The Shadowrun Situation

[Centurion13]

First, it assumes that men and women write or do things differently, which is false.

They do, from the bathroom to killing. Pretending women and men are the same is just as bad as assuming one is lesser than the other. The genders are different.

Neither is 'bad', in a sense which means anything here.

The claim to 'sameness' or equality is political and is a good thing in that it prevents women from getting the short end of the stick more often than they do in public life. Otherwise it is just the same as saying 'all men are created equal' when it is obvious that some of us are smarter, or stronger, and so on.

But to believe this is a literal truth is silly. If you need proof, just look around.

Cent13

[Taharqa]

Can we cut the thread drift bullshit?

[Crissa]

They do, from the bathroom to killing. Pretending women and men are the same is just as bad as assuming one is lesser than the other. The genders are different.

Gender is, however, a social construct. While there seems to be some basal programming to body image, such as transsexuals, humans are capable of entirely artificial conditions like transvestism.

Men and women in our society do things differently, but there is no reason they can't do things the other way. Literally. Women can pee standing if they learn, and men don't have to kill violently; this is entirely cultural.

But Cent13 has the basic gist - it is more a principle. I would call 'men and women are different' as a cultural fallacy, but it's simpler to just say it's false.

-Crissa

[Parthenon]

I have interacted with Frank for about 10 years now.

Time flies.

I know! I just noticed earlier today that 28 Days Later came out eight years ago. That some of the "new" films that seem to have only just gone by that I was thinking about going to see at the cinema came out three or more years back. That none of the kids television shows I watched as a child are still running. That I haven't been a teenager for years.

I feel slightly depressed.

[Jay Levine]

But really, I want to talk about motives and sides for a moment. There are simply put: a lot more than two sides. And a lot more than two goals. Consider the motivation that Jay Levine claims (and which I believe): he wants to be personally financially secure, he wants Shadowrun products to be made at a high level of quality with a reasonable release schedule, he wants to work for and be associated with companies that behave professionally and ethically, and he wants to write Shadowrun material. All perfectly understandable motivations. The way he ranks those goals means that he:

• Will not gamble his savings on trying to start a game company of his own.
• Will not continue to work for IMR or the management of IMR at a new company.
• Will write Shadowrun material at the drop of a hat for a new company with a new management team that promises timely ad well followed contracts.
• May (or may not) purchase more Shadowrun products produced by IMR, depending on how he feels about it at the time.

And you know what? That's a reasonably common position to have amongst the former writers who I respect. And what that means is that if Snadstorm gets the license, Jay Levine will probably do some writing for Sandstorm. But it also means that if Pegasus got the license, that Jay Levine would probably do some writing for Pegasus. And if those Dutch guys got the license? Or Green Ronin? Same deal.

Which means that there are a lot of people who would cheer if David Stansel-Garner got the license who aren't specifically on David Stansel-Garner's side. Their side is "Not IMR, but somebody else who can manage to maintain a release schedule and pay contracts on time." And the thing to understand is, I'm on that side. Not because I would go write for the new company at all (whoever they are, they almost certainly wouldn't even want my input); but because a number of writers whose work I want to read would.

It's beyond simply that I want to read Jay Levine's take on Aztlan/CAS conflicts moving into the latter half of the 2070s (although I do). It's that I don't want anything Jason Hardy has licked entering canon. The plotline to War! is stupid, and I don't want it polluting the storyline. It's like YotC stupid. IMR is actively bad for Shadowrun, and as a Shadowrun loyalist, I don't want them involved.

-Username17

You're very much on the mark there. I suppose it's possible I could write for IMR again if they retained the license, but not IMR as we currently recognize it. It'd need a pretty substantial restructuring and I wouldn't take their word on the restructuring, they'd have to convince me after I watched the production and spoke to freelancers for awhile.

I'm not really an ally of David Stansel-Garner's. Maybe I'm misplacing blame, but when Shadowrun was transitioning from FanPro to CGL, I was told that he was the man that would make sure contracts got out on time. And they didn't. I sent many e-mails to him directly when contracts didn't show up and rarely got replies. On the Manhattan e-book, I sent three separate requests for the contract and then days after I quit the project, he e-mailed me the contract. So yeah, if Sandstorm were to get the license, I'd have the same "prove it to me" attitude I'll have if anyone else gets the license.

As for the future of Shadowrun under IMR, I'm pretty "meh" on the whole thing. I know a good bit about the future plans and if I were still a freelancer, I'd be entirely uninspired.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Can we cut the thread drift bullshit?

I concur with this notion. A discussion on gender roles in a thread that is already cluttered with hyperbole and misinformation will only throw off the signal-to-noise ratio even further.

[TheFlatline]

As for the future of Shadowrun under IMR, I'm pretty "meh" on the whole thing. I know a good bit about the future plans and if I were still a freelancer, I'd be entirely uninspired.

That has to be one of the most depressing statements I've heard concerning shadowrun in a long time.

A close second was a discussion on dumpshock where several posters actually advocated using military grade nerve gas in an ultra-dense urban environment like it was a rational, acceptable tactic. I think dumpshock jumped the shark at that point for me.

[Stahlseele]

It depends on what you want to achieve with that tactic.
If you want everything in there dead, it's perfect.
If you don't want everything in there dead, think again.

[TheFlatline]

It depends on what you want to achieve with that tactic.
If you want everything in there dead, it's perfect.
If you don't want everything in there dead, think again.

No. This was to control a riot. But even if it wasn't, it's still a stupid fucking idea.

My question was "do you really want to be known to corps and governments as 'the guys who nerve gassed a city'?"

They didn't get it through their head that they'd be the most wanted terrorists in the fucking planet.

If you want to do that kind of shit, go download Violence here:

http://www.costik.com/Violence%20RPG1.pdf

and proceed with your genocide fantasy. You wouldn't give a shadowrun team tac nukes as part of their normal runner equipment, nor would you give them nerve gas.

[Stahlseele]

Well, considering that with some simple equipment you can make chlorine gas . .
Also, it might be cynical, but after using the gas, there's no more rioting.
probably for quite some time too . .
Furthermore, with the wonky rules in SR4, when you are KNOWN for being that damn good, commiting such a dumb atrocity may actually be helping in some cases . .

[Username17]

There's always a reason to use a weapon of mass destruction. Heck, in a campaign I ran, the players ended up setting off a tactical nuclear weapon during a hit on the temple palace of Takshak the seven headed Naga Raja of Nag Kampuchea. Yeah, in my own campaign, Nag Kampuchea was destroyed and the Republic of Cambodia took control of everything to the Thai border.

But yeah, that's a big deal. Nerve toxin, bioweapon, or nuclear device attacks are not something you do just because. It really does elevate things to the "OMGWTFBBQ" level.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

It really does elevate things to the "OMGWTFBBQ" level.

-Username17

*snerk* i'm a horrible horrible person, but that sentence in this context cracks me up to no end ^^

[Asbestos Underwear]

The rumor of David Stansel-Garner trying to get Loren to get the fuck out of the company for a $50,000 golden parachute is just that - a rumor. I have heard it from a couple of people as an unconfirmed rumor, but I haven't seen any credible evidence that it had happened. Nor does it make any difference if it did, considering that if anyone made that offer it wasn't accepted.

But the most important reason is that Laughingman "knows" a number of things that Loren believes and appears to know things that only Loren could know. For example, there was the attempt by David Stansel-Garner to buy Loren out of the company back before he knew the extent of the financial straits that IMR was in. That was a private discussion. As far as I know, the only people involved in that discussion were David Stansel-Garner and Loren L. Coleman. For whatever reason, those negotiations collapsed, and whether the pile on the table was fifty thousand or fifty million dollars is something that only those two people could know.

You'd heard of the buyout offer from at least two people. Throw in DSG and LLC themselves and it's pretty clear at least five people knew about the buyout bit of the story before LaughingMan posted. Probably many, many more than five. Your initial comment sure made it sound like $50k was part of the rumor. Even if that wasn't what you mean to convey, it's hardly farfetched to imagine that someone, somewhere in the rumor chain would tack an amount on. Doesn't seem dispositive as to the source of the poster's information or his identity.

[Red_Rob]

Heck, in a campaign I ran, the players ended up setting off a tactical nuclear weapon during a hit on the temple palace of Takshak the seven headed Naga Raja of Nag Kampuchea.

Off topic, and I dont want to derail the thread, but i have to ask... Did they find the Nuke there or take it with them "just in case"? Because if my players are any indication they would take one with them if they had the option.

[Quantumboost]

As far as I know, the only people involved in that discussion were David Stansel-Garner and Loren L. Coleman. For whatever reason, those negotiations collapsed, and whether the pile on the table was fifty thousand or fifty million dollars is something that only those two people could know.

You earlier claimed that you've not received information directly from DSG, yet you'd previously heard of the buyout offer. This means you heard it from a someone other than DSG (and certainly not from LLC). Hence, at least four people knew about the buyout bit of the story before LaughingMan posted. Probably many more.

Reduced Frankquote for emphasis.

It's entirely plausible that the fact that meeting took place could be well known without the monetary amount being available to anyone but those two.

[Orca]

I'd be interested to know just what Loren wanted to do with Harlequin that was so annoying, or is that covered by an NDA?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Can we cut the thread drift bullshit?

I concur with this notion. A discussion on gender roles in a thread that is already cluttered with hyperbole and misinformation will only throw off the signal-to-noise ratio even further.

[Username17]

It's entirely plausible that the fact that meeting took place could be well known without the monetary amount being available to anyone but those two.

This. Although come to think of it, Heather Coleman would presumably know as well. But yeah, anyone claiming information on exactly what the terms or sticking points of the negotiations were is claiming information that was available to a very limited group.

I can speculate that perhaps David Stansel-Garner would have wanted access to the financial records before the sales were finalized on the grounds that I damn well would - and I know that Coleman did not have that information to give. So I know that in hindsight such negotiations were essentially doomed from the beginning. But no one who wasn't there knows exactly what anyone said.

I'd be interested to know just what Loren wanted to do with Harlequin that was so annoying, or is that covered by an NDA?

I don't have an NDA. Whether I discuss something or not is entirely at my discretion. So when I "spoil" something that is shitty, I am dong so precisely because I am attempting to make sure it doesn't happen. I would really like the War! and Spy Games plotlines to not go forward because they are lame.

But right now, we're talking about a Harlequin centered plot called "The Corruption Master" which was... really bad. Like, worse than making a Spy Games book about the Ute performing political machinations about the fate of Denver without doing anything about Ghost Walker (which was yes, Jason Hardy's actual plan for that book). This plotline was a shallow retread of the Thultanthar plotline from the Forgotten Realms.

How close a copypasta? Well, imagine for the moment that a flying city from a previous age of magic returns from an alternate dimension having escaped the cataclysm that had destroyed the old empire, but the residents are corrupted by their sojourn in the shadow realm and now they are all shadowy and evil - but still very magically powerful. Thy have spent over a thousand years in a shadow realm fighting shadowy horrors and they have become tainted by the process and have now returned to world to reconquer it with their mighty ancient sorceries. But first they are going to send secret agents around to gather artifacts of the ancient magical empire. That close a copypasta. Basically you just substitute the word "Thera" for "Netheril" and you're good.

Off topic, and I dont want to derail the thread, but i have to ask... Did they find the Nuke there or take it with them "just in case"? Because if my players are any indication they would take one with them if they had the option.

They brought the nuke with them, having stolen it from the Belorussians in a previous adventure.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

Can we cut the thread drift bullshit?

I concur with this notion. A discussion on gender roles in a thread that is already cluttered with hyperbole and misinformation will only throw off the signal-to-noise ratio even further.

*snips pic*

[Fuchs]

But right now, we're talking about a Harlequin centered plot called "The Corruption Master" which was... really bad. Like, worse than making a Spy Games book about the Ute performing political machinations about the fate of Denver without doing anything about Ghost Walker (which was yes, Jason Hardy's actual plan for that book). This plotline was a shallow retread of the Thultanthar plotline from the Forgotten Realms.

How close a copypasta? Well, imagine for the moment that a flying city from a previous age of magic returns from an alternate dimension having escaped the cataclysm that had destroyed the old empire, but the residents are corrupted by their sojourn in the shadow realm and now they are all shadowy and evil - but still very magically powerful. Thy have spent over a thousand years in a shadow realm fighting shadowy horrors and they have become tainted by the process and have now returned to world to reconquer it with their mighty ancient sorceries. But first they are going to send secret agents around to gather artifacts of the ancient magical empire. That close a copypasta. Basically you just substitute the word "Thera" for "Netheril" and you're good.

That alone would be cause enough to pray people who plan things like this are not let near Shadowrun anymore.

[Stahlseele]

Well, lookie here . .

"name='JM Hardy' date='Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM' post='936435'"
Let me just jump in here to say that the speculation about Spy Games is off base. Frank heard about one possible plot element, and somehow decided that was the only plot element the book was going to have. That was not the case.

Jason H.

EDIT: Oh, and I should add that I'm not commenting on his "Corruption Master" stuff because I've never seen or heard about such a proposal. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it's never made its way to me.

edit: edited broken quote tags <.<

[Username17]

Yeah... I've seen some of Jason's other big ideas for War! and Spy Games. Let's just say... not super great. There were a wide variety of terrible ideas on the table from various sources: like having Sirrurg (the rabid environmentalist green dragon from Amazonia) drop a dirty bomb on Los Angeles for no reason. Those were eyerollers too. But yes, Jason went on and on about how cool it would be to have Aztlan bribing Ute members to push the PCC to push for Aztlan's reinstatement into Denver - basically completely neglecting the fact that Aztlan is not currently kicked out of Denver because of anything the PCC did or did not do - but because there is a fucking great dragon who doesn't listen to anything humans have to say about anything occupying their slice.

As to the thing about The Corruption? I actually find the concept that Jason is still out of the loop on that puzzling and terrifying. Assuming he isn't flatly lying, it basically means that he was put in charge of "developing" the Artifacts saga and the followup Harlequin's Gambit without actually reading the plot arc. I assume that is part and parcel of the kind of willful ignorance required to allow Jason to work that closely with Randall and Loren without suspecting that there is fraud going on.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

Oh, seems as if they have new Information about the License.
But i guess we will have to wait for a Press-Release or something . .

[Wesley Street]

I actually find the concept that Jason is still out of the loop on that puzzling and terrifying. Assuming he isn't flatly lying, it basically means that he was put in charge of "developing" the Artifacts saga and the followup Harlequin's Gambit without actually reading the plot arc.

From what I've seen in my corner of the universe, I don't think he's lying. He's either a) out of the loop and/or b) doesn't care about the loop.

Hey, it's June 1! Does CGL still have the SR license?

Removed extra quote tag --Z

[Stahlseele]

Seems like it.
In the Dev-Chat, Hardy said it's not gone untill about mid june, if it's gone at all . .