The Shadowrun Situation

[Taharqa]

If there's no disagreement that IMR/CGL fucked up, why should they retain the license, regardless of whatever else happens?

I can only speak from the Battletech side of things. I hope they retain the license because (1) I like what they are doing in terms of products and the development of the universe, and (2) I trust them (and Randall Bills in particular) in particular to continue to develop the universe in the right way. After the WizKids ClickyTech debacle, many of us on the BattleTech side of things are happy that the universe is in the hands of someone who deeply cares about it. I see no reason to want to risk that on an unknown entity. So when Randall says, "Sorry, but we are working to fix this," I am predisposed to believe it. It doesn't mean that I don't view it with a good deal of trepidation, given what has gone down, but I would rather be optimistic, where my optimism reflects my own pragmatic self-interests.

[Username17]

Crissa--That both sides are acting that way isn't an argument, it's a perspective. I personally feel that there have been mistakes made on both sides in the handling of this problem since it became public. I'm not commenting on the actions they've taken in private, but the forum posts and press releases have made both sides look bad. If one side is looking worse than the other, that depends on which side you believe and it isn't my place to tell you what to believe.

Each side has their own arguments about what actions one or the other may have taken--Truth is a three-edged sword though.

The point, Stephen, is that no one here respects false equivalence arguments. Saying "both sides have made mistakes" is a safe thing to say because it's almost certainly true. But it is not in any way useful. And while that shit might fly without comment on Dumpshock, here it does not.

Empty statements of that sort are derided for being the mealy mouthed wastes of time that they are. Yes, I understand that I initially incorrectly identified a couple of numbers even in my very first post. That doesn't put me on the same level of deliberate deception as when Randall Bills and Jason Hardy came out to assure everyone that Cthulhutech books were not unable to be sold because WildFire had withdrawn copyright pending late payments. That was a deliberate deception on their part, since the reality was far worse - that WildFire had canceled their distribution contract altogether because of persistent nonpayment. It's not in the same category at all. It's "wrong" in both cases, so you'd technically be telling the truth if you said "both statements contained inaccuracies" but the fact is that the thrust of one statement was true while the thrust of the other was attempting to portray black as white and night as day.

You're welcome to take me to task for specific inaccuracies or even to challenge my interpretation of events. Hell, you can even come out swinging and accuse me of being unethical or even criminal like so many of Loren's defenders have been doing of late. But don't insult our fucking intelligence by claiming that the fact that there aren't any perfect people that everyone is the same.

Ultimate good and ultimate evil may not exist, but there is still better and there is still worse. And running the company into the ground while having yourself a mansion in Snohomish and neglecting to pay people who had done work for you is still worse. Worse than anything I have ever done in my entire life, for example.

-Username17

[Crissa]

WTF made clicktech a 'debacle'? It was an attempt to get more people to play the game. I know it wasn't my spouse's favorite game, but it got her playing battletech again for the first time in twenty years.

Lots of the click games didn't sell. But they were hardly to the detriment of their main licensees.

-Crissa

[BishopMcQ]

Frank--
Understood. As you can tell from my post count, I don't play here much. My main point was to answer LaughingMan who is pretending that this was an insidious ploy. Crissa's response seemed to pick the first line instead of attacking the actual meat of the post. If someone wants to attack me or correct me, do so but don't pick a throwaway line to do it over.

I know the score, far too well and wasn't trying to insult the intelligence of anyone here. It's not my place to correct the figures, I will leave that to everyone else. The day I go on record, I will likely be under oath with a ream of emails and notes from meetings submitted.

[A Man In Black]

WTF made clicktech a 'debacle'? It was an attempt to get more people to play the game. I know it wasn't my spouse's favorite game, but it got her playing battletech again for the first time in twenty years.

Lots of the click games didn't sell. But they were hardly to the detriment of their main licensees.

Why, the fact that Taharqa didn't like it! Nevermind that it was a solid seller for a couple years (which is a good long life for a collectable game that isn't MTG) and had its own following, it annoyed the old guard.

[Username17]

Frank--
Understood. As you can tell from my post count, I don't play here much. My main point was to answer LaughingMan who is pretending that this was an insidious ploy. Crissa's response seemed to pick the first line instead of attacking the actual meat of the post. If someone wants to attack me or correct me, do so but don't pick a throwaway line to do it over.

I know the score, far too well and wasn't trying to insult the intelligence of anyone here. It's not my place to correct the figures, I will leave that to everyone else. The day I go on record, I will likely be under oath with a ream of emails and notes from meetings submitted.

No problem. I'd actually welcome more of your insight, either on or off the record, because you have a perspective that I haven't heard much from.

And yeah, this website is pretty unique. It's considered OK here to tell someone to go suck a barrel of cocks, but it's not considered OK to tell someone that no one's perfect so every perspective is equally valid. The first is an insult (which is OK), the second one is a fallacy (specifically: false equivalence), which is not. But again, no problem. I know what a low post count means.

Welcome to the Den. We will steal your car, burn your house, rape your wife, and kill your dog. Then we will say mean things to or about you. On the internet.

-Username17

[Crissa]

Crissa's response seemed to pick the first line instead of attacking the actual meat of the post.

Sorry, I didn't actually have anything to say about the rest of your post! That particular fallacy is one of my peeves of late.

Why, the fact that Taharqa didn't like it! Nevermind that it was a solid seller for a couple years (which is a good long life for a collectable game that isn't MTG) and had its own following, it annoyed the old guard.

Yeah, some stores couldn't keep it in stock, other stores couldn't sell it. Personally, I loved it, but I like little plastic models. The game's balance was wonky, but so are all the click games. Sammi suggested once we had enough pieces, we could just go back to the old Battletech rules.

-Crissa

[Taharqa]

WTF made clicktech a 'debacle'? It was an attempt to get more people to play the game. I know it wasn't my spouse's favorite game, but it got her playing battletech again for the first time in twenty years.

Lots of the click games didn't sell. But they were hardly to the detriment of their main licensees.

Why, the fact that Taharqa didn't like it! Nevermind that it was a solid seller for a couple years (which is a good long life for a collectable game that isn't MTG) and had its own following, it annoyed the old guard.

Yes, it did. Because it completely gave the finger to the loyal fans of the game. I realize this might be difficult to understand for RPG folks, who are used to seeing complete rewrites of rules, edition to edition, but Battletech rules are basically the same today as they were 25 years ago. And most of the fans of Battletech like it that way and the current management likes it that way. ClickyTech abandoned the existing fanbase to pursue new markets which turned out to be short-lived. Why risk that same thing happening again?

Interestingly, some of the btech folks on this board are bitching about the direction CGL has taken the game in, namely the Jihad and the Dark Age. But of course, CGL really had no choice because the Dark Age storyline is the one that they had to follow when WizKids was calling the shots, and at this point the investments made in that storyline are too great to change. If anything, CGL has managed to rectify some of the more egregious problems in the storyline by filling in the blanks IMO. If people think the license moving to another company is going to change the storyline, they should be careful what the wish for.

[Crissa]

So, Tarq, you must just loathe that the Microsoft videogames have tons more players.

-Crissa

[A Man In Black]

Yes, it did. Because it completely gave the finger to the loyal fans of the game. I realize this might be difficult to understand for RPG folks, who are used to seeing complete rewrites of rules, edition to edition, but Battletech rules are basically the same today as they were 25 years ago. And most of the fans of Battletech like it that way and the current management likes it that way. ClickyTech abandoned the existing fanbase to pursue new markets which turned out to be short-lived. Why risk that same thing happening again?

And if you did like both classic BT and MWDA, if you don't mind rules rewrites (or, you know, beer-and-pretzels minigames you can play in half an hour with little-to-no paperwork), you're not part of the "existing fanbase" or the "loyal fans." Sorry, T, I'm just not a true Scotsman, am I.

[Clutch9800]

From my discussions with Paul Stansel

Frank,

Why in the wide wide world of sports name would you be talking with David's dad?

[Username17]

From my discussions with Paul Stansel

Frank,

Why in the wide wide world of sports name would you be talking with David's dad?

1. He is one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit, who until that point hadn't come up in conversation at all.
2. I had questions, so I asked him some of them.
3. It's the internet, you can find these people if you search for them.

-Username17

[Taharqa]

And if you did like both classic BT and MWDA, if you don't mind rules rewrites (or, you know, beer-and-pretzels minigames you can play in half an hour with little-to-no paperwork), you're not part of the "existing fanbase" or the "loyal fans." Sorry, T, I'm just not a true Scotsman, am I.

Not at all, we have had a lot of MWDA refugees coming over to CBT, and the more the merrier.

This is all neither here nor there, however, as the original question I was answering was

If there's no disagreement that IMR/CGL fucked up, why should they retain the license, regardless of whatever else happens?

To which my answer was because they have been producing good shit on the Battletech side of things. So, I would rather hope that they can survive and produce more good shit. Frank is trying to convince the world that (1) they can't possibly survive because they are massively in the red, and (2) they are so morally reprehensible that no one should want them to survive. I have serious doubts (Concern Troll!) about both arguments.

[Clutch9800]

3. It's the internet, you can find these people if you search for them.

Of course you can. But why in the heck would you?

I mean being able........you know what. Fuck it. Let's party.

This is how we do it! It's Friday night

Clutch

[magnuskn]

WTF made clicktech a 'debacle'? It was an attempt to get more people to play the game. I know it wasn't my spouse's favorite game, but it got her playing battletech again for the first time in twenty years.

Lots of the click games didn't sell. But they were hardly to the detriment of their main licensees.

-Crissa

IMHO opinion, it was that it killed the main timelines ( Classic BT for me ) storyline, since at the moment of Clickytechs inception the old timelines novels were discontinued. That, in turn, led to demotivation among the playerbase of Classic Battletech. They tried to fix it later by continueing the storyline in the sourcebooks, rather than in novels, but as far as I see it, a lot of people who like CBT dislike that the future of "their" universe was dictated into "Devlin Stone conquers everything".

[Asbestos Underwear]

I think WildFire signed on because they really need the money. Their website was straight down for a while today because their own payments were late. According to WildFire (and I believe them in this), IMR owes them about thirty seven thousand dollars. That's actually a lot of money for a company that small.

I don't doubt that Wildfire's owed a lot of money, but this still makes no sense. The license is going to die in a few days. IMR has considerable debts and, sans the SR and BT licenses, no meaningful revenue stream. A bankruptcy would be inevitable. Why would a company that's in financial distress throw money into the Tartarian abyss that is the adversarial legal process when a voluntary bankruptcy is near certain in a few weeks?

No one's been able to identify a good reason for Wildfire to file now instead of just waiting. It's not like they get repayment priority just because they brought the suit that forced the bankruptcy. They're stuck in the exact same place in the payment queue as they'd otherwise be in. And if the bankruptcy happens tomorrow or in a month wouldn't make any real difference to how much they get paid, since any shady financial shit LC and RB try to do as the proverbial castle burns to the ground can be unwound by a bankruptcy trustee. So, same result at higher cost, why?

And that's before you even get to the risks of trying to force someone into bankruptcy. I've asked a couple lawyers I know about this process. Both said it was rare, almost never works, and often results in damages being given to the target company. Those were general statements and it would appear that the case here is better than most, but there's still a non-zero chance that this gambit will backfire and Wildfire will end up bankrupt itself. Waiting for IMR to go tits up, in contrast, involves almost no risk.

Also, and I don't think this has been mentioned in any of the many "What the hell's up with IMR?" threads around the internet, my lawyer friends tell me that petitioning companies are often forced to post a bond against damages if their case does make it past an initial hearing. Why would Wildfire want to risk getting a hunk of its limited cash buffer trapped in a bond until the bankruptcy proceeding is over? That could cripple them right as they're looking to fund reprints of their core books and new product development.

The possibility of getting jammed with fees and damages and/or forced to contribute to a bond may explain why other creditors haven't stepped forward to join the petition and are content to let Wildfire, Sugarbroad and Stansel carry their water.

Of course, if Wildfire and the other creditors thought IMR could actually retain the license and string things along without paying for many more months, the picture would be totally different. But that'll be impossible if IMR's books are as bad as claimed, so the suit seems like an expensive, potentially dangerous, stupid exercise.

P.S. People grousing about the BT timeline are idiots. The Jihad and Dark Age are asinine plot developments, but they're probably going to be forced onto any licensee by Topps. Blame Stackpole and Weisman. Topps owns all the MWDA books and miscellaneous IP. A licensee who wants to change the universe and render them valueless will have to PAY for the privilege, or demonstrate that they'll make so much money by changing things that any residual value of the MWDA novels and other IP is outweighed by new royalties.

[Fuchs]

Or they expect to be able to get at Loren Coleman's personal fortune.

[Clutch9800]

I can piss thirty seven thousand dollars.

What's your point?

Clutch

[Jay Levine]

Here is a link to Sandstorm Productions, LLC. Notice the names here: Jennifer Harding, David Stansel-Garner, and Steve McQuillian. So, it appears that several of the refugees from CGL have formed their own company. LaughingMan's post indicated that this new company was one of the company's bidding for the licenses. Not substantiated to be sure, but I would put good money on it, considering the people involved. It certainly dovetails with suspicions that I have had for a long time now, namely that the people calling for Truth and Justice in this mess are actually using that as a cover to pursue their own self-interests. At the very least, it makes one very suspicious of Jennifer Harding's oft-cited claims of malfeasance, beyond the usual "axe-grinding" argument. It also suggests that Stanel-Garner taking all of CGL's financial info with him on his computer was motivated by more than just spite. But, the big picture here is that hopefully we can now move beyond the silly good v. evil framing of this mess and see it for what it most likely is: the machinations of two warring factions, with a lot of bad blood thrown in for good measure.

I don't think any of those three people have claimed to be fighting for Truth and Justice. I think the only person that has made a claim even resembling that is Frank.

Over on Dumpshock, I know that most of the involved freelancers have been very clear that they are speaking out of self-interest, whatever that results in. I can sure as hell tell you that I speak out of my own self-interest. That doesn't mean that I'm being evasive, duplicitous, or scheming.

The audit isn't based on contracts at all. They don't have the contracts. They just have the list of checks they sent out and the note on each check. That's literally their entire records. They probably got even that much from the bank. So people who signed contracts and didn't get paid? Those aren't in their internal audit! Oops!

I can confirm what Frank says here. I got my audit document in the mail today. It doesn't refer to contracts at all, just checks. And one of the checks is connected to the wrong book on the audit document. I will be correcting it and sending it back, because I think this audit is long overdue, but I am totally unsurprised that there are corrections to be made.

Awww Frankie no love for me? A bright guy like you must have seen he wasn't in some noble quest but in the middle of a power struggle. Come on you are pointing at Tito to pave the way for Milosevic to be the savior.

You can't really be that simple minded that you think there are just two sides to all this? You don't really think that WW2 had just two sides do you?

You might notice that the three Sandstorm folks are all paid up. Everyone else? Not so much. Though good to see Jen finally come out in the open about her employer.

LaughingMan...grow some balls. I don't always agree with Frank, but at least his posts are not anonymous, pompous taunts from someone who is clearly a bit too self-absorbed.

For the record, I'm all paid up. And not affiliated with Sandstorm.

[Asbestos Underwear]

Fuchs, don't be a dipshit. Stop pretending to understand things you obviously don't. You couldn't even hold your own in lame, sissy Dumbshock-land. The end result of a forced bankruptcy and a voluntary bankruptcy are exactly the same. If Wildfire can get to LLC through the forced bankruptcy, they'd be able to get to LLC when IMR eventually declares bankruptcy after losing the licenses. There's no functional difference between the two once the bankruptcy actually begins, so your point has no bearing whatsoever on my observations about the timing and value of the current effort.

[Crissa]

Why would a company that's in financial distress throw money into the Tartarian abyss that is the adversarial legal process when a voluntary bankruptcy is near certain in a few weeks?

Because of where the money went. Without forcing the hand, the Colemans can strong things along, then close up shop, and keep their house.

That basically means Loren closes out the accounts, and the creditors don't get anything.

I don't see how 'being tens of thousands in the hole' as a surety is really a fair bet vs 'being a thousand more in the hole with a chance of getting tens of thousands in return'.

A voluntary bankruptcy doesn't have to involve discovery, and the longer they wait, the more documents will be 'lost'. WTF, man, you think people should just throw up their hands, have the printers pulp the books, and we wait a year or so for the licenses to time out?

-Crissa

[Asbestos Underwear]

Why would a company that's in financial distress throw money into the Tartarian abyss that is the adversarial legal process when a voluntary bankruptcy is near certain in a few weeks?

Because of where the money went. Without forcing the hand, the Colemans can strong things along, then close up shop, and keep their house.

That basically means Loren closes out the accounts, and the creditors don't get anything.

I don't see how 'being tens of thousands in the hole' as a surety is really a fair bet vs 'being a thousand more in the hole with a chance of getting tens of thousands in return'.

A voluntary bankruptcy doesn't have to involve discovery, and the longer they wait, the more documents will be 'lost'. WTF, man, you think people should just throw up their hands, have the printers pulp the books, and we wait a year or so for the licenses to time out?

-Crissa

You should Google a bit. Bankruptcy, fraud and clawback should help out. So far as I can tell, fraudulent transfers and payment can be unwound several years after the fact. That includes the house stuff. Or any attempt by LC or RB to overpay themselves. Or closing the accounts and walking off. It's going to be really hard for either of them to walk away with any money, other than whatever share the bankruptcy court decides is fair.

There's no obvious benefit to the 1-2 month lead time from an involuntary filing now, vs. an involuntary filing after the licenses are lost or IMR files on its own. The current filing is more readily contested because IMR still has the licenses and a revenue stream, so much of the time gained vs. just waiting until the licenses are gone is going to be wasted in hearings. And at great expense to boot.

As for the "wait a year and pulp the books" bit, Jason Hardy says the license expires June 1. That's not exactly far away. I can see how "lost" documents would be a concern, but Wildfire presumably has it's own records, and they could prepare retrospective projections based on what was actually reported and what they're selling now.

I'll concede that a court order to preserve records is a pretty good reason to file now - best anyone's offered so far. The only other decent argument thrown around so far is that WildFire has to get paid ASAP or is going to fold itself. I hope things aren't that bleak.

[Edited to correctly quote you and address your edit]

[Username17]

IMR's response to invoices has been to simply not pay. Often for years at a time. I don't know that they would ever declare bankruptcy if they weren't brought to court about it. Normally, sure. A company whose deficits are bigger than their income calls it quits - they declare bankruptcy, the creditors fight it out over the assets, and the cheese stands alone. Loren Coleman doesn't play like that.

Loren Coleman is continuing to rack up debts to do projects that won't make money (like pdf-only releases of books contracted for print release) in order to get a revenue stream that he is apparently putting into a santa sack. So from my perspective, it certainly looks like waiting for IMR to declare bankruptcy might take a while. Like, maybe months or years. Even if they lose the license.

Remember, the hubris of these guys is amazing. When they were ordered to stop selling copies of Midnight, they kept selling copies for long enough to take orders from and ship to their primary distributors. When ordered to stop printing Cthulhutech books and sell off the remaining stock to pay back royalties, they kept selling books and kept not paying the royalties. I am not even sure they'd stop selling SR and BT books if they lost the license completely. I can almost guaranty that when they do lose the license they will "forget" to tell DriveThru for some time.

So I don't blame WildFire at all if they are super pissed to the point that they'll just take Coleman to court to watch him squirm. I also think it's a pretty reasonable position to believe that the Colemans will not declare bankruptcy at all before they are ordered to by a court.

-Username17

[Taharqa]

P.S. People grousing about the BT timeline are idiots. The Jihad and Dark Age are asinine plot developments, but they're probably going to be forced onto any licensee by Topps. Blame Stackpole and Weisman. Topps owns all the MWDA books and miscellaneous IP. A licensee who wants to change the universe and render them valueless will have to PAY for the privilege, or demonstrate that they'll make so much money by changing things that any residual value of the MWDA novels and other IP is outweighed by new royalties.

The devil is in the details, so they may not be able to change the overall timeline, but how we get from point A to point B could change considerably (Devlin Stone is an alien!) and there is also the possibility of a fundamental rules change akin to ClickyTech. I doubt Topps would excercise that much oversight over what are fairly small potatoes.

[A Man In Black]

To which my answer was because they have been producing good shit on the Battletech side of things. So, I would rather hope that they can survive and produce more good shit. Frank is trying to convince the world that (1) they can't possibly survive because they are massively in the red, and (2) they are so morally reprehensible that no one should want them to survive. I have serious doubts (Concern Troll!) about both arguments.

Problem with #1 is that the only reason they are able to make good shit the way you like it is by stealing it from the people who are making the good shit, in not paying freelancers, artists, etc. Their model for making the good shit is not sustainable, and you're seeing it go off the rails right now. If Coleman hadn't been a greedy fuck, then it probably would have taken longer to spiral out of control, but you can't not pay people forever.

IMR was a sick dog because of bad management practices. Coleman cruelly gutted it, but it was dying. Don't blame the people who are pointing out that the dog doesn't seem to be eating too often and is peeing all over the place, especially when the analogue to "peeing all over the place" is not paying people a fair fucking wage for their work.