The Shadowrun Situation

Taharqa · Post by **Taharqa** » Sat May 22, 2010 8:24 pm

Kaelik wrote: Actually, it would take more legwork than I possess to determine that the quote was not from Randall Bills, since it's a goddam forum post, and he runs the forum. He could post whatever he wanted under the name "Frank Trollman" if he wanted.

Typing "Kid Chameleon catalyst" into google returned me the information (on the first page) that Kid Chameleon is Ken Horner, with a picture no less. Typing "ken horner catalyst" into google returned me the information that Ken Horner is also a quality control manager at IBA Molecular and was educated at DePaul Univbersity, in addition to being a freelance writer for CGL.

Is it really that hard? But then this is precisely the lack of due diligence that I have been "whining" about on this forum.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat May 22, 2010 8:28 pm

Honestly dude, there are 16 or 17 owners of Catalyst, and only a couple of them get named on any kind of regular basis. Asking anyone in particular to even remember who the minor players are is absurd.

-Username17

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sat May 22, 2010 8:31 pm

Taharqa wrote:The evidence (I don't require 100%, btw, but 1% would be a good start) I am asking for is about the claim that Coleman fraudulently sold stock.

Taharqa wrote:No, IMR is actually owned by several people,

FrankTrollman wrote:IMR Responds
And Responds Some More.

The important thing here is that Loren Coleman is claiming in legal writing that he is the only owner of IMR, and that by extension all the stock he claimed to have sold to the other owners was fraudulent.

Answered your own question, Taharqa? A) Coleman represents IMR as being owned by more than him and his wife (your statement) B) His legal documents state that only he and his wife are owners.

If A + B, then C = other owner's ownership (aka 'stock') is fraudulent.

-Crissa

PS - identifying a quote includes not just 'remembering' who said it, but where, and then doing the google search. As it was, it was irrelevant to the conversation. I don't know who Kid Chameleon is, nor is he mentioned in any legal documents.

Taharqa · Post by **Taharqa** » Sat May 22, 2010 8:49 pm

Crissa wrote:
Taharqa wrote:The evidence (I don't require 100%, btw, but 1% would be a good start) I am asking for is about the claim that Coleman fraudulently sold stock.

Taharqa wrote:No, IMR is actually owned by several people,

FrankTrollman wrote:IMR Responds
And Responds Some More.

The important thing here is that Loren Coleman is claiming in legal writing that he is the only owner of IMR, and that by extension all the stock he claimed to have sold to the other owners was fraudulent.
Answered your own question, Taharqa? A) Coleman represents IMR as being owned by more than him and his wife (your statement) B) His legal documents state that only he and his wife are owners.

If A + B, then C = other owner's ownership (aka 'stock') is fraudulent.

Well technically there wasn't a question in any of my quotes, but what the heck.

Instead of taking Frank's liberal interpretation of the documents why don't we actually cite the entire clause under dispute here:

2. Loren Coleman and Heather Coleman are the members of IMR. Mr. Coleman and I initially spoke on the telephone May 6, 2010 concerning this bankruptcy matter. I wasn’t able to meet with Mr. Coleman until May 11, 2010.

The point of this quote is just to demonstrate the timeline on which the lawyer was able to establish contact with his clients. The first sentence is clearly there simply to establish that these are the relevant clients with whom he was trying to make contact. Is the sentence sloppy? yes. Are people making mountains out of molehills? hell, yes. Essentially, Coleman is being accused of fraudulent stock swindling on account of a "the." Kind of seems like a lot of weight to put an article to me.

Frank's notion that the purpose of this statement was as a defense of Coleman's action (by claiming he is sole owner and thus entitled to as much money as he wants) is ridiculous, because the bankruptcy court could give a shit about Coleman's actions. All they care about is whether the creditor's claims are legitimate and whether CGL is able to pay them. The moral basis of CGL's solvency/insolvency is not relevant.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat May 22, 2010 11:04 pm

Kithkanan wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Actually, it would take more legwork than I possess to determine that the quote was not from Randall Bills, since it's a goddam forum post, and he runs the forum. He could post whatever he wanted under the name "Frank Trollman" if he wanted.
Were did you get that idea? Dumpshock isn't owned by CGL. Don't piss on Dumpshock because you said stupid shit.

Randal Bills is a moderator at Dumpshock. Therefore, my statement "he runs the forum" is fairly accurate. Especially in the sense that he possess the ability to edit other users posts to say whatever he wants, and then not display that he has edited them.

It is quite possible that he has not done so. It is certainly not likely that he did so in this specific instance. But as point of fact, yes, he totally could do that, and yes, it's not much out of line of the actions he has already taken.

Taharqa · Post by **Taharqa** » Sat May 22, 2010 11:14 pm

Kaelik wrote: Randal Bills is a moderator at Dumpshock. Therefore, my statement "he runs the forum" is fairly accurate. Especially in the sense that he possess the ability to edit other users posts to say whatever he wants, and then not display that he has edited them.

It is quite possible that he has not done so. It is certainly not likely that he did so in this specific instance. But as point of fact, yes, he totally could do that, and yes, it's not much out of line of the actions he has already taken.

You are just building a deeper hole for yourself, man. Randall Bills is not a moderator on the dumpshock forums and the dumpshock forums are not owned nor operated by CGL.

A quick search of the members of dumpshock reveals that there is a user named Randall Bills who has left exactly 2 posts (about the street date for SR4LE) and 5 views.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Sat May 22, 2010 11:14 pm

It's quite a mistake for a laywer to use "the members" instead of "members".

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun May 23, 2010 12:42 am

Taharqa wrote:You are just building a deeper hole for yourself, man. Randall Bills is not a moderator on the dumpshock forums and the dumpshock forums are not owned nor operated by CGL.

A quick search of the members of dumpshock reveals that there is a user named Randall Bills who has left exactly 2 posts (about the street date for SR4LE) and 5 views.

My mistake, I confused Bull with Bill. In fact, he's an entirely different apologist asshole, with no financial relationship to IMR.

But you'll notice I never fucking claimed that dumpshock was owned or operated by CGL.

Kithkanan · Post by **Kithkanan** » Sun May 23, 2010 12:46 am

Glad we cleared it up that your not a liar, just lazy and stupid.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun May 23, 2010 1:05 am

Kithkanan wrote:Glad we cleared it up that your not a liar, just lazy and stupid.

Indeed, how incredibly lazy and stupid of me to not do two or more google searches for information on a random poster on a forum I've never posted on, and transpose one letter in a name on that same forum about a subject that I don't give a damn about, which is why I've made no fucking claims about the subject whatsoever.

Clearly, I am too lazy and stupid to live. You know though, you are pretty lazy and stupid yourself, seeing as you can't recite from memory every location that I've ever posted, nor have you done the google searches to find them.

It's almost like not putting in work for things you don't care about is a normal procedure that all people who don't have infinite time use.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sun May 23, 2010 1:19 am

I believe there's a quote from the TF2 soldier that applies well here:

"Take your lumps like a man, private twinkletoes."

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sun May 23, 2010 2:55 am

Taharqa wrote:Is it really that hard? But then this is precisely the lack of due diligence that I have been "whining" about on this forum.

T, you understand that Kaelik and Frank Trollman and, indeed, everyone in this thread are different people with different levels of involvement, correct? I know most people don't have pretty avatar pictures or giant signatures here, but do look at the little name and associate the content of the post with it.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun May 23, 2010 3:05 am

This is why I love this place. We're an out of the way, ghetto corner of the internet without fancy graphics or gifs or whatever, and when one person makes a comment about a gaming company their cronies come out of the woodwork and join for no other reason than to defend it.

Makes me feel important by association.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun May 23, 2010 3:07 am

I have a pretty picture!

-Crissa

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 am

Crissa wrote:I have a pretty picture!

-Crissa

I contend mine's prettier. Most days I wish I actually WAS a troll (but accept that I'm a human and in no way claim that I have "a soul of a troll" inside me or some BS.)

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun May 23, 2010 3:40 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:(but accept that I'm a human and in no way claim that I have "a soul of a troll" inside me or some BS.)

That's good to hear. Because I can assure you it's about time for another epic flamewar, and your troll soul is as good a subject as any.

Taharqa · Post by **Taharqa** » Sun May 23, 2010 4:14 am

A Man In Black wrote: T, you understand that Kaelik and Frank Trollman and, indeed, everyone in this thread are different people with different levels of involvement, correct? I know most people don't have pretty avatar pictures or giant signatures here, but do look at the little name and associate the content of the post with it.

No shit? Different people, you say? Huh, never would have thought of that myself.

Taharqa · Post by **Taharqa** » Sun May 23, 2010 4:44 am

Fuchs wrote:It's quite a mistake for a laywer to use "the members" instead of "members".

Just curious, is that the opinion of a lawyer? Because the only other lawyer to weigh in on it (that I have seen) disagrees.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:30 am

Apparently 'this other lawyer' is also a corporate whore. WTF 'the lawyer doesn't need to know'. Sheesh. Cash over success, I guess. I don't really get that business plan, myself, but apparently it's very successful.

But it doesn't have much to do with law.

-Crissa

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:54 am

Kithkanan wrote:Glad we cleared it up that your not a liar, just lazy and stupid.

It's important to realize that the minutiae of Dumpshock management is actually stuff that is very obscure. Even in the wider Shadowrun community, the vast majority of fans of the game do not understand or care how that works.

Here's how it works:

Bull is the admin, but he stepped down from being a moderator. He's the Mission Coordinator, but not one of the company managers (and no, I don't even know how you can direct a division without being a manager). Meanwhile dumpshock itself is listed in the actual books as being the forum to go to to talk about Shadowrun. But it's not an "official" forum, even though the admin is a company employee.

So: Randall Bills is Bull's boss, and Bull owns dumpshock. But dumpshock is an independently owned entity that goes with him if Randall Bills fires him. Which he has no intention of doing, because Bull is Randall Bills' friend, and willing to sexually harass a single mother in public in order to derail conversations about how fans can help out people that Randall Bills helped screw out of money.

Meanwhile, Randall Bills is one of 14 or 15 minority owners of IMR, any or all of whom may have had their partial ownership abrogated through fraud on Loren Coleman's part, but which some of the owners are apparently OK with because Bills and Horner are sticking by Loren Coleman to the point of actually lying in public on his behalf. Horner's first post on the subject was to claim that Loren Coleman had not expanded his house, which has been disproven by public real estate records.

So yeah, people saying "Randall Bills is in charge of Dumpshock" is ignorant, but it's a kind of ignorance that almost everyone in the entire fucking universe has. Because the subtleties of Randall Bills being the boss of the guy who owns dumpshock but not actually owning dumpshock himself is pretty fucking subtle. And outside the relatively small clique that is long term dumpshock posters, no one cares.

-Username17

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sun May 23, 2010 9:29 am

FrankTrollman wrote:So yeah, people saying "Randall Bills is in charge of Dumpshock" is ignorant, but it's a kind of ignorance that almost everyone in the entire fucking universe has.

I wouldn't even go that far. Its an indirect charge but I can't see Bull not taking orders from his boss with regards to the pseudo official messageboard of the company he works for.

Taharqa · Post by **Taharqa** » Sun May 23, 2010 5:16 pm

Draco_Argentum wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:So yeah, people saying "Randall Bills is in charge of Dumpshock" is ignorant, but it's a kind of ignorance that almost everyone in the entire fucking universe has.
I wouldn't even go that far. Its an indirect charge but I can't see Bull not taking orders from his boss with regards to the pseudo official messageboard of the company he works for.

Is indirect charge a synonym for "innuendo?" The fact that the mods at dumpshock have allowed the conversation to continue while any mention of the legal case has been pruned from the official battletech boards suggests a good deal of independence to me.

But this is really beating a dead horse. The entire "dumpshock mod" tangent began because somebody Kaelik made a couple of fallacious arguments that have now been clearly shown to be wrong. So lets get back to more serious concerns like whether CGL is a front for the Mormon Mafia and whether I am actually secretly Loren Coleman.

Centurion13 · Post by **Centurion13** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:02 pm

Taharqa wrote:... whether I am actually secretly Loren Coleman.

+1

Cent13

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:12 pm

Taharqa wrote:But this is really beating a dead horse. The entire "dumpshock mod" tangent began because somebody made a couple of fallacious arguments that have now been clearly shown to be wrong.

Why are you referring to yourself as "somebody" exactly?

Taharqa · Post by **Taharqa** » Sun May 23, 2010 6:29 pm

Kaelik wrote:
Taharqa wrote:But this is really beating a dead horse. The entire "dumpshock mod" tangent began because somebody made a couple of fallacious arguments that have now been clearly shown to be wrong.
Why are you referring to yourself as "somebody" exactly?

Seriously? After admitting just a few posts above that you were in error, you are going to pull this kind of bullshit? Have it your way, I will be more precise. That "somebody" is Kaelik.