looks like he's corner peeking exactly like and RPGer lining up a shot while trying to stay in cover.

Once they got around the corner and so him no longer in that pose and with an obviously shorter "weapon" than at first appeared, they probably should have thought for a couple seconds, but I can see the mis ID when it occurs.

Also, I have no problem with them saying to themselves "just touch a weapon" ect, because that's not even wishing for him to have a weapon, it's as much a threat as anything, they are just stupidly saying it like he can hear them, just like I say "Yeah, just fucking change lanes right in front of me asshole."

No part of that other than:

1) Their total willingness to shoot on vague possibilities of weapons.
2) Their extreme over exaggeration of situation over the radio to whoever gives them shoot permissions.

Upsets me at all.

[mean_liar]

Dude I think you wrote that response so quickly you forgot to provide the link.

You are beneath contempt. You are hateful, stupid trash.

STEP 1. Undertake a grabbag of shortsighted, historically disproved methods of achieving a lasting victory against an insurgency with popular support by undermining your legitimacy and the legitimacy of your unpopular host government by mimicking the same tactics and strategies that have been the hallmarks of despised, exclusionary factions. Bonus points if you can guess which exclusionary faction in the US it's pandering to.

STEP 2: ???

STEP 3: Victory!

I wouldn't mind arguments about elements of tactics or strategy, but your profound, swaggering and worst of all prideful idiocy is appalling.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Honestly, I can exactly see the RPG ID.

Seriously? It’s a camera with a long lens. No RPG is that short. The pilot wanted to see weapons. Ergo, he saw weapons. Weapons in the hands of people that were casually strolling down the street and were not making any moves to take "battle positions" at all whatsoever.

And what about the van full of unarmed civilians (with children) that tried to help the wounded in the aftermath that they proceeded to gun down? What's the justification for blowing away those guys? Shooting at people trying to help the wounded is a war crime in and of itself. We're supposed to be helping the Iraqi people, not blowing them away in the fucking streets for shits and giggles. Instead, we randomly murder people and then cover up our crimes after the fact. And the people running the war effort know this and have publicly acknowledged this, but yet nothing is done to rectify it. It's like we're recreating the Mai Lai Massacre in microcosm all around the Middle East, and everyone is totally cool with it.

Also, I have no problem with them saying to themselves "just touch a weapon" ect, because that's not even wishing for him to have a weapon, it's as much a threat as anything, they are just stupidly saying it like he can hear them, just like I say "Yeah, just fucking change lanes right in front of me asshole."

I'd be much more willing to accept that line of reasoning if the person in question was an actual threat, as opposed to some hapless journalist that was crawling and bleeding out, dying in the street like a dog, that posed absolutely zero threat to his murderers. Was he gonna eat a fucking Senzu Bean and go Super Saiyan? No, I think they just wanted to explode what was left of his broken body, like a bunch of punk kids with a frog and an M-80.

[Zinegata]

The problem is that the report in question isn't worth the paper that it was printed on, and that what passes for news on television in America is worth even less. I could watch footage of Ernest Borgnine taking a shit for a half-hour and it would be more intellectually honest then what comes out of the mouths of the talking heads that pass for journalists in this day and age. So using these items as evidence to present an argument is ill-advised at best.

I'm not presenting an argument. I'm just reporting the news.

What you seem to be implying is that the US Military has no right to have its own opinion on the matter, because in your view it's all junk.

And that Al Jazeera is worthless when... they're the only news service that actually ran the story and made it more available to the general public outside of the Internet.

Quite myopic really.

[Lich-Loved]

Dude I think you wrote that response so quickly you forgot to provide the link.

You are beneath contempt. You are hateful, stupid trash.

STEP 1. Undertake a grabbag of shortsighted, historically disproved methods of achieving a lasting victory against an insurgency with popular support by undermining your legitimacy and the legitimacy of your unpopular host government by mimicking the same tactics and strategies that have been the hallmarks of despised, exclusionary factions. Bonus points if you can guess which exclusionary faction in the US it's pandering to.

STEP 2: ???

STEP 3: Victory!

I wouldn't mind arguments about elements of tactics or strategy, but your profound, swaggering and worst of all prideful idiocy is appalling.

Every time you denigrate me, god kills a truckload of peaceful civilians. Oh, and you are still missing that link.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I'm not presenting an argument. I'm just reporting the news.

Please. You only started this whole "I'm just presenting the news" bullshit whenever your flimsy arguments justifying this atrocity started getting torn apart like tissue paper. You're not doing me a public service - you're weakly trying to defend a war crime in the most passive-aggressive fashion possible.

What you seem to be implying is that the US Military has no right to have its own opinion on the matter, because in your view it's all junk.

Given the fact that their opinion in this matter is "it's totally cool to murder innocent people in the Middle East at any time without any justification" when the whole point of getting involved in Iraq was ostensibly to liberate the Iraqi people from the horrible tyranny of Saddam Hussein, their opinion is utterly and completely worthless.

And that Al Jazeera is worthless when... they're the only news service that actually ran the story and made it more available to the general public outside of the Internet.

If they were, as you suggested, simply reporting the U.S. side of the story, then yes, I would lump them in with Fox News and their ilk. But since you didn't bother to provide me with a link to the "news" that you were so nobly trying to "report", I found the news story myself, and it was actually put together very well. So I withdraw my criticism of Al Jazeera and double down on my criticism of your attempts to "enlighten" us with your blathering.

And they even captured the stinger at the end of the video: It's their fault for bringing their kids to a battle. Priceless.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Every time you denigrate me, god kills a truckload of peaceful civilians. Oh, and you are still missing that link.

Why would he need to provide a link for what is common knowledge to everyone that doesn't live in the Right Wing Echo Chamber? You may as well ask him to prove that the sun shines in the sky or that people are compelled to eat and drink to survive or the like.

[Juton]

I will say one thing only in the gunner's defense. The MFD's on an Apache aren't like a big screen, I think they're about 8 inches square, so in such a small image, in the heat of the moment it's possible that a camera look like an RPG.

It's hard to be sympathetic to the gunner, the pilot and the ground command if you listen to what they transmit on the radio. I know you got this type cavalier bullshit in Vietnam, I wonder if it ever cropped up in any European conflicts. Basically are these guys as zealous to kill whites as they are to kill browns and yellows.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I will say one thing only in the gunner's defense. The MFD's on an Apache aren't like a big screen, I think they're about 8 inches square, so in such a small image, in the heat of the moment it's possible that a camera look like an RPG.

Don't you think they might want to check that kind of shit before they start blowing people away? And once again: how can you justify blowing away people that came on the scene to help the wounded and dying? You know - the Good Samaritans that had kids in their cars with them? The kids that also got shot? Is al-Qaeda in Iraq mostly comprised of soccer moms or something?