Organ Markets in Shadowrun

[CatharzGodfoot]

Speed = distance / time. Saying that you can reduce travel time without increasing speed is literally nonsense. A 2=3 level of nonsense.

Folding space is the idea of shortening the distance between two points and then travelling from one point to the other. Think of this as stretching time.

[Username17]

Speed = distance / time. Saying that you can reduce travel time without increasing speed is literally nonsense. A 2=3 level of nonsense.

No.

Trivial example: going around the circle at 10 KPH will get you to the other side after the guy cutting across at 7 KPH gets there. That doesn't mean that 10 KPH is any slower than 7 KPH.

More relevant example:
If you teleport 16 kilometers, you are not faster than light, you simply are in a different place.

-Username17

[老子]

If you had said "the distance traveled is reduced by teleportation (or whatever)" then I wouldn't have an issue. But Frank said "You cover more distance and nothing else happens" which makes no sense. If you want to take that back or otherwise modify your assertion feel free to do so.

edit: seriously, how else should you read a statement like "you cover more distance" than as an assertion that Movement makes you travel more distance in the same amount of time?

[Murtak]

Fine, then take a more complicated example: speed of light. If you further accelerate while already going at the speed of light, you do not go any faster, but time slows down for you. The movement power causes something similar to happen at much lower speeds.

[Crissa]

Speed = distance / time. Saying that you can reduce travel time without increasing speed is literally nonsense. A 2=3 level of nonsense.

Well, sure.

Then you're speedier, faster, but you still don't have acceleration or velocity.

If you're a real pedantic astrophysics sort you just sort of internally grasp that speed ≠ velocity, even while that's how most people say it.

-Crissa

[老子]

Still not making sense. Take an object that isn't moving. Apply a movement power to it ends up 10ft to the left a few seconds later. According to Frank the speed doesn't increase because of the power so the speed stays at 0. So, how much distance does the object traverse? Answer: none at all (0 ft/s = x ft / a few seconds, x = 0). Consequently the object gets from A to B without traversing any of the intermediate space. In other words: every movement power can be used as a teleportation power if I am to believe Frank.

[Username17]

Still not making sense. Take an object that isn't moving. Apply a movement power to it ends up 10ft to the left a few seconds later. According to Frank the speed doesn't increase because of the power so the speed stays at 0. So, how much distance does the object traverse? Answer: none at all (0 ft/s = x ft / a few seconds, x = 0). Consequently the object gets from A to B without traversing any of the intermediate space. In other words: every movement power can be used as a teleportation power if I am to believe Frank.

No. An object that isn't moving doesn't get moved by movement. An object under movement moves as far in 1 second as it would have with its relative velocity in 6 seconds. But it does not have 36 times as much kinetic energy, nor does it take it any longer or more energy to speed up or slow down.

-Username17

[老子]

I'll see your insanity and raise you a power that makes exact duplicates of people, but which doesn't increase the number of hands, legs, etc present in the world.

[Murtak]

Presumably you can accept relative time (accelerating past the speed of light), liquids running up the wall (LHC cooling), light going in circles (nanoscale architecture) and teleportation-like effects (entanglement). Why do you have any issues with the movement power?

[Username17]

I'll see your insanity and raise you a power that makes exact duplicates of people, but which doesn't increase the number of hands, legs, etc present in the world.

No problem. Ability cost: One Other Person.

It just works like hyperdrives or warpdrives do in Science Fiction. You can't go any faster than light, so if you want to get places in a reasonable amount of time you need to adjust some other variable like distance or time. I really don't know why you're freaking out about this.

It's nowhere near as weird as the equal speed 3 dimensional movement that spirits have.

-Username17

[老子]

I'm not "freaking out", I'm observing that you aren't making sense. Next you will be telling me that we can get more force without changing mass or acceleration. Honestly you would be better off not pretending to have an explanation of how the movement power works and leaving it at that, because what you have now is worse than nothing at all.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I'm not "freaking out", I'm observing that you aren't making sense. Next you will be telling me that we can get more force without changing mass or acceleration. Honestly you would be better off not pretending to have an explanation of how the movement power works and leaving it at that, because what you have now is worse than nothing at all.

When you pretend to have an explanation, at least there are observable effects of using magic-based movement like having to reset your watch.

[Murtak]

I'm not "freaking out", I'm observing that you aren't making sense. Next you will be telling me that we can get more force without changing mass or acceleration. Honestly you would be better off not pretending to have an explanation of how the movement power works and leaving it at that, because what you have now is worse than nothing at all.

Look, as far as we know this behavior is quite normal in the real world, albeit under much more extreme conditions. We can also (again, under extreme conditions) apparently ignore gravity, friction, resistance, distance and causality. Again: this is stuff we can already do. The rules of physics as we know them break down if only you go small, fast, cold or hot enough. Why is it a big deal to have similar effects outside of a lab? Why aren't you up in arms about magic influencing thoughts? Why aren't you freaking out about simsense interfaces?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

The japanese characters are freaking out my screen. I am not sure why that is...

[kzt]

No... The upper limit of a scramjet's performance today is around mach 24 according to wikipedia.

However if memory serves you have to be going at least supersonic before the scramjet will even begin to operate.

That might be what Wiki says, but iirc Mach 9.6 for 12 seconds is the best anyone has actually done. And that was with a liquid hydrogen powered unmanned NASA test vehicle.

And yes, you have to boost it to over mach 3 for scramjet startup unless you have really clever engines, which nobody has actually built and made work.

[kzt]

Use of the Movement power does not make things impact any harder or fall apart from stress or become impossible to control. Primarily a balance issue with speeding up weaponry (and I include ramming people with drone cars as "weaponry"), but also to prevent arguments about what the fastest speed a garbage truck could handle if hypothetically it gained a whole lot of velocity without actually heating the engine any hotter.

What's odd is that the SR2 version of movement didn't work that way. It was noted as being able to cause the target to crash or take damage due to forcing it to perform maneuvers at unsafe speed. This was the version on Predator and Prey, not sure what was in the core SR2 book as I never got that, but the P&P notes said they replaced the core powers if there was conflict.

[TheFlatline]

I'm not "freaking out", I'm observing that you aren't making sense. Next you will be telling me that we can get more force without changing mass or acceleration. Honestly you would be better off not pretending to have an explanation of how the movement power works and leaving it at that, because what you have now is worse than nothing at all.

Yeah, but you're pissing and moaning that a magical effect, which specifically violates the laws of physics, doesn't follow the laws of physics.

It's magic. It's supposed to break the rules.

Next you'll be pissing and moaning that trolls don't exist.

[TheFlatline]

Use of the Movement power does not make things impact any harder or fall apart from stress or become impossible to control. Primarily a balance issue with speeding up weaponry (and I include ramming people with drone cars as "weaponry"), but also to prevent arguments about what the fastest speed a garbage truck could handle if hypothetically it gained a whole lot of velocity without actually heating the engine any hotter.

What's odd is that the SR2 version of movement didn't work that way. It was noted as being able to cause the target to crash or take damage due to forcing it to perform maneuvers at unsafe speed. This was the version on Predator and Prey, not sure what was in the core SR2 book as I never got that, but the P&P notes said they replaced the core powers if there was conflict.

It's a game balance thing. If Movement imparted kinetic energy as if you were going 6 times faster than you previously were going, you'd have people making hyper-velocity bullets and planes that exploded into flames from air resistance. It's too open to abuse. Is the bad guy getting away in a car? Let him get up to redline speed, cast movement, and watch as he hits mach 1 and slams into a building doing massive damage to everything involved because his reaction time isn't fast enough.

[老子]

Yeah, but you're pissing and moaning that a magical effect, which specifically violates the laws of physics, doesn't follow the laws of physics.

I'm "distressed" because the laws of logic are being raped in the ass, since what is asserted is "the power makes things go faster and the power doesn't make things go faster."

Also to those who invoke relativity: seriously, what? No amount of time dilation in any frame of reference can make the object reach its destination faster without causing it to speed up. 4 possibilities:

Time local to the object slows down: then from the perspective of the object the object reaches its destination quicker. However, from the perspective of everyone else it takes the same amount of time. Hence it doesn't go faster from their perspective, win any races, etc. This is surely not what the power is doing, I assume, since it would be a pointless power.

Time local to the object speeds up: same results except in reverse - subjectively the object takes longer from its perspective. Still makes no difference to outside observers.

Time external to the object slows down: The object in fact reaches its destination faster. Indeed from the perspective of an external observer its speed increases. If it collides with an external object it will affect that object as if it was going much faster. Again, this is not what the power is supposed to do, according to Frank, since this would actually make the speed of the object increase when it comes to collisions, etc.

Time external to the object speeds up: As above but the object moves slower from the perspective of an external observer. Again, not what is supposed to happen.

So which of these effects allegedly makes sense of Frank's explanation?

[老子]

I mean seriously, why are you babbling nonsense when you could say "it reduces the mass of things by 5/6ths."

[Username17]

I mean seriously, why are you babbling nonsense when you could say "it reduces the mass of things by 5/6ths."

Because that would make things have six times as much kinetic energy and turn everything into hyper effective APDS.

If you're going to bitch and moan about logic and physics, try not to be completely full of shit.

-Username17

[Murtak]

So in other words, you don't bother to read, and you are opposed to movement because it feels wrong to you. Got it. Now can you talk about something else, or failing that, come up with a point? Right now you are just yelling "but that makes no sense" repeatedly, while ignoring everyone's arguments. I do not find that to be very convincing.

[老子]

If only that meant shit. But if you model a bullet hitting a body as an elastic collision (for simplicity) then you will see that the actual work exerted, and hence the damage done, by the bullet will be the same in the original situation and when we reduce its mass by 5/6th assuming its momentum is conserved. Edit: *elastic

[Surgo]

If only that meant shit. But if you model a bullet hitting a body as an inelastic collision (for simplicity) then you will see that the actual work exerted, and hence the damage done, by the bullet will be the same in the original situation and when we reduce its mass by 5/6th assuming its momentum is conserved.

Man, you can't pay for entertainment like this.

[老子]

Go on, suck it harder.