Right, so I know O/NWod is bad but...

[Username17]

For that matter, Vampire wasn't untouched too. In my experience, the three biggest ways of playing Vampire were soap operas of the undead, dark superheroics and jokeying for power in the vampire society. Only the third wasn't expicitly stomped upon by nVampire. But Werewolf (and Changeling) wented farther than that. They completely rejected - and condemned - the core ideas of old games (or, just as commonly, the standard perception of these ideas among the Internet detractors), so the only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that they were marketed to people who hated the old games. I can remember very few people on the net who said they liked both versions of either.

No wonder, that nWoD just about killed the company.

Actually, all three were explicitly stomped on by nVampire.

• Vampire Soap Opera: Predator's Taint! Everyone has to make control tests to avoid frenzy every time a new character is added. Also, everyone is explicitly supposed to avoid you and there's no larger society to interact with. No blackmail is possible in short, nor is there anyone to look good or bad with respect to.
• Fanged Superheroes: All physical disciplines nerfed to hell and back. None of the characters have anything they can do that will make them overcome any determined opposition from random armed pedestrians.
• Jockeying for Power in Vampire Society: Did we mention that there is no Vampire Society in nVampire? Or how about the fact that none of the supernatural organizations have any power? Or that there are no social connections between cities, meaning that even if you somehow dominated everything in Santa Carla, that the vampires in Watsonville or San Jose would still have never heard of you and you couldn't even get a reservation at a vampire owned restaurant?

Justin Achilli took a giant shit on everything that anyone wanted to do in Vampire.

And yeah, he took a giant dump on Werewolf too. Probably a bigger one, since Vampire players can at least still whine about how they have wounds that do not heal and are crawling in their skin and such. But Werewolves are:

• No longer Planeteers. Indeed, they seemingly have no redeeming features at all, making one wonder why you would bother to fight for either side.
• Are no longer good at fighting. This is the big one, since it means that turning into a giant monster is basically just pointless window dressing.
• No longer get compelled o do things by wise Totems. Without the weird faux-First Nations shit, there's really no reason for the characters to bother working together or doing anything in particular.

Of the big three, the only one that survived basically intact was Mage. And yeah, they took away villains you gave a fuck about - but since Mage was all about solipsism anyway, it hardly matters. But you know what? That fucking monstrous tome (seriously monstrous: that fucking book is over three hundred thousand words) was not even written by Justin Achilli. He gets "Concept and Design" credits because he was running the company into the ground at the time, but he didn't actually write any of the damn thing. The only "Concept and Design" person who fucking chipped in to actually put words into it was Bill Bridges - who was coincidentally also the Developer. The rest of the writing was done by freelancers. Even Shadowrun freelancers like Malcolm Sheppard and Steve Kenson.

But yeah, while it's hard to find anyone who likes oVampire and nVampire, and indeed it's hard to find people who like nVampire at all, that relatively small group will spam the fuck out of you with trivial bullshit nitpicking that isn't even accurate if you bring up your bile even indirectly and couched in a lot of facts and weasel words On rpg.net.

-Username17

[Prak]

there are actually a very few things about nWod I like the the idea of, namely Promethians and a book that lets players make up their own shape shifters. Other than that, I really don't give a shit about nwod.

[TheFlatline]

there are actually a very few things about nWod I like the the idea of, namely Promethians

My problem with Promethians was the whole "eventually nobody is going to want to be around you, so you're a complete and utter loner".

Oh, and Frank, don't forget a few other things about Werewolf:

The mandatory morality path for each beastie now includes a really strange and pointless morality path for the Forsaken, and the ONLY thing to do as Forsaken is run around, kill spirits to protect your turf, and occasionally fight the pure breeds.

Which to me is a big fat pile of fail, but at least it's more than Vampire's brood and backstab the rest of the prince's vampire society because a city 20 minutes away is forever beyond your ability to reach due to designer fiat. Though that *does* raise the question of how vampires have spread all over the world. If travel almost never happens, yet there's vampires all over the world... what the fuck?

Oh, and a note about your rpg.net gang of teenagers with golf clubs and deer rifles. Shotguns are your friend. Shotguns are the bane of vampire existence. Why? 9-again on your rolls. You tend to roll absurd amounts of successes (even a minor to moderate character can rack up 15+ successes with a shotgun blast if they aim for a couple turns and blow a point of willpower).

[Username17]

My problem with Promethians was the whole "eventually nobody is going to want to be around you, so you're a complete and utter loner".

Promethean is flat unplayable. The game straight up tells you that you're not allowed to run a chronicle with recurring NPCs and punishes you severely for interacting with the other PCs. Seriously: what the fuck?

I understand that the big three monsters are in fact Dracula, The Wolfman, and Frankenstein's Monster, not Hjalmar Poelzig. I understand how Rein*Hagen might have been confused, what with the fact that both are played by Boris Karloff. But that's not an acceptable excuse. The fact is that I want, and the American People want, to play as Frankenstein's Monster. That's not up for discussion.

So nWoD promising us playable Prometheans was good. But promising and delivering are not the same thing. That shit was written by Justin Achilli, and it's not playable.

The mandatory morality path for each beastie now includes a really strange and pointless morality path for the Forsaken

You talk like that's just for the Forsaken. The morality paths for all the factions are fucked up. We start with how Vampires are punished more for stealing the car of a rich man than the sandwich of a starving hobo. Then we go into the fact that changelings are punished for lying and stealing. I mean seriously guys: what the fuck? Everytime Justin Achilli takes a moral shit on us and asks us if we like it, I tell him no. But he keeps doing it. Stupid fucking nonsensical Christian morals. I'm surprised he doesn't cut the crap and just put 10 commandments, with number one being "Thou shalt have no gods before me."

The ONLY thing to do as Forsaken is run around, kill spirits to protect your turf, and occasionally fight the pure breeds.

Here I don't agree at all. Werewolves don't get anything for fighting spirits or the pure breeds. Seriously, there's really no reason to fight any of those people. The world is very big, and you have to move around a lot anyway because of the rage rampages if you don't. So if spirits and pure breeds wanna step in your turf... just let them. Get on a plane, and go to New Mexico. It's the land of enchantment. The whole thing where there isn't a tribe you care about or any important sacred duty to defend the last flames of pure Gaia energy in nWerewolf means that you don't care about any of the conflicts. The only thing you can gain is land you can't hold, and the only thing to lose is your life. The way to win is not to play.

Oh, and a note about your rpg.net gang of teenagers with golf clubs and deer rifles. Shotguns are your friend. Shotguns are the bane of vampire existence. Why? 9-again on your rolls. You tend to roll absurd amounts of successes (even a minor to moderate character can rack up 15+ successes with a shotgun blast if they aim for a couple turns and blow a point of willpower).

Or heck: explosives. Those things do automatic wound levels. That's like rolling three dice for every single one. A decent hand grenade is like a 19 die attack that targets the entire enemy group simultaneously. But seriously: I didn't want to blow those RPG.net mouthbreathers' minds. You saw how they wandered off jerking each other off for like 8 pages in self congratulation over their claim that the statement that Command wore off in one round during combat overrode the statement under Extraordinary success where it says it lasts 5 rounds or more? And how fucking none of that shit even mattered in the context of the fact that I was already positing that you could wax elders by just playing Freezetag while your mind raped teenage dropout squad finished them off with items from the sporting goods department?

Yeah. I figured actually bringing out the weapons that could actually kill in a few rounds would just waste more time. I don't know what half-assed plan they would have to lay claim to the idea that your teenage runaway pedestrian enforcers couldn't drop a concussion grenade or fire an anti-material rifle (eight again on a 5 dot weapon), and honestly? I don't want to know. Every time I read a post by Devil about how I am misrepresenting the rules with my ability to count past five reduces the intelligence not only of my self, but also of the very fabric of the universe.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

Promethean is flat unplayable. The game straight up tells you that you're not allowed to run a chronicle with recurring NPCs and punishes you severely for interacting with the other PCs. Seriously: what the fuck?

Yup. Total agreement here. Someone tried playing a Promethean. Once. And they had to ditch all the thematics of the game as written in order to play as part of the party.

I understand that the big three monsters are in fact Dracula, The Wolfman, and Frankenstein's Monster, not Hjalmar Poelzig. I understand how Rein*Hagen might have been confused, what with the fact that both are played by Boris Karloff. But that's not an acceptable excuse. The fact is that I want, and the American People want, to play as Frankenstein's Monster. That's not up for discussion.

So nWoD promising us playable Prometheans was good. But promising and delivering are not the same thing. That shit was written by Justin Achilli, and it's not playable.

Yeah. The Mage thing doesn't make sense when you're listing monster archetypes, but it *does* make sense when you're looking for a 3rd game line and realize a substantially large portion of your customer base digs New Age mysticism. Then it makes perfect sense.

I was actually very intrigued by Promethean, but then I started reading the teasers and quickly lost interest. Even through the teasers, cherry-picked to entice customers, it felt like the game was at worst unplayable, and at best pointless.

You talk like that's just for the Forsaken. The morality paths for all the factions are fucked up. We start with how Vampires are punished more for stealing the car of a rich man than the sandwich of a starving hobo. Then we go into the fact that changelings are punished for lying and stealing. I mean seriously guys: what the fuck? Everytime Justin Achilli takes a moral shit on us and asks us if we like it, I tell him no. But he keeps doing it. Stupid fucking nonsensical Christian morals. I'm surprised he doesn't cut the crap and just put 10 commandments, with number one being "Thou shalt have no gods before me."

Crap I forgot about Humanity being that effed up. Changeling I borrowed and started to read, and then got into the "why are we bothering?" trap that nWOD inflicts on me over and over and over again and stopped reading right around where they started introducing character generation. If the core book doesn't immediately make it clear *why* I'm playing changeling, what the themes and goals for an "average" changeling is, then the core book is a failure. I don't care if expansions address this, that makes it an even larger failure.

Here I don't agree at all. Werewolves don't get anything for fighting spirits or the pure breeds. Seriously, there's really no reason to fight any of those people. The world is very big, and you have to move around a lot anyway because of the rage rampages if you don't. So if spirits and pure breeds wanna step in your turf... just let them. Get on a plane, and go to New Mexico. It's the land of enchantment. The whole thing where there isn't a tribe you care about or any important sacred duty to defend the last flames of pure Gaia energy in nWerewolf means that you don't care about any of the conflicts. The only thing you can gain is land you can't hold, and the only thing to lose is your life. The way to win is not to play.

Good point. It sounded boring when you accepted designer fiat, when you apply that logic, it sounds even more pointless. I forgot about the rage rampages that make it difficult to stick around.

And don't forget you don't get a breath about the pure breeds unless you spend 27 dollars on the pure breeds hardcover book. So half your antagonists are being held ransom.

Or heck: explosives. Those things do automatic wound levels. That's like rolling three dice for every single one. A decent hand grenade is like a 19 die attack that targets the entire enemy group simultaneously. But seriously: I didn't want to blow those RPG.net mouthbreathers' minds. You saw how they wandered off jerking each other off for like 8 pages in self congratulation over their claim that the statement that Command wore off in one round during combat overrode the statement under Extraordinary success where it says it lasts 5 rounds or more? And how fucking none of that shit even mattered in the context of the fact that I was already positing that you could wax elders by just playing Freezetag while your mind raped teenage dropout squad finished them off with items from the sporting goods department?

In theory explosives should represent a challenge to get. A shotgun costs 400 bucks, or you steal one out of a cop car. I won't get arrested or harassed if I have one in the trunk of my car (or in the South, up on a gun rack in the back window of my pickup cab). And they do stupid amounts of damage.

Every time I read a post by Devil about how I am misrepresenting the rules with my ability to count past five reduces the intelligence not only of my self, but also of the very fabric of the universe.

You mean Mr "I never even read oWOD but I'm in a position to speak authoritatively about it"? When I read that my eyes nearly did a backflip in my skull.

Oh, and to the above poster asking what happened to this thread, we have threads on how f*cked up just about every system 'cept xWOD is, so I guess this is a bitchfest/advice thread now.

[virgil]

How does Disquiet discourage interacting with other PCs? I thought it only affected humans.

[Prak]

Promethean is flat unplayable. The game straight up tells you that you're not allowed to run a chronicle with recurring NPCs and punishes you severely for interacting with the other PCs. Seriously: what the fuck?

Yup. Total agreement here. Someone tried playing a Promethean. Once. And they had to ditch all the thematics of the game as written in order to play as part of the party.

That's nothing new. Even in OWoD you'd regularly have to ditch the thematics of a game line to make it playable or rewarding at all.

I understand that the big three monsters are in fact Dracula, The Wolfman, and Frankenstein's Monster, not Hjalmar Poelzig. I understand how Rein*Hagen might have been confused, what with the fact that both are played by Boris Karloff. But that's not an acceptable excuse. The fact is that I want, and the American People want, to play as Frankenstein's Monster. That's not up for discussion.

So nWoD promising us playable Prometheans was good. But promising and delivering are not the same thing. That shit was written by Justin Achilli, and it's not playable.

Yeah. The Mage thing doesn't make sense when you're listing monster archetypes, but it *does* make sense when you're looking for a 3rd game line and realize a substantially large portion of your customer base digs New Age mysticism. Then it makes perfect sense.

Well that, and, after one looks at the concept, it can be an incredibly attractive one, even if the traditions are all boring as shit. The idea of the mage game is awesome, the execution is fucking horrible.

I was actually very intrigued by Promethean, but then I started reading the teasers and quickly lost interest. Even through the teasers, cherry-picked to entice customers, it felt like the game was at worst unplayable, and at best pointless.

yeah. I wasn't talking about liking the actual line, I like the idea of playing frankenstein's monster. I may have been unclear.

[Cynic]

I meant that the old Werewolf mostly ran on the idea of Cuchulainn, King Arthur, Siegfried, Ilya Muromets and Enkidu (who all just so happen to be werecreatures) teaming up to win Ragnarok, while having Bleach-like gonzo adventures in the magic realms and beating shit out of Global Evil Inc. on the way.

Seriously? This makes me wish that I hadn't avoided the Owod as much as i did back in the day.

Granted apocalypse and changeling were my two favorite books but I wish I had realized the arthur, siegfried stuff.

[Username17]

How does Disquiet discourage interacting with other PCs? I thought it only affected humans.

Every time you talk to a supernatural creature, your wasteland explodes, you get threated with torment, and your personal mission takes a hit. I'm not even kidding. You are specifically and seriously penalized for having social interactions with other supernatural creatures. Totally unplayable mess. They seriously went out of their fucking way to hose people actually trying to put Frankenstein's Monster into a game.

Seriously? This makes me wish that I hadn't avoided the Owod as much as i did back in the day.

FatR is selling it as way more mythically based than it was. As a Werewolf, you had incredibly weird powers and you were fighting the villains from Captain Planet. You were essentially the heroes from Captain Planet, but you spun the wheel of random X-Men powers rather than getting elemental rings. Also, you turned into a Werewolf and could phase into the Umbral Realm where shit was cheap to animate because the backgrounds were all swirly in order to have boss fights with giant monsters without having to draw property damage. The vibe in short, was very much "Saturday Morning Cartoon." Heck, the giant monsters were generally the spirits of random man-made objects that had been juiced up and corrupted by tainted magic power from toxic waste or bad thoughts. In short: the monster of the week was literally a Sailor Moon monster of the week.

In order to sell this as a "dark" game, they crammed a bunch of "dark" elements in sideways. And by that I mean that they stressed that in their downtime, when not fighting monsters of the week created by the villains from Captain Planet in order to lead up to the final showdown with Queen Beryl Doctor Blight General Krang The Wyrm Avatar, the players were being ordered to do horrible things by the rest of the Planeteers. These things involved gang raping humans and dogs, cannibalism, and torture. You had a mystic imperative to not have sex with any of your peers, but your species was dying out, and that was bad. So if you didn't rape a significant number of dogs, the other planeteers would be very mad at you.

In short: it was basically like a Sailor Moon / Captain Planet crossover What If... where all the heroes are werewolves and it was all written by Garth Ennis.

-Username17

[FatR]

, the players were being ordered to do horrible things by the rest of the Planeteers. These things involved gang raping humans and dogs, cannibalism, and torture.

This part of your post is just outright false. The rest consist of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
I.e. "In WtA characters fight monsters powered by negative emotions. In Sailormoon characters fight monsters powered by negative emotions*. Therefore WtA is Sailormoon with werewolves." ("Crossovered with Captain Planet", but the Captain Planet association is dragged here the same way.)

As about making WtA more mythical than it is, PCs literally are reincarnated heroes of old (they are not strictly required to be, but Past Lives background is really useful, so they probably are), whose goal is literally to win Ragnarok, and whose enemies and allies include at least half of the things you can encounter in popular mythologies, from Ares to Koschey the Deathless. Signature characters (despite being a bunch of Mary Sues/dumbasses) deal with plotlines like the return of the True King (tm). Sort of hard to get more mythical than that.


*As a side note, this is also not true - Sailormoon's monsters of the week are demons/magical killbots made by the baddies/humans who were possessed or had their souls torn out.

[Username17]

This part of your post is just outright false.

Uh... no. No it's not.

Raping dogs was a huge part of Werewolf the Apocalypse. Huge. You literally and specifically get more status when your tribe spends more time raping dogs. There are long and stomach churning essays abut how raping dogs is good for th dogs and good for the world. There are bizarrely moralistic tirades about how many bad things come from not spending enough time raping dogs.

The high status tribes, such as the Red Talons and the Silver Fangs rape dogs frequently. While the low status tribes like the bone gnawers have betrayed their history by hardly ever raping dogs. The Glasswalker tribe essentially never raped dogs, prefering to have sex with human beings, and they were portrayed as being likely traitors to the Planeteer cause because of it.

Let's be real here, you can look this shit up on goddamn wikipedia:

Red Talon beliefs hold that man, including all human kinfolk, is a "cancer" upon the earth completely corrupted by the Wyrm, For that reason along with the belief that humans have no instincts, the tribe typically only allows lupus members, products of Garou/wolf breeding

The tribe is composed entirely of the offspring resulting from dog rape! Entirely! Every single member has a parent who has raped a dog at least once, and they are expect, nay demanded to carry on this proud tradition.

Because Mark Rein*Hagen doesn't see anything wrong with raping dogs. Or maybe he thought that having players all sticking their cocks into literal bitches was a good way to live up to the "Savage Horror" genre label he put on the book. I don't fucking know. I just want to never ever be asked to play a game in a world where raping dogs is considered socially acceptable under any circumstances.

-Username17

[Korwin]

So breeding dogs is now raping them?

If you rape the dog and the female dog isnt in heat you wont get offspring...

If the bitch (female dog, definitly not talking human female here*) is in heat and you are the only "dog" around. Are you raping it?

*feel the need for the disclaimer there. Even here in the Den...

[Koumei]

In short: it was basically like a Sailor Moon / Captain Planet crossover What If... where all the heroes are werewolves and it was all written by Garth Ennis.

No way. There is not a single good thing I can say about Werewolf, and just about nothing bad I can say about Sailor Moon.

[Username17]

So breeding dogs is now raping them?

It is when you get a grown man to do the breeding with his own penis, yes.

Bestiality is rape. For the same reason that fucking children is rape, fucking the unconscious is rape, and fucking those who don't consent is rape.

What the fucking hell is wrong with you?

-Username17

[Username17]

In short: it was basically like a Sailor Moon / Captain Planet crossover What If... where all the heroes are werewolves and it was all written by Garth Ennis.

No way. There is not a single good thing I can say about Werewolf, and just about nothing bad I can say about Sailor Moon.

Yes way.

Remember Sailor Moon SuperS, where the Dark Carnival would show up each episode to try to find the chick who had the unicorn spirit in her dreams? And every episode they would grab some random object and fill it with black magic so that it grew into a carnival themed lady demon who went on a rampage (like Puko the Balloon Girl)? And then they would do some kung fu fighting and use some magic powers, and then Chibi Usa would reach into the mirror to call upon her Unicorn Pegasus Totem Spirit who would save the day?

Yeah. It's basically just like that. Only instead of the Dark Carnival, your villainous dudes are from the Pentex Corporation who are bad guys who want to pollute the Earth by puting a bunch of refrigerators in the antarctic to destroy the Ozone Layer or something. Then they use the dark power that they gain from gratuitous villainy (either by harvesting energy from people by encouraging them to engage in cheap materialism, or by Poisoning the Water Supply with toxic mind control chemicals) to grab the spirit of some random object, like a slot machine or a balloon. And then everyone pulls out Spirit Mirrors, and calls upon their Totem Animal, in order to use their Super Attacks.

But on top of that, everyone is a werewolf and is supposed to be raping dogs. Because otherwise it wouldn't be "dark" enough. After all, if they were just turning into werewolves and having romances, it would merely be Captain Planet / Sailor Moon Furry Slash. Which is weird, and not really what I want to do - but not specifically objectionable. But they had to kick up the crazy to 11 by having actual dog raping be an incredibly important part of the game.

This is one thing that Werewolf the Forsaken did basically right: no more "incest baby" chargen option and no more "dog rape imperative." Indeed, it's pretty simple and clear:

No werewolves can be born of mating with wolves, and one werewolf breeding with another begets a true monster

Thank you. Werewolf the Forsaken is a fucking pointless game that sucks. But at least they took all the dog rape out.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

Of the big three, the only one that survived basically intact was Mage. And yeah, they took away villains you gave a fuck about - but since Mage was all about solipsism anyway, it hardly matters.

Hardly. Mage got fucked up too.

The biggest problem with Mage is that I can't imagine why you'd even really care about the plotline. I mean it's supposedly some fight for some weird ass tower of Atlantis or some bullshit, but who gives a shit?

At least in old Mage, the technocracy was all up in your shit and you had goals of trying to control reality and stuff. What you were fighting was actually here in the real world.

New Mage doesn't have any of that. You're fighting some war with people on another dimension that you probably can't even visit yet. The war itself seems pointless, and is just like some weird crusade to Jerusalem... because it doesn't seem like controlling that tower or whatever the fuck it is even matters.

Really I just can't imagine any PC characters actually being interested in that.

[endersdouble]

This is one thing that Werewolf the Forsaken did basically right: no more "incest baby" chargen option and no more "dog rape imperative." Indeed, it's pretty simple and clear:

What the fuck? Dude, it's not "rape" when YOU'RE A FUCKING WOLF TOO. Is a human who nails a werewolf committing bestiality? Seriously, you're grasping at straws to condemn werewolf society like fucking whoa. Did your girlfriend try to leave you for Taylor Lautner or something?

More to the point, unlike Looten Plunder, Pentex typically had plausible reasons besides a pollution fetish [1] for their actions. Seriously, if they gain serious magical power from fucking up the environment for funsies, it makes total sense that they do it happily and repeatedly. You're the one constantly clamoring for reasonable motives among game characters...

Then again, W:tA is quasiresponsible for Samuel Haight, so fuck it. What's up with that dude anyway? Who thought that NPC was a good idea? Really?

[1] In the sexual sense. Pentex probably has fucking tons of pollution magical fetishes.

[Mask_De_H]

I have to say, the Den is the only place I can see a conversation on the merits of animal diddling in the context of oWoD. I don't even know whether it counts as rape or not because this isn't like a dude in a fursuit boning a dog, it's a dude who is actually a furry (or a wolf) boning a dog, which is quasi-in species.

Rape or not, dog fucking is still weird and pretty typical 90's WW GRIMDARK silliness.

[Prak]

In short: it was basically like a Sailor Moon / Captain Planet crossover What If... where all the heroes are werewolves and it was all written by Garth Ennis.

No way. There is not a single good thing I can say about Werewolf, and just about nothing bad I can say about Sailor Moon.

Yes way.

Remember Sailor Moon SuperS, where the Dark Carnival would show up each episode to try to find the chick who had the unicorn spirit in her dreams? And every episode they would grab some random object and fill it with black magic so that it grew into a carnival themed lady demon who went on a rampage (like Puko the Balloon Girl)? And then they would do some kung fu fighting and use some magic powers, and then Chibi Usa would reach into the mirror to call upon her Unicorn Pegasus Totem Spirit who would save the day?

Yeah. It's basically just like that. Only instead of the Dark Carnival, your villainous dudes are from the Pentex Corporation who are bad guys who want to pollute the Earth by puting a bunch of refrigerators in the antarctic to destroy the Ozone Layer or something. Then they use the dark power that they gain from gratuitous villainy (either by harvesting energy from people by encouraging them to engage in cheap materialism, or by Poisoning the Water Supply with toxic mind control chemicals) to grab the spirit of some random object, like a slot machine or a balloon. And then everyone pulls out Spirit Mirrors, and calls upon their Totem Animal, in order to use their Super Attacks.

But on top of that, everyone is a werewolf and is supposed to be raping dogs. Because otherwise it wouldn't be "dark" enough. After all, if they were just turning into werewolves and having romances, it would merely be Captain Planet / Sailor Moon Furry Slash. Which is weird, and not really what I want to do - but not specifically objectionable. But they had to kick up the crazy to 11 by having actual dog raping be an incredibly important part of the game.

This is one thing that Werewolf the Forsaken did basically right: no more "incest baby" chargen option and no more "dog rape imperative." Indeed, it's pretty simple and clear:

No werewolves can be born of mating with wolves, and one werewolf breeding with another begets a true monster

Thank you. Werewolf the Forsaken is a fucking pointless game that sucks. But at least they took all the dog rape out.

-Username17

Frank, did you ever actually play Werewolf? Because that shit must have been fucking epic from the way you describe the game...

[Username17]

What the fuck? Dude, it's not "rape" when YOU'RE A FUCKING WOLF TOO

Yes it is. It's not rape if it's a talking dog, then it's just gross. You are free to fuck the talking super wolves from Princess Mononoke all you want. Or write stories about it. Or whatever. But whatever shape you or the creature happened to be, if it's not a consenting sapient adult, that's rape. And if you say otherwise, it's because you are an immoral sick fuck. Who should probably be investigated and possibly jailed.

You can play Vatican Excuse Bingo all you want, but the fact is that having sex with creatures that are not intellectually and morally competent as people is rape. And it is inexcusable.

Remember: Werewolves in W:tA did not have sex with a species of super secret talking super wolves, they had sex with actual dogs. It was, and is, totally fucked up. There is no silver lining. There is no secret out. It would be like raping monkeys because you are after all, a kind of monkey.

Frank, did you ever actually play Werewolf? Because that shit must have been fucking epic from the way you describe the game...

Yes. Yes I did.

-Username17

[Prak]

I'm going to try and do the board a service... Endersdouble, Korwin, anyone else compelled to question whether a werewolf fucking a dog is rape... just... don't. This isn't the first time it's come up, just fucking drop the subject, ok? If you want a debate, try an actual W:tA board.

Frank, I'd fucking pay to see some of those games. though they're probably not as entertaining as I imagine.

[Mask_De_H]

I would bankroll Prak on that game motion, because that sounds like a fanfic sporker's wet dream.

W:tA: The Power (to fuck dogs) Is Yours!

[Lago PARANOIA]

Thank you. Werewolf the Forsaken is a fucking pointless game that sucks. But at least they took all the dog rape out.

Hey, Frank, what's your opinion on Lunar Exalted?

[RandomCasualty2]

You can play Vatican Excuse Bingo all you want, but the fact is that having sex with creatures that are not intellectually and morally competent as people is rape. And it is inexcusable.

Not exactly no... animals can want to have sex too. Now, they're actually incapable of saying "yes" or "no", because they're incapable of speech, but they have those basic desires.

You can't apply a human definition of rape to animals. A werewolf fucking a wolf is pretty much the same as any wolf fucking a wolf. It may be disgusting and something we don't want to think about because we're not furries, but it's not rape.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Anyone remember the episode of South Park where Cartman accidentally joined NAMBLA and at the end the pedophiles are trying to defend their actions to touching music and the kids are telling them to just shut the hell up?

Yeah.