Right, so I know O/NWod is bad but...

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Anyhow, if you subtract the dog rape, I wouldn't mind playing a planeteer-themed werewolf game.

[Korwin]

So breeding dogs is now raping them?

It is when you get a grown man to do the breeding with his own penis, yes.

Bestiality is rape. For the same reason that fucking children is rape, fucking the unconscious is rape, and fucking those who don't consent is rape.

What the fucking hell is wrong with you?

-Username17

Lets just say I dont fuck animals (or breed them for that matter), I eat them. And I stand by this choice...

[Psychic Robot]

Not exactly no... animals can want to have sex too. Now, they're actually incapable of saying "yes" or "no", because they're incapable of speech, but they have those basic desires.

You can't apply a human definition of rape to animals. A werewolf fucking a wolf is pretty much the same as any wolf fucking a wolf. It may be disgusting and something we don't want to think about because we're not furries, but it's not rape.

Not this shit again.

You're technically right, but this is going to rapidly devolve into a huge fuckfest regarding sexual morality and how some sex is badwrong because our cultural norms have decided that it's wrong whereas some sex is acceptable because it would be illogical and irrational to claim that it is wrong, and in the end we just have a giant circlejerking flamewar that completely derails the thread and any intelligent discussion in favor of dogfucking.

[Prak]

nice choice of words PR.

Hey Frank, what's your opinion on the psuedo-necrophilia of VtM?

[Calibron]

Whether you think necrophilia is morally wrong, as opposed to illegal or just disgusting and unhealthy, depends on your stance concerning respect for the dead, corpses as property, and some other crap; and those issues aren't existent in a vampire fucking scenario. So I don't see how someone could have a real moral issue with vampire sex specifically rather than a blanket moral problem with vampires themselves.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Prak, just give it up. When a dog humps your leg, you're raping it. You are a bad person and you should feel bad. End of discussion.


Generally speaking, however, it's fine to fuck your dog so long as you kill it first.
[Edit] Note, however, the importance of it being your own dog. Somebody else's dog is not your property, so killing and raping it would be wrong. [/Edit]

[Username17]

Hey Frank, what's your opinion on the psuedo-necrophilia of VtM?

Are we talking the pseudo necrophilia of all vampire sex, or the actual blatant necrophilia and incest of the Giovanni clan book? The fact is, either one of them is just different cultural norms.

Sure, the Govanni clan book is gross. It goes out of its way to be such. It involves sister fucking, corpse fucking, skull fucking, corpse eating, and so on and so forth. For really no purpose whatever save to offend and titillate the reader. The Giovanni clan book is in bad taste.

But you know what? None of those things are rape. They actually aren't violating the rule of not having sex with a being that does not or cannot consent. Your grown sister could consent to fuck you, and a genuine corpse isn't even alive - it's just an object. The first is objectionable on cultural and genetic grounds, neither of which even apply to tiny societies of sterile vampires. The second is objectionable again on cultural grounds, but mechanically it's really no different from fucking a real doll.

For all its deliberate attempts to push the boundaries of good taste, very little in the Giovanni clan book is actually over the line. However, Werewolf, despite all its feeble apologetics, seriously is.

-Username17

[Calibron]

Prak, just give it up. When a dog humps your leg, you're raping it. You are a bad person and you should feel bad. End of discussion.


Generally speaking, however, it's fine to fuck your dog so long as you kill it first.
[Edit] Note, however, the importance of it being your own dog. Somebody else's dog is not your property, so killing and raping it would be wrong. [/Edit]

I burst out laughing. Thank you.

[mean_liar]

Prak, just give it up. When a dog humps your leg, you're raping it. You are a bad person and you should feel bad. End of discussion.


Generally speaking, however, it's fine to fuck your dog so long as you kill it first.
[Edit] Note, however, the importance of it being your own dog. Somebody else's dog is not your property, so killing and raping it would be wrong. [/Edit]

[Prak]

bit of a tangent, but this question's actually serious.

Frank, changing systems to D&D now, what about a druid that fucks her animal companion? rape?

[Username17]

bit of a tangent, but this question's actually serious.

Frank, changing systems to D&D now, what about a druid that fucks her animal companion? rape?

Which version of animal companion? The one where it's a magical beast with human intelligence or the one where it's just a really bright dog? If it's the first, then sure, go for it. You can have all the sexy with human intelligence badgers that you want. If it's the latter, then it's no different than molesting children.

-Username17

[souran]

As an attempt to push back on topic.

OWOD was a terrible shitfest of games that where only playable as magic tea party games with game masters who were half drugged.

The mechanics had so many abusable interactions, terribly tiered powers, and other mechanics that just don't work.

Even in a game of vampire creating a character type whose disadvantage is "you are a crazy person" is pissing all over everything that actually makes human social interaction possible and hence the ability to PLAY THE FUCKING GAME.

The basic play of OWAD is have your character sheet which might as well be fake. You roll a bunch of dice for something you think you are good at. The story teller pulls a combination of target number modifiers and dice penalty modifers out of his ass and then tells if you succeeded or failed based on how much you have been sucking his cock.

I never once in OWOD made a roll that I couldn't tell you exactly how the result was going to play out before I made the roll.

The rules to OWOD were broken to the point that calling them a system was fucking laughable in the first place.

I new people who had played vampire for littleraly a decade and they had never actually played with anything like the rules.

Thats was ok though, because doing something in OWOD basically amounted to following around "storyline NPCs" and being a fucking bystander to anything cool that might happen.

So, I was really excited to hear about NWOD. It was a chance to turn a good concept and a steaming shitpile of rules into an actual game.

Unfortuantly, white-wolfs first attempt at making an actual game system is boring. Its not exactly bad. You can actually play this game by the rules and things happen. The problem is that what happens is stupid.

Basic blue book WOD teaches us that the POLICE are fucking superhuman genetic engineered monstrosties or they are the Agents from the Matrix either way the idea that a player might ever want to be as good as one is munchkin powergaming of the worst sort. A starting human character should expect to be killed by an attack poodle and should only stand and fight against guard dogs once they have played ten or twenty sessions of the game.

I could go on and on but at this point I think it would just be a bitch-fest and some of the compliants have probably already been covered.

However, I think that Frank and others give way to MUCH credit to OWOD. New WOD was really really needed. The old games were little more than group masterbation. Sadly, Frank's point about not caring about anything in NWOD is correct, even if I don't agree with Franks reasoning. Its not the background of the setting thats boring, its the fact that the rules are so boring to play that makes you just go "fuck it, lets go postal because then at least something will happen"

[Prak]

bit of a tangent, but this question's actually serious.

Frank, changing systems to D&D now, what about a druid that fucks her animal companion? rape?

Which version of animal companion? The one where it's a magical beast with human intelligence or the one where it's just a really bright dog? If it's the first, then sure, go for it. You can have all the sexy with human intelligence badgers that you want. If it's the latter, then it's no different than molesting children.

-Username17

Well, at least you're consistent. So I guess Beastspeech doesn't help the original issue (werewolves fucking wolves) in your mind.

[violence in the media]

bit of a tangent, but this question's actually serious.

Frank, changing systems to D&D now, what about a druid that fucks her animal companion? rape?

Which version of animal companion? The one where it's a magical beast with human intelligence or the one where it's just a really bright dog? If it's the first, then sure, go for it. You can have all the sexy with human intelligence badgers that you want. If it's the latter, then it's no different than molesting children.

-Username17

Quoting you Frank, but this is a general line of questioning. How much human intelligence is necessary? Will a 3 do it? Do you need at least a 7 or 8? Is it more or less moral to have sexy time with your INT 6 awakened pony versus the perfectly mundane INT 6 barmaid? Where do you draw the juvenile/adult line? The wiki claims elves physically mature by 25 and emotionally mature by 125. WTF? So is an elven pedophile one that preys on 20 year old elves, or 50 year old ones?

[schpeelah]

The minimum intelligence is "above what you would rate a person with a moderate mental handicap at".
And the wrongness of pedophilia is about the intellectual and emotional immaturity of the partner. Physical maturity isn't in the equation here.
Awakened pony is OK though gross, barmaid is OK, elves below 125 NOT OK.

[Calibron]

This has become ridiculous, there's no hard line in this scenario because it's not a line you skirt; it's a line you run away from as fast as you can. If you use your moral code to see how close you can get to being horrible without technically getting there then you are missing the point of having morals.

[Sir Neil]

...what's your opinion on the psuedo-necrophilia of VtM?

I think it misses the point, just like the BoVD did. The necrophiliacs I know about were after control, not death. Their ideal partner is a living mindslave.

On a personal note: ick. Even sexy lady vampires are room temperature. Do not want.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

This has become ridiculous, there's no hard line in this scenario because it's not a line you skirt; it's a line you run away from as fast as you can. If you use your moral code to see how close you can get to being horrible without technically getting there then you are missing the point of having morals.

Actually I have to disagree with this. There's nothing wrong with asking 'is this action moral?', no matter how immediately objectionable it may seem. Often, questions of morality do hinge on supposedly minor details, or on extremely fine distinctions.

'Is dograping ok?' isn't one of those questions, of course. 'Is this person capable of consenting to sex' can be a really complicated question in humans, though the law naturally imposes a strict dividing line. The idea that a person's cognitive responsibility switches on at 18 is a necessary legal fiction.

Conversely, no dog exists or has ever existed that could possibly give informed consent to sex with a human. No dog exists or has ever existed in possession of human-level sapience.

[Lokathor]

The minimum intelligence is "above what you would rate a person with a moderate mental handicap at".
And the wrongness of pedophilia is about the intellectual and emotional immaturity of the partner. Physical maturity isn't in the equation here.
Awakened pony is OK though gross, barmaid is OK, elves below 125 NOT OK.

Human: "Oh, that one's pretty hot."
Elf: "What? Gross, Man! She's barely 70!"
Human: "lol, wut!?"

[Red_Rob]

no dog exists or has ever existed that could possibly give informed consent to sex with a human.

A thought experiment: A female werewolf is in Lupus form. Along comes a big old horny wolf. He sees the female and thinks "Party time". The werewolf is fighting against it, but the wolf won't take no for an answer.

Are they both raping each other???

But wait! Does that wrap around to it being consensual? In which case the only options for the Red Talon clan are to either be morally repugnant dograpists or to spend their time getting raped by dogs.

Fuck. Thats some dark shit right there. Forget the Gaia hippy "the world is doomed because of pollution" schtick, this must be why they call this a game of Personal Horror.

[Username17]

Quoting you Frank, but this is a general line of questioning. How much human intelligence is necessary? Will a 3 do it? Do you need at least a 7 or 8? Is it more or less moral to have sexy time with your INT 6 awakened pony versus the perfectly mundane INT 6 barmaid? Where do you draw the juvenile/adult line? The wiki claims elves physically mature by 25 and emotionally mature by 125. WTF? So is an elven pedophile one that preys on 20 year old elves, or 50 year old ones?

D&D does not do a good job of explaining the difference between an Int of 4 and an Int of 8. I really can't answer that. Int 6 definitely seems to include people who function at an adult level, and Int 2 is reserved for sub humans and babies. But whether the line is at 3 or 5 or 6 or whatever is one that will actually vary from campaign to campaign, because those low in-between values have inconsistent meaning between DMs. There may, or may not, be a point in there where you are essentially raping retarded people. And Elven physiology... let's just say that no two DMs agree about what what Elven children are like and leave it at that. Similarly, no one can say definitively if it's "OK" to hit on 12 year old Orcs or not. Because in some campaigns it is, and in some campaigns it is not.

Things can get pretty complicated when you're talking about sapient races that don't exist. Talking about actual animals that actually exist is not complicated at all though.

However, I think that Frank and others give way to MUCH credit to OWOD. New WOD was really really needed. The old games were little more than group masterbation. Sadly, Frank's point about not caring about anything in NWOD is correct, even if I don't agree with Franks reasoning. Its not the background of the setting thats boring, its the fact that the rules are so boring to play that makes you just go "fuck it, lets go postal because then at least something will happen"

First of all, the only OWOD rules that count are Minds Eye Theater, because those were the only ones that even kind of worked.

-Username17

[Prak]

This has become ridiculous, there's no hard line in this scenario because it's not a line you skirt; it's a line you run away from as fast as you can. If you use your moral code to see how close you can get to being horrible without technically getting there then you are missing the point of having morals.

Calibron, that's the point, at least for some of us. Frank has already made this ridiculous by making the textual version of standing on a street corner and yelling about dograping. The point may be good, but the way he's ranting, it immediately makes it ridiculous. Hence why more and more ridiculous questions get asked, and why I'm tempted to try and make "needs more dogrape" a meme. When this first came up, in the old Awod thread that disappeared, I found it stupid and tiresome. This time it's seemed to have crossed the line again, to become funny.

D&D does not do a good job of explaining the difference between an Int of 4 and an Int of 8. I really can't answer that. Int 6 definitely seems to include people who function at an adult level, and Int 2 is reserved for sub humans and babies. But whether the line is at 3 or 5 or 6 or whatever is one that will actually vary from campaign to campaign, because those low in-between values have inconsistent meaning between DMs. There may, or may not, be a point in there where you are essentially raping retarded people. And Elven physiology... let's just say that no two DMs agree about what what Elven children are like and leave it at that. Similarly, no one can say definitively if it's "OK" to hit on 12 year old Orcs or not. Because in some campaigns it is, and in some campaigns it is not.

Thanks for saying that yourself, Frank. Because as I brought up the last time this rant occurred, OWoD wolves aren't quite like real wolves. While they may not be quite human-level in their sentience, it has been repeatedly implied in OWoD that most of the animals that changing breeds mate with (wolves, big cats, etc.) are at least quasi-sentient, and more than that, fairly spiritually attuned, which in the setting, almost seems more important. More over, any animal a changing breed needs to mate with could, conceivably, be awakened first, uniting with an actually sentient spirit. Would this make it "ok"?

And finally, there are plenty of animals that will make sexual advances on humans, so as Catharz said, any time a dog humps your leg, or mounts someone who's bent over to pick something up, by your logic, the person is a horrible animal rapist, despite the animal initiating.

Hell, by your logic, you should hate D&D 3.0, because the Druid, Rangers and Barbarians book had a flavour quote that implied the Iconic druid got sexed up by a bird while in bird form. So 3e encouraged bird rape!

[Count Arioch the 28th]

[Lokathor]

First of all, the only OWOD rules that count are Minds Eye Theater, because those were the only ones that even kind of worked.

-Username17

My favorite part of this post is that there wasn't even a second of all.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

And finally, there are plenty of animals that will make sexual advances on humans, so as Catharz said, any time a dog humps your leg, or mounts someone who's bent over to pick something up, by your logic, the person is a horrible animal rapist, despite the animal initiating.

Those aren't sexual advances, those are dominance displays. If a dog does that to a human, you need to immediately administer the most extreme negative enforcement you are comfortable with and within the limits of not being considered animal cruelty. If a dog thinks it can treat a human like an omega, then you will have issues.