Things I learned from watching a 4e game.

[K]

Ok, so WotC has the guys from Robot Chicken playing DnD for the first time. It's on their website if you want to watch it yourself. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/videos.aspx

My impressions:

--Combat takes too long, despite only getting like four rounds in each combat. I mean, they seriously spend four hours and get through three and a half rooms at one encounter per room (plus one 10 minute talking encounter). I guess that's my major complaint.

--Combat is granular, but not fun. It seriously had all the fun of counting out change. The most memorable thing that happened was when the Warforged fell down all three rounds of a combat.

--No one knows what their stuff does. Now sure, these are new players, but you have reasonably intelligent guys who can't remember what any of their powers do because none of the names correspond to what they do. Like, at all, despite the fact that they have colored cards pre-printed for them.

--Lack of interactive powers. People resort to the "I hope we have pitons" to solve dungeon problems, which is fine in my book but it doesn't say a lot about your system when even the wizard doesn't have a power to open a door in a jiffy.

--Healing surges are pretty lame. I don't know why Healing Potions are OK, but healing surges suck..... something about the concept just made me annoyed each time it came up.

--"Do something cool, game breaks almost immediately." At one point they get control of a dungeon automation, and then insta-win any encounter where it gets used (luckily, only one because they left it behind at one point).

--No one gets any loot. I don't know, but something about "search for loot" at the end of the encounter is just fun. Really fun. And these guys don't get to do it except for one point where they get to take some gold that was part of a trap, and take some obviously pre-placed items.

[Juton]

That's pretty much 4e for ya.

[RandomCasualty2]

--Combat is granular, but not fun. It seriously had all the fun of counting out change. The most memorable thing that happened was when the Warforged fell down all three rounds of a combat.

Yeah, this is mainly a complaint I've realized with 4E. The combats are long, but not memorable at all. I mean I can remember some interesting characters or monsters, but I really can't remember anything interesting that actually happened during the fight itself.

I blame it on the fact that every character does the exact same thing every fight.

[Mushroom Ninja]

To be fair, 3.5 had long combats at mid-high levels. However, 4e combats seem to last long regardless of level.

[RandomCasualty2]

To be fair, 3.5 had long combats at mid-high levels.

[Mushroom Ninja]

To be fair, 3.5 had long combats at mid-high levels.

IRL time-wise, not turn-wise.

[NineInchNall]

Yeah, it does kinda take a while to resolve a disjunction. *shudder*

Or a blackfire.

[Lich-Loved]

To be fair, 3.5 had long combats at mid-high levels.

IRL time-wise, not turn-wise.

I...still don't get your point.

At issue is that if combat takes a long time then one would fervently hope that something memorable occurs to make the time investment worthwhile. It is a huge black mark against 4e that despite the long combats, nothing memorable occurs. It really has nothing to do with long combats themselves, IRL or game rounds, just that the combat might as well have been resolved with a coin flip or die roll to save everyone a bunch of time so maybe they could get to a part of the game where something exciting actually happens.

That there is no "search for loot" afterward makes the investment in a drawn out combat even less appealing, if that is possible.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I...still don't get your point.

At issue is that if combat takes a long time then one would fervently hope that something memorable occurs to make the time investment worthwhile. It is a huge black mark against 4e that despite the long combats, nothing memorable occurs. It really has nothing to do with long combats themselves, IRL or game rounds, just that the combat might as well have been resolved with a coin flip or die roll to save everyone a bunch of time so maybe they could get to a part of the game where something exciting actually happens.

That there is no "search for loot" afterward makes the investment in a drawn out combat even less appealing, if that is possible.

I was not contesting that 4e combats can be boring and unmemorable; they can certainly end up that way very easily. I was just raising the point that long combat is by no means unique to 4e in response to :

--Combat takes too long, despite only getting like four rounds in each combat. I mean, they seriously spend four hours and get through three and a half rooms at one encounter per room (plus one 10 minute talking encounter). I guess that's my major complaint.

[Zinegata]

--No one knows what their stuff does. Now sure, these are new players, but you have reasonably intelligent guys who can't remember what any of their powers do because none of the names correspond to what they do. Like, at all, despite the fact that they have colored cards pre-printed for them.

Indeeeeeeed. I agree with all the rest, but this was the biggest wall-banger in my 4E try-out.

Also...

--Healing surges are pretty lame. I don't know why Healing Potions are OK, but healing surges suck..... something about the concept just made me annoyed each time it came up.

I tend to call Healing Surges "healing yourself with the power of positive thinking". Which tends to make people go "WTF?!"

I think it's a very apt description of wat Healing Surges ARE though... so I think that while we're ready to accept that fantasy has potions ala medicine... the power of positive thinking should strictly remain a +1 morale bonus when stabbing.

[RandomCasualty2]

I honestly never had any issues with healing surges, given we see them so often in movies. How often does the hero take a beating or whatever and then happens to be all better in the next scene or two?

Really I tended to get more annoyed with the 3E wands of CLW or diablo style chain-potion drinking than I ever did with healing surges, if only because it required way more book-keeping and slowed the game down.

In my 3.5 games now, I basically just let people healing up to max hp after taking a short rest. I seriously don't want to wait while they tick off charge after charge of a wand. I have better things to do.

[Kobajagrande]

I was not contesting that 4e combats can be boring and unmemorable; they can certainly end up that way very easily. I was just raising the point that long combat is by no means unique to 4e in response to :

And seriously, does the fact that some other completely unrelated systems have a same fault means it is a less of a fault?

[Username17]

I have a problem with Healing Surges. My problem is that they are not handled consistently. If they were a resource that had persistent meaning, I would be able to handle it. Sure, it would be a bit goofy that no amount of injury could cause damage that lasted into the next day, but seriously, whatever. You don't suffer permanent or even lasting damage in Diablo either. And honestly? That's fine.

The problem is the Healing Surges are a limited resource in combat and in the day that caps your healing except that there are powers like Healing Word that uncap your Healing Surges in individual battles and also increase their value. And to make it even worse, fucking Astral Seal allows healing without spending limited resources at all. n short, no consistency.

It's no longer "you can take incapacitating damage twice in a day and stil bounce back to full" it's "WHARRRGARBL!"

4e D&D can't even explain how its healing paradigm is supposed to work, and that means that I can't describe it in-game. And that makes it bad for a role playing game.

-Username17

[Mushroom Ninja]

I was not contesting that 4e combats can be boring and unmemorable; they can certainly end up that way very easily. I was just raising the point that long combat is by no means unique to 4e in response to :

And seriously, does the fact that some other completely unrelated systems have a same fault means it is a less of a fault?

Well, if it's a fault common to many RPGs, it hardly sets 4e apart as bad.

[souran]

I have a problem with Healing Surges. My problem is that they are not handled consistently. If they were a resource that had persistent meaning, I would be able to handle it. Sure, it would be a bit goofy that no amount of injury could cause damage that lasted into the next day, but seriously, whatever. You don't suffer permanent or even lasting damage in Diablo either. And honestly? That's fine.

The problem is the Healing Surges are a limited resource in combat and in the day that caps your healing except that there are powers like Healing Word that uncap your Healing Surges in individual battles and also increase their value. And to make it even worse, fucking Astral Seal allows healing without spending limited resources at all. n short, no consistency.

-Username17

I like the idea of healing surges, but this is the problem that has developed with them.

Healing surges should have been the games new "player fuel." They should be what is behind anything you want to be lasting.

Basically, in addition to being able to heal 1/4 of your hit points healing surges should:

Be the sole cost of all rituals

Allow players the benefit of an action point (once per combat, remove all the other rules for aquiring and using action points)

Salve of Power type effects should be built into the system. Heroic level charactes can spend a heroic surge to restore the use of an encounter power. Paragon Characters can restore encounter and encounter utility powers. Epic characters can restore daily powers (both attacks and utility)

Any healing that restores true hit points should cost SOMEBODY a healing surge. Only temp hps can be given at no cost.

This would actually give players stuff to think about using their healing surges for. The workday is based on having enough healnig surges to keep moving.

With this paradigm lasting injuries, traps and long term effects can be reintroduced to the game. Traps deal damage directly to healing surges and lasting effects prevent you from getting all your healing surges back after an extended rest.

[RobbyPants]

--Combat is granular, but not fun. It seriously had all the fun of counting out change. The most memorable thing that happened was when the Warforged fell down all three rounds of a combat.

When you say "granular", what do you mean? Broken into little pieces (like, a lot happens per round)?

[Doom]

Any healing that restores true hit points should cost SOMEBODY a healing surge. Only temp hps can be given at no cost.

No. Surges should not be transferrable. It might work in some systems, but DnD4.0 has too many problems with healing to throw in even more kinds of healing.

It's already a problem in my game, since Paladins can give their healing surges away.

Tacked onto the inconsistency Frank mentinoed is stacking bonuses to healing. The level 15 cleric in my party adds like 50 to each surge (and near that for healing effects). So, the surge recovers like 25 hit points, then the bonus, taking a character from 0 (or even -40) to unbloodied in one shot.

It's WAY too much, way too easy to administer. Basically it's that level 6 cleric Heal spell, semi-at-will.

Because of all the bonuses, the characters in my party have roughly 600 hit points apiece (100ish 'main' hit points, plus 10ish surges) when this sort of healing is accounted for. Granted, realistically only 300ish of that is available, perhaps, in a single combat (not counting stupidness like Astral Seal and the like), but characters are basically unkillable unless I go way off RAW regarding the damage monsters can deal.

Keep in mind, RAW, level 15 monsters are only supposed to hit for an expected 12ish points of damage, tops, with their basic attack. So, doing the math, a same-level monster can kill a character in 25 rounds of combat. Numerous regeneration powers, of course, make this estimate very optimistic, and irrelevant with combats only lasting 4-5 rounds anyway.

On top of that brokenness, of course, is the fact that nearly every character has several self-heals, too. Whether it's Comeback Strike, Dwarven Jockstraps, gawdawful Bardic doeseverything stuff, or whatever.

Second Wind? Give me a break, haven't seen that since level 12, there's just a ridiculous amount of healing sloshing around.

I have to put in an extra rant about the Bard stuff. He has this one power that lets him grant 12ish temp hit points whenever (ok, once a round, but bear with me) a monster gets bloodied or dropped to zero. Think about that for a second. Every monster on the board has to deal 25 points of damage just to break even with that (minions only half that, but go look and see how many minions deal 12+ points of damage on a hit).

And, of course, that's in addition to all the other healing going on.

This is about the only thing DnD4.0 has in common with Dungeons and Dragons: both collapse at high levels. Combats take about 3 hours to run at level 15; I simply cannot fit three fights into a 7 hour session no matter what I do, and the combats now are a jumble of strike/interrupt/interrupt-interrupt/interrupt-interrupt-interrupt/ohwaitIforgotamodifier-interrupt that makes every single action the monsters take past "basic attack" a mess to resolve.

The sheer weight of all the hyperspecial abilities the characters have makes RAW monsters irrelevant, as the monsters get nothing to stop any of the special powers (except, of course, for a few MM2 monsters that specifically and inexplicably are immune to 'Sleep'/Mass Unconsciousness).

Now I see why Gygax invented MR--the only way to stop "magic that can do anything" is an ability that stops "magic"...and all DnD4.0 characters are all magic, all the time. WoTC, of course, decided to focus on the 'anything', at least when 'anything' is specifically 'sleep'.


Paladin's Certain Justice? Seriously, not much you can do about that, the solo is dazed and weakened for the encounter. Warden's RNG-breaking burst 2 permanent zone of cover? Not a thing. Pretty much any conjuration is unstoppable, actually. Blade Cascade with a RNG-breaking bonus granted from another character? Not a thing. Stupid-stupidness like Astral Seal? Not a thing. All the 'interrupt'-you-can't-make-that-attack stuff like 'Savage Parry'? Nothing.

It's not that characters should be screwed out of using their abilities all the time...but all this stuff is guaranteed to work perfectly, every time, and it's only the very rare monster, RAW, that can do anything about any of it.


The only way I can make combats challenging at this level is to load up my monsters with high doses of arbitrarium. Your attack makes all my attacks at -7? You'd think WoTC would understand how insane -7 to hit is. No problem, my monsters have auras and 'auto-damage/effect' powers. I haven't figured out a way to arbitrarily get around all the 'screwed until the start of player's next turn' stuff (ffs, that damn saving throw mechanic is there for a reason, right?)...but at this level, fights just don't make any sense, RAW monsters should just curl up and die rather than try to deal with all the unique powers that could only theoretically be stopped by unique counter-powers that generally don't exist.

Ok, closing in on full rant mode, so best stop already. I'm about ready to sit down, list all the things that went wrong, and see if I/you guys can patch it up enough to even halfway try again. I'll save that for another thread, in the near future.

[K]

--Combat is granular, but not fun. It seriously had all the fun of counting out change. The most memorable thing that happened was when the Warforged fell down all three rounds of a combat.

When you say "granular", what do you mean? Broken into little pieces (like, a lot happens per round)?

Yeh, there are lots of little systems and subsystems for things.

Maybe too much. One of the lines that sticks out in my mind was "so, its Charisma vs Reflex.... whatever that means." Obviously, that was a bit of a conceptual leap for a veteran RPG player.

[RandomCasualty2]

The problem is the Healing Surges are a limited resource in combat and in the day that caps your healing except that there are powers like Healing Word that uncap your Healing Surges in individual battles and also increase their value. And to make it even worse, fucking Astral Seal allows healing without spending limited resources at all. n short, no consistency.

It's no longer "you can take incapacitating damage twice in a day and stil bounce back to full" it's "WHARRRGARBL!"

4e D&D can't even explain how its healing paradigm is supposed to work, and that means that I can't describe it in-game. And that makes it bad for a role playing game.

I'm not really sure why you have to exactly. I mean, some special powers let people do things they otherwise couldn't. We don't really need an explanation as to why the regenerate spell can restore limbs and cure critical wounds or heal can't. That's just the way the spells work.

Now from a game balance perspective, it's actually fine to be upset about this stuff, because the powers may well break the game. Honestly I've never really played much with astral seal so I'm not even sure if it does.

But from a point of view of why some magic spells work different than others, I don't really feel like there is need for any particular in-game explanation. Conceptually there's not really much of an issue to say that if you've got a cleric or whatever, you can get more or even infinite healing. That can just be a feature of having a cleric with you. And stuff like that may well be good for the game because it makes your party care if you have a certain character.

Now you can say that's terrible game design from a balance standpoint, and you know, it probably is. The whole healing/damage system in 4E is horribly unbalanced in fact. But from a storytelling/role playing standpoint, I just don't see a problem there. We never really even get into how magical healing happens to work. I honestly have no idea how many healing surges Buffy or Angel have, I just know that they tend to get the crap kicked out of them in one scene and are alright in the next.

[hogarth]

--Combat is granular, but not fun. It seriously had all the fun of counting out change. The most memorable thing that happened was when the Warforged fell down all three rounds of a combat.

When you say "granular", what do you mean? Broken into little pieces (like, a lot happens per round)?

Also, there are a lot of fiddly little 1-round penalties/bonuses or "push 1 square" results that require accounting, but that aren't really interesting at all.

[Murtak]

When there are no clear rules and limits as to how magic works, no one really knows what a magician might be capable of. You end up with option bloat, silver bullet and problem solver spells and eventually you will have a magic solution for everything. World breakage is not far off at this point.

You can see two different models when you compare DnD magic to Shadowrun magic. DnD has a spell for pretty much every occasion. DnD has evokers, enchanters, sorcerers, necromancers, clerics, druids and a whole crapton fo lesser known casters - and as a result no one knows what magic is capable of. No one can target their weak spot, and no one can really defend against magic (or even a specific type of magic). When writing stories and adventures you will be hard pressed to tailor them to the casters in your group, let alone all casters that might play the adventure. Contrast this with Shadowrun. Magic is powerful, but also has clear limits. Magic can not raise the dead. Hence, everybody who gets killed, stays dead. Suddenly you can actually have assassins in your adventures. Magic can conceal people, but not many of them. Hence you can infiltrate small teams, but not armies, using magic. Break either of these rules, and your setting changes. DnD-style-magic is all over the place, and the few guidelines you can extrapolate (no teleportation before level 9) are sure to get broken somewhere.

The same applies to any ability. When you can expect adventurers to be able to heal up twice a day, your adventures and setting should reflect that. When you break that rule, you break the setting. You go from "heroes are tough, but you can exhaust them" to "if you don't kill the heroes with the first 30 orcs, 30,000 won't kill them either".

[mean_liar]

SR magic is pretty unconstrained, Murtak. It has something like 4 things it can't do? It's a lower, less-impressive magic out-of-the-box and you're unlikely to ever see the higher-end stuff, but the difference is more about small utility magic vs large terrain-reforming space-time warping magic.

[Username17]

SR magic is pretty unconstrained, Murtak. It has something like 4 things it can't do? It's a lower, less-impressive magic out-of-the-box and you're unlikely to ever see the higher-end stuff, but the difference is more about small utility magic vs large terrain-reforming space-time warping magic.

Spells have 9 things they can't do. But those things are pretty big. Like, they "can't alter the fabric of space time" (no teleport or time stop), and they "are not intelligent" (so no spells that make choices).

But basically yeah. Shadowrun Magic is pretty damn low key compared to D&D shit. For all the wanking they do over great dragons, there isn't one of them that can't be killed with a military mass driver.

-Username17

[Endovior]

Yeh. A good hard ambush with big nasty weapons puts dragons down hard.

...In fact, come to think of it, that's exactly what I did in the last SR game I played. A particular renegade dragon of some sort was pissing people off by attacking convoys, so we were hired to ambush it. The first few seconds of the battle were spent doing 'surprise, this truck isn't a normal semi, it's a battlewagon filled with nasty rockets of doom' while the dragon burnt off all kinds of fate points trying to not die. It ended with 'surprise, troll adept with jetpack and giant magical axe'.

I was the troll. It was awesome.

[souran]

Any healing that restores true hit points should cost SOMEBODY a healing surge. Only temp hps can be given at no cost.

No. Surges should not be transferrable. It might work in some systems, but DnD4.0 has too many problems with healing to throw in even more kinds of healing.

It's already a problem in my game, since Paladins can give their healing surges away.

This may be true but its a secondary issue. The primary issue is that any class that can heal hit points without making either the healer or the heale use a healing surge is wrecking the games resource mechanics.

Nobody plays a paladin in my common gaming group (or has not since we started a continuing campaign) so I have not had to deal with transferability issues.




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