Organ Markets in Shadowrun

[mean_liar]

Disposing of bodies is actually pretty easy to do. A commercial blender, a hacksaw, some decent tarps, a bolt-cutter, access to the municipal water system and the Gorton's Fisherman outfit and you're good to go.

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/n ... 56&k=26269

Admittedly these guys got caught, but they got caught because they didn't tarp the area they were working in. If they'd worked just out of the bathroom they'd have been okay.

Honestly though if you're stealing a body and fencing it's 'ware then the Fence is going to charge you an extra $500 or so for the body disposal. Otherwise, why steal a body?

[souran]

I think that Mean Liar is on to the most important point here.

Frank has managed to put together a system where 5% seems like a reasonable amount of money to get for used cyberware. However, Frank did not put together all the arguments first and then extract a final value of 5% from his arguement, he used the fact that the rules say you get 5% when selling used cyberware and that you can install used cyberware for 50% materials cost

The thing is 5% is a bullshit number with bullshit meaning and could easily be any other arbitrary number we want. We can then find the supporting facts to be consistant to what ever level floats our boat.

Honestly Franks first premise that humanoid bodies are not worth much relies on the premise that his better methods work in the ways described above. However, if the evil shadowrun version of monsanto develops a way to resequence genes like they do in star trek, and because we can literally write the technology to have whatever functionality level we want lets say it takes 1/10th the time to requence the genes in a kidney to make it an effective clone than it does to grow a clone in a vat. Then the organ harvesters are right back in the game because one of the other common rules for cyberpunk is that people are cheap and equipment is expensive If its cheaper for Megaphizer to kidnap people off the street, and perform medico-techno-magic to them than it is to build the cloning vat then as I have always understood shadowrun that is what they would do.

Anyway, the 5% return on havervested cybperware seems like its clearly a number designed to disallow activity by making it futile. The author's did not want shadowrunners to stop and hack to tiny bits every cybered up person they had to take down because their bodies are litterally made of cash. However, if you were really gruesome there is still the possibilty to profit from it.

Additionally the idea that there is a stable "half price" used cyberware market is equally silly. Its there to provide a mechanic for play not to represent anything real. Think of it this way: if you go to a used car dealership do you expect that most of the cars on the lot will be half the price of a new car? You would be crazy to buy even a 2009 model car for half sticker price. Its only in the world of rpgs that used things are worth half the price of new things, and its so ingraned that changing it away from that causes people to lose their shit completely, like people do over 4e's economy.


A used object has value in porportion to its current condition and all the elements that contains. Additionally, there are market theories that you can use to predict sales prices of used objects. Most used objects can only be resold for between 1/10th and 1/4th of their original value (obviously this does not apply to objects whose value has increased due to being collectible or rare). This is one of the things that people who deal in both antiques or frequent garage sales learn. Resold goods sell for MUCH less than "sticker" price.

I don't have a better method of setting resale prices in shadowrun. The 5%/50% is not defective. I just think that its deluding ourselves to act like the justification for these values came first and the fixed values second. Its pretty clear it was exactly opposite that.

[Username17]

I think that Mean Liar is on to the most important point here.

Frank has managed to put together a system where 5% seems like a reasonable amount of money to get for used cyberware. However, Frank did not put together all the arguments first and then extract a final value of 5% from his arguement, he used the fact that the rules say you get 5% when selling used cyberware and that you can install used cyberware for 50% materials cost

Actually no. I thought long and hard about the economics of used cyberware, and then I developed a system that made sense to me, and then I wrote the chapter in Augmentation that tells you that you get 5% for selling the cyberware to a ripperdoc.

Because getting more than that is really pretty ridiculous.

-Username17

[souran]

Actually no. I thought long and hard about the economics of used cyberware, and then I developed a system that made sense to me, and then I wrote the chapter in Augmentation that tells you that you get 5% for selling the cyberware to a ripperdoc.

Because getting more than that is really pretty ridiculous.

-Username17

Well, then I was wrong cannot really argue with the author about author's intent. However, in the end you still picked an arbitrary value, not that there is anything wrong with that, as a game shadowrun needs rules those rules have to be useable. The fact that most used cyberware is probably more valuable as scrap metal or aluminum recycling can be hidden behind the fixed value. However, the very abstraction of a fixed value for used equipment selling is done for ease of play and not for accuracy.


Also, when you say this

Because getting more than that is really pretty ridiculous.

is that one element considered is that it turns people with cyberware into walking piles of money? A person with 10k in cyberware is worth 500. If you doubled the percentage then a person with only 3333 in cyberware probaly has has more value in cyberware than they do in their wedding ring (average cost of a mens wedding bad in the U.S. currently is $200-$400 dollars and womans bands are about 150% of that on average.) Setting that percange even a little more generous could result in a world where its better to mug a guy for his cyber eyes than his rolex.

[Kaelik]

Well, then I was wrong cannot really argue with the author about author's intent. However, in the end you still picked an arbitrary value

No, he picked a value on price of used ware based on numerous considerations of process to convert it back to usable ware.

That's not arbitrary, that's reasoned.

You don't like the reasoning, or you wish it worked under different reasoning, fine. But it's still not arbitrary.

[souran]

Well, then I was wrong cannot really argue with the author about author's intent. However, in the end you still picked an arbitrary value

No, he picked a value on price of used ware based on numerous considerations of process to convert it back to usable ware.

That's not arbitrary, that's reasoned.

You don't like the reasoning, or you wish it worked under different reasoning, fine. But it's still not arbitrary.

The final value is arbitrary. There is no mathematics in the logic to support a specific value of 5%. Arbitrary does not mean unreasonable. He picked a value based on the logic he developed. He did not derive a value from test evidence or develop a theory of value based on sample transactions. That makes the 5% arbitrary.

[mean_liar]

Because getting more than that is really pretty ridiculous.

Can you actually back that up with any other references to rules or pricing guidelines? I thought I did a pretty good job laying out the costs from the bottom-up. Almost all of the costs involved are going to be set costs rather than percentages.

For someone that likes Dungeons and Logistics so much I'm a little surprised that you think every step on a supply chain is taking a percentage cut rather than charging a fee, and why their expertise that's worth (say) $1k shoots up to $25k for dealing with expensive hardware, and why competition isn't driving that $25k/service gent out of the blackmarket business.

A master craftsman that has to repair your chairs is going to charge a lot, but he's still charging for his time rather than the price of your dinette set.

Plus it makes more sense. 5% just sounds like a scrap cost for parts - removing 'ware safely, refurbishing it and what-not is a minimum set cost, not a percentage.

[RiotGearEpsilon]

Sure. I could see some kind of magic that would turn one person's organ into another person's organ. Why not? It's magic... ...That could be a viable business model.

Also conveniently, aren't the major organ-leggers also in to creepy ritual magic?

[ubernoob]

Because getting more than that is really pretty ridiculous.

Can you actually back that up with any other references to rules or pricing guidelines? I thought I did a pretty good job laying out the costs from the bottom-up. Almost all of the costs involved are going to be set costs rather than percentages.

For someone that likes Dungeons and Logistics so much I'm a little surprised that you think every step on a supply chain is taking a percentage cut rather than charging a fee, and why their expertise that's worth (say) $1k shoots up to $25k for dealing with expensive hardware, and why competition isn't driving that $25k/service gent out of the blackmarket business.

A master craftsman that has to repair your chairs is going to charge a lot, but he's still charging for his time rather than the price of your dinette set.

Plus it makes more sense. 5% just sounds like a scrap cost for parts - removing 'ware safely, refurbishing it and what-not is a minimum set cost, not a percentage.

The more expensive the hardware you're playing with, the more risk your middleman betrays you and just straight up steals it. As such, you ALWAYS charge on a sliding scale when dealing with expensive things outside of the eyes of the law simply because you don't want your middleman noticing that it's more profitable for him to just take your shit than to continue doing business with you.

[mean_liar]

That's a risk, but those are also the people that end up as dead examples: chopped up in an apartment bathroom flushed down one blender-load at a time. Just like having a 50lb chunk of uranium in your garage, it may be expensive and make you a rich man on paper but if you can't sell it you're fucked.

Truckers hauling mass quantities of drugs make great wages... and don't disappear with the trucks that often. Fuck, those trucks are worth $400k+, to say nothing of the drugs. But that gets you dead, because if you can't go out and kill a man and score that man's high-end ware and instead make your wage working a bench really well, then you don't have what it takes to not end up dead.

[Blasted]

Also conveniently, aren't the major organ-leggers also in to creepy ritual magic?

Having the extra organs as a side business makes a lot more sense to me. Prolly works better as a hook, too.

[ubernoob]

That's a risk, but those are also the people that end up as dead examples: chopped up in an apartment bathroom flushed down one blender-load at a time. Just like having a 50lb chunk of uranium in your garage, it may be expensive and make you a rich man on paper but if you can't sell it you're fucked.

Truckers hauling mass quantities of drugs make great wages... and don't disappear with the trucks that often. Fuck, those trucks are worth $400k+, to say nothing of the drugs. But that gets you dead, because if you can't go out and kill a man and score that man's high-end ware and instead make your wage working a bench really well, then you don't have what it takes to not end up dead.

Mean liar, you've never dealt with anything illegal in your life, have you? The more money is involved, the bigger the temptation. Higher fixed wages increase the rational to keep it slow and steady instead of trying to hit the jackpot.

[mean_liar]

I don't think I'd like to discuss my bona fides but I will say that I have/had several friends in prison for various crimes, and others that weren't so unlucky.

I'm not a made man, if that's what you're asking.

I have had enough exposure to know that there is a recognized gulf between professionals and the goon squad. Sure, if you're dumping off a $100k piece of gear you're going to be very particular about who you're working with - but rep is always everything. At the lower-stakes range up to $20k, where the vast majority of 'ware is going to be at, you're still selective but you don't need to be calling one guy. Just like chop shops, there are going to be people you trust and people you don't, and the ones that earn the trust get the steady business and the ones that are shady get to work with the other flakes for small change and screw each other over.

In the worst-case scenario you'd put a man on it to guard it while it's getting worked on. Add another $2k for a night watchman with an option for hazard pay, but not only is it going to be rare that you'd be pawning such a piece of gear you're very, very likely to score it back. It's not going to be a common problem and the risks can be minimized for low rent.

[ubernoob]

I don't think I'd like to discuss my bona fides but I will say that I have/had several friends in prison for various crimes, and others that weren't so unlucky.

I'm not a made man, if that's what you're asking.

I have had enough exposure to know that there is a recognized gulf between professionals and the goon squad. Sure, if you're dumping off a $100k piece of gear you're going to be very particular about who you're working with - but rep is always everything. At the lower-stakes range up to $20k, where the vast majority of 'ware is going to be at, you're still selective but you don't need to be calling one guy. Just like chop shops, there are going to be people you trust and people you don't, and the ones that earn the trust get the steady business and the ones that are shady get to work with the other flakes for small change and screw each other over.

In the worst-case scenario you'd put a man on it to guard it while it's getting worked on. Add another $2k for a night watchman with an option for hazard pay, but not only is it going to be rare that you'd be pawning such a piece of gear you're very, very likely to score it back. It's not going to be a common problem and the risks can be minimized for low rent.

Right, but you do realize that the higher the potential profit the more people are willing to invest to get it, right? AKA hire goons to take out YOUR goon. The more money involved, the more you end up paying people involved.

Seriously, it's just a high risk investment. Higher risk means more security in the form of bribes, hired goons, paying people enough that they would rather work for you twice than steal from you, etc. You haven't refuted my point that more expensive wares without protection by the law jacks the middleman fees up proportionately.

[K]

On a tangent, why don't they implant Critter organs?

Because this happens.

Xeno transplants are incredibly hard. We use pig valves because we can clean them off real good. We don't implant growing pig tissue because that would be attacked by the human immune system.

A lot of bioware is based on critter organs. You genetically engineer something to have the internal cell workings of something awesome like clam musculature and yet still have the surface of human cells.

I realize that altering the physical structures allows for new or better functions.... but I meant magical properties. Like, slap on some Hellhound lungs, mouth, and throat and blow fire at peeps.

I mean, xeno transplants are hard, but they are doable. And this is Shadowrun.... handling something like tissue rejection doesn't seem like a insurmountable problem when you have cyberzombies and the like. (Heck, there have been some RL research where they hide foreign tissues in seaweed and the human immune system won't react to it.)

[Murtak]

I realize that altering the physical structures allows for new or better functions.... but I meant magical properties. Like, slap on some Hellhound lungs, mouth, and throat and blow fire at peeps.

I mean, xeno transplants are hard, but they are doable. And this is Shadowrun.... handling something like tissue rejection doesn't seem like a insurmountable problem when you have cyberzombies and the like. (Heck, there have been some RL research where they hide foreign tissues in seaweed and the human immune system won't react to it.)

According to Shadowrun lore, cloning magicians does not net you more magicians than cloning mundanes. No one has figured out why magical people are magical yet. And "being magical" pretty much drives any magical properties and abilities. So even if you did successfully transplant hellhound parts you still would not be able to breathe fire. Transplanting dragon wings does not let you fly. Those are magical abilities and they are not bound to organs (other than the standard "lose essence, lose magic" deal).

Now, you could gain the mundane properties of animals that way. I imagine fire resistance, armor and increased strength all can all be found as mundane properties of some animal (awakened or not). But then, cyber- and bioware already does that.

[spasheridan]

I always saw the cyberware cost as including things like implantation & planning. A lot of the cyberware also grows inside your body - so wired reflexes has a few modules and then it gets these nanites that grow along your nervous system. The nanites die after they do their job, but you had to pay for them for implantation.

Or, more succinctly put, the book price of cyberware is parts & labor, the resale value is only based on parts discounted for the cleanup.

[Username17]

A dog cloned from a hell hound is very likely to be a normal dog. A Hell Hound that has pieces of it lopped off loses Essence and thus Magic. When its Magic hits zero, its powers go away. So you likely can't install Hell Hound fire glands into people. They would end up being golden retriever thyroid tissue or something.

But I do think that the world is ready for straight up using small meta animals as clothing or even symbiotes. Why not put a meta-clam in your abdominal cavity to help cleanse toxins from your body? Or allow meta leeches to constantly feed on you while they use their powers to keep their host alive?

-Username17

[K]

I realize that altering the physical structures allows for new or better functions.... but I meant magical properties. Like, slap on some Hellhound lungs, mouth, and throat and blow fire at peeps.

I mean, xeno transplants are hard, but they are doable. And this is Shadowrun.... handling something like tissue rejection doesn't seem like a insurmountable problem when you have cyberzombies and the like. (Heck, there have been some RL research where they hide foreign tissues in seaweed and the human immune system won't react to it.)

According to Shadowrun lore, cloning magicians does not net you more magicians than cloning mundanes. No one has figured out why magical people are magical yet. And "being magical" pretty much drives any magical properties and abilities. So even if you did successfully transplant hellhound parts you still would not be able to breathe fire. Transplanting dragon wings does not let you fly. Those are magical abilities and they are not bound to organs (other than the standard "lose essence, lose magic" deal).

Now, you could gain the mundane properties of animals that way. I imagine fire resistance, armor and increased strength all can all be found as mundane properties of some animal (awakened or not). But then, cyber- and bioware already does that.

I don't mean cloning, I mean transfer. Once Awakened, something is Awakened.

I mean, cybermancy can literally keep a soul in a body that is basically dead. It follows that it might keep fire-production in some organs.

I don't know. Essence/MR has always been one of the dumber parts of Shadowrun. It could do with a rewrite.

[spasheridan]

Essence & Magic are all about Aura's. One of the theme's in shadowrun is corruption. The corps corrupt the earth, the nations. Purity rises up to defend the earth - AKA the great ghost dance & magic. Magic has always been in opposition to technology & corruption - it's "all natural".

You see this theme in mundane vs virgin telasma. You see it in essence vs magic. Toxic spirits, background counts from slaughter houses.

The horrors are the ultimate corruption of the earth and magic.

So - your magic organ, once removed from your body, is also removed from your aura and your connection to astral space. It looses it's magic power because of this, and it probably messes up your aura as well.

In earthdawn you could probably fix that with some crazy true name magic, rewriting your pattern to fit the new hellhound face you've grafted onto your body. Shadowrun isn't there yet.

[Crissa]

I think this article is vaguely in theme for this.

-Crissa

[Murtak]

I don't mean cloning, I mean transfer. Once Awakened, something is Awakened.

And I'm telling you that this is a property of the whole creature, not of any body parts. Dragons do not fly with their wings, it is established canon that their wings can not support them. Dragons fly because they are magical. Or, if you prefer, because they spent adept points or dragon points on the flight power. Similarly the hellhound package includes fiery breath, but this is not a property of any of it's body parts.

And even if it did, cutting up magical beings kills of their powers. Cutting up a hellhound will in all likelihood destroy its ability to breathe fire. Why would the organ you transplanted retain the ability, much less grant it?

I mean, cybermancy can literally keep a soul in a body that is basically dead. It follows that it might keep fire-production in some organs.

Actually it can not. What you can do is to permanently bind someone's soul though, and then use that to possess the original body. But even if you could, how does that relate to transplanting organs? At all?

[CatharzGodfoot]

I mean, cybermancy can literally keep a soul in a body that is basically dead. It follows that it might keep fire-production in some organs.

Actually it can not. What you can do is to permanently bind someone's soul though, and then use that to possess the original body. But even if you could, how does that relate to transplanting organs? At all?

That should be pretty obvious. You bind the soul of the hellhound to its uvula or whatever.

[K]

I mean, cybermancy can literally keep a soul in a body that is basically dead. It follows that it might keep fire-production in some organs.

Actually it can not. What you can do is to permanently bind someone's soul though, and then use that to possess the original body. But even if you could, how does that relate to transpsoullanting organs? At all?

That should be pretty obvious. You bind the soul of the hellhound to its uvula or whatever.

Right. I mean, cybermancy binds a soul to a collection of cyberware... why couldn't you bind a Awakened soul to some thematically appropriate organ? It's no weirder than anything else in Shadowrun.

Clearly, your organs contain your magic.... this is why cutting them out or damaging them with drugs messes up your magic.

It's not even a question of CAN YOU DO IT.... this is a fantasy RPG with magic and advanced technology like magic. The only question is: IS IT THEMATIC FOR THE SETTING?

[spasheridan]

K - clearly your organs do NOT contain your magic. The whole aura / essence theme means that the entirety of your body creates your connection to your magic.

So - removing your arm doesn't reduce your magic. Replacing your arm with a cyber arm does. This is a weird disconnect, and mostly game balance, but it clearly shows that your aura doesn't stick with your arm after it gets chopped off.

Earlier editions had deadly wounds cause potential magic loss - they ditched those rules when they changed the damage system - but it was a more logical extension of the "body changed = aura changed" than the current "no legs and arms is still the same"