The Shadowrun Situation

[Blasted]

If you're talking about StCptMara (Cardul on Dumpshock), he has a history of saying stuff like that. I seem to remember I once wrangled the name of his FLGS out of him, and CGL had Alliance call that FLGS, and the FLGS basically said "That dude will listen to what we say and then just pretend we said something else."

He doesn't know a thing but will happily take his cobbled-together knowledge of the game industry, make shit up, and then state it as if it were fact.

lol, duly noted.

[martian_bob]

Clutch is trying to say that since AH has given away his work, that a publisher wouldn't buy it from him in the future. I think this depends a lot on the publisher and on what they believe in ... with Eclipse Phase, we found that Creative Commons-licensing the entire book and letting it be freely distributed _helped_ our print and PDF sales. Not everyone believes that simply because something can be obtained for free (legally), that it has no value to them, to other people, or in other formats.

I'm with you on this one, Creative Commons and other free culture licenses have more than proved that.

[Fuchs]

Some of Dumpshock's neutality reminds me of the "League of nations" imposing sanctions on both Ethopia and Italy when Italy attacked Ethopia.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

I really like this thread. I do not want to lock it.

Keep the discussion about the Shadowrun Situation and I won't have to.

[/TGFBS]

[Username17]

Unfortunately, I don't think SR can go creative commons because of the multilayer license ownership deal. If SR was still wholly owned by FASA, creative commons would be a possibility and a good one. When they shut Napster down, sales dropped. Free samples drive sales of good product.

As for AH releasing stuff for free, I think it mostly comes down to him believing that Jason Hardy will go through with his threat to release e-books with the rewrites of his material.

Interesting note: even though the e-book spam plan was exactly what I would do if I was looting the company while crashing it into the ground (since the e-book sales are almost certainly less than printing or even production costs, and don't pay until the end of the month), it turns out that some of the people doing it seriously believe that they are going to use the money to print books somehow. That was like looking into the mouth of madness. There were seriously people following the exact script you'd follow to loot the company and burn it to the ground on accident. Although I don't know the motives of the higher ups - it's sill possible that Randall and Loren approved that plan because they are in Viking mode.

-Username17

[adamjury]

Unfortunately, I don't think SR can go creative commons because of the multilayer license ownership deal. If SR was still wholly owned by FASA, creative commons would be a possibility and a good one.

Oh, agreed. I wasn't saying that SR could or should go CC, but that "being available for free" doesn't make something into something that people are unwilling to pay for. A great number of people understand that most creators need to be compensated in order for them to produced creative work on a sustained basis.

[LanceAvalon]

Is it just me or over the last several years have CEOs and there ilk, contracted some form of viral God-complex that makes them think they can do crazy shit like this and get away with it?

So which books are 'tainted goods'? I suppose that word works as well as any.

[Username17]

Oh, and to put a fine point on what we are talking about of Ancient History's free releases:

Sixth World Almanac drafts.
Corp Guide drafts.
Piece from Attitude

Is it just me or over the last several years have CEOs and there ilk, contracted some form of viral God-complex that makes them think they can do crazy shit like this and get away with it?

To an extent, that's all the time. Has been since the 80s, maybe before. I literally don't remember a time when corporate leadership didn't expect it to be a moral duty to privatize all gains and socialize all losses.

So which books are 'tainted goods'? I suppose that word works as well as any.

Depends on what you mean by "tainted." Certainly I think the most probable result of you buying any e-book is that Loren Coleman will put the money in his pants and get a one way ticket to Paraguay with it. The ethics on buying print material are much fuzzier - IMR hasn't printed anything for months, and doesn't look ready to start any time soon. So to an extent, most print books you buy are ones that were already paid for by the company you are buying from - maybe more than a year ago in some cases.

Since there pretty much aren't hard copy books to replace ones that are purchased from shelves (with a few exceptions like the printing of Runner's Companion), you purchasing a book from a FLGS isn't really helping Loren Coleman so much as helping the store and encouraging the owner to feel less bad about having Shadowrun materials on their shelves at all. I would encourage someone to buy a copy of Arsenal or Augmentation if they saw them on the shelves (even though they have ugly covers).

But yeah, it's an ethical mine field. Personally, I'm not buying any IMR books. But I actually made that decision because Unwired and Runner's Companion were low quality and I didn't want to encourage that sort of thing. I've heard better things about Vice, but not until the whole situation came to a head.

-Username17

[LanceAvalon]

I should ask which print material was put together after they 'purged the unbelievers'?

From the sound of it, Companion and Unwired where printed after the shit hit the fan, but were there any others?

I ask because when everything is settled down and Coleman is having fun in a FED prison the stuff these guy are throwing out there as fast as they could in the hopes of just a little more money to cover there ass will more then likely be retaconed by whatever company picks Shadowrun up.

Maybe I'm wrong about that I don't know hopefully that cleared up what I was asking.

[Username17]

I should ask which print material was put together after they 'purged the unbelievers'?

From the sound of it, Companion and Unwired where printed after the shit hit the fan, but were there any others?

I ask because when everything is settled down and Coleman is having fun in a FED prison the stuff these guy are throwing out there as fast as they could in the hopes of just a little more money to cover there ass will more then likely be retaconed by whatever company picks Shadowrun up.

Maybe I'm wrong about that I don't know hopefully that cleared up what I was asking.

Ah. Well, absolutely nothing has been printed that was written by people brought in since the mass exodus. Nothing has been printed at all.

Unwired and Runner's Companion are dreadful books, but they are not terrible because there aren't people writing on them that have shown themselves capable of doing good work - they are bad because of managerial failure. Sure, I've gotten into it a few times with Aaron Pavao about hit inability to write decent mechanics, but that's not the problem. The problem is that while those books languished in development hell, they weren't put through any destructive testing.

Ancient History has plenty of good writing to his credit, but his HMHVV section in Runner's Companion is unplayable garbage that needs a complete reworking from the ground up. And people would know that if it had been tested or scrutinized in any way. Instead, it was kept in a "to do" box for the better part of a year and then rushed out the door. And it's not even the worst offender: the player character Spirit and Sprite rules aren't just mechanical failures but conceptual ones as well - no one should have OKed such a submission in the first place.*

You only need a few months of actual work to get a book up to snuff and out the door. But for the last two years or so, IMR has not been doing that. Even before, they were doing their work intermittently. Shadowrun's whole development cycle is three years behind schedule. 6th World Almanac and Corp Guide were considered ready for layout by several dev hats ago in April of 2009. Those books have actually had birthdays between typesetting and publication.

I expect better things from the recent "story" books like Vice, because the writers can do fluff text more easily in a "working alone" situation where there is a vast void every time they ask management for anything and every time sections get sent off for developer passes.

-Username17

*: Before anyone jumps on my ass for saying that Spirits and Computer Programs cannot be PCs in Shadowrun, let me assure you that I am not saying that. What I am saying is that sprites and spirits have severe difficulties being integrated into a party of physical mortals, and it is those issues, rather than raw point costs, that need to be addressed before they could be considered playable. As such, the nonsense points costs of free spirit characters are actually very low on the list of why that entry is bad.

[adamjury]

6th World Almanac and Corp Guide were considered ready for layout by several dev hats ago in April of 2009.

Sixth World Almanac wasn't. April 2009 was around when Peter was replaced by John/Jennifer/myself, and finishing it was a lower priority than other stuff before it on the schedule, and after John finished other stuff he started working on Almanac, and then HE left, and Jason took over Almanac once he was hired at Gen Con.

[Username17]

6th World Almanac and Corp Guide were considered ready for layout by several dev hats ago in April of 2009.

Sixth World Almanac wasn't. April 2009 was around when Peter was replaced by John/Jennifer/myself, and finishing it was a lower priority than other stuff before it on the schedule, and after John finished other stuff he started working on Almanac, and then HE left, and Jason took over Almanac once he was hired at Gen Con.

My mistake.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

By the way, am i the only one who thinks Hardy is making a big mistake by going up against one of the communities favourite (ex)writers?

[Fuchs]

I think neither CGL's fervent supporters nor the "I think both sides are wrong since leaking info is as bad as co-mingling money and not paying authors" "neutral" crowd on DS care much about AH anymore.

[Username17]

By the way, am i the only one who thinks Hardy is making a big mistake by going up against one of the communities favourite (ex)writers?

Well... the way he has gone about it, I can't really see any new company wanting to take him on. But considering his closeness with the Loren/Radall faction and his low output, that was basically already true.

Yes, kicking Ancient History out of the freelancer pool was a mistake, because until that point AH said he was honor bound to keep his stuff in the pool because he had already held out and been paid back in January or February. But Jason Hardy and Robert Derie have been butting heads for a long time - Derie has said publicly that he feels that people who have been promoted up through the Battletech side (as Jason was) should not be put in over Shadowrun people (as Jason was). That was a pretty clear dig at Jason long before things went to all out war. Robert Derie does not like or respect Jason Hardy as a person or as a producer of creative work, and has not shied from letting people know that. Conflict between them was basically inevitable.

Part of that of course is that the situation with novels is basically designed to make Shadowrun authors resentful. IMR will print a novel for their Battletech line by someone who has no appreciable writing experience based on Randall Bills liking a writing sample (and apparently: their faith). But IMR will not consider novel publication - even as a section in an anthology - for prospective Shadowrun authors who don't have novels under their belt - even if they have a novel's length worth of actual Shadowrun text printed. Thus it was that Jason Hardy got to do a couple of Battletech books, and then do a Shadowrun book and then become Shadowrun linedev, but the actual regular SR writing team was not allowed to even submit stories for Spells and Chrome. If you wanted to anger your creative staff any more than that, you'd have to stop paying them.

So a battle between AH and Jason was not only inevitable, it was ongoing. When Jason gave him the boot, he probably thought he was reducing the leverage AH had. Which was somewhat foolish actually. AH had pretty much exactly the same level of leverage before and after. There were just things he wasn't willing to do while he still had something to lose.

Since then? Well, Jason has proved time and time again that he is not good at picking battles. Starting shit in public with AH over whether or not he had benefited from proofreading from IMR staff on the materials he was releasing for free was just dumb. It would have been a mistake even if AH had, but since he hadn't it makes Jason look both petty and incompetent. But I do understand why Jason is pissed off.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

I am really wondering whether proofreading and/or editing does give anyone a say about how the proofread text is used afterwards. Was there anything covering this in the contracts for freelancers at CGL?

[Username17]

I am really wondering whether proofreading and/or editing does give anyone a say about how the proofread text is used afterwards. Was there anything covering this in the contracts for freelancers at CGL?

No. It's not mentioned at all.

The assumption in the contract is that you will give them the work, they will publish it, and then they will give you money. When they sit on it for 14 months and then basically tell you that they aren't going to pay you any money, you're so far outside the expectations of the contract that you are floating in formless void.

The work, and I do mean all of it at that point, is basically owned by no one. It's based on derivative work (the entire body of Shadowrun that is owned by Topps), the author hasn't sold it to the publisher yet (IMR in this case), and it's all a giant clusterfuck.

The point though is that the proofreaders and typesetters aren't creating a work, they are providing a service. Their job is like the one I used to do testing video games. They do a certain amount of work, and then the company that contracted them is supposed to pay them at some point in the future. In my case it was at the end of the month. In their case it's some incredibly sketchy future date based on Sagittarius and the whim of Loren Coleman. Truly, I pity them. But in neither case does the dispensation of the paycheck or lack thereof for that contract work have any bearing on the writes for the creative work being proofread/tested. If my paycheck got held up because of some bureaucratic snafu, I couldn't hold up an expansion for Heroes of Might and Magic III, nor could I demand that people put bugs back in that I had found.

If you collaborate in writing, then yes, you own part of the writing. Editors do not own shit. And if the writer wants to release the work for free and the contracts are all broken, that's tough crap.

-Username17

[kzt]

*: Before anyone jumps on my ass for saying that Spirits and Computer Programs cannot be PCs in Shadowrun, let me assure you that I am not saying that. What I am saying is that sprites and spirits have severe difficulties being integrated into a party of physical mortals, and it is those issues, rather than raw point costs, that need to be addressed before they could be considered playable. As such, the nonsense points costs of free spirit characters are actually very low on the list of why that entry is bad.

Free spirits, since they have materialization, seem a LOT easier to work with in a game then AIs. But they have all the scaling issues of a regular SR4 spirit (and then some) and the rules provided are simply terrible, even ignoring costs.

[Stahlseele]

Well, what with AR beinbg all around and holographic emmiters available for cheap, even if they can't touch stuff without first inhabitting a drone they can interact with the rest of the world. .

[knasser]

By the way, am i the only one who thinks Hardy is making a big mistake by going up against one of the communities favourite (ex)writers?

Well he's not doing himself any favours with people like me, who know and respect AH's contributions to Shadowrun. And I doubt he's doing himself much of a favour with most of the DS regulars. The people who keep attacking AH in the speculation thread are mostly low-participation types who are often recent joiners, I suspect imports from the BT side of things as I understand people are not allowed to discuss the situation there. I was attacked there for "not caring about BattleTech" for example.

However, whilst those in the know are probably on AH's side or at the very least warmly sympathetic, I don't know how much influence threads on DS have in the grand scheme of things. I think the real big mistake on JH's side is a much simpler one: Losing AH's work. AH is good, he's (very) productive and he knows the setting like a dog knows its testicles. Thinking that you can lose that and simply get other people (talented or not) to blast through his work and re-write it, that's stupid.

K.

[Clutch9800]

However, whilst those in the know are probably on AH's side or at the very least warmly sympathetic, I don't know how much influence threads on DS have in the grand scheme of things. I think the real big mistake on JH's side is a much simpler one: Losing AH's work. AH is good, he's (very) productive and he knows the setting like a dog knows its testicles. Thinking that you can lose that and simply get other people (talented or not) to blast through his work and re-write it, that's stupid.

I can certainly get onboard with this sentiment. From what I've seen and read, Bobby seems to be a class act.

Clutch

[Quantumboost]

Free spirits, since they have materialization, seem a LOT easier to work with in a game then AIs. But they have all the scaling issues of a regular SR4 spirit (and then some) and the rules provided are simply terrible, even ignoring costs.

Not so much. Since they don't have actual neurons, Materialization and Possession spirits can't interact with an entire subsystem that it's expected you can interact with - they can't use AR or VR at all, are immune to brainhacks, etc. Those issues would still require working out.

Inhabitation spirits (non-True Form) are easier to work with, because they interact with the physical and virtual worlds exactly like metahumans do. Anything you can plausibly do to or as a mundane metahuman, you can plausibly do to or as a metahuman-inhabiting spirit in the same way.

[kzt]

They can't use VR, but if they can see, which I'm assuming since that's a major issue that any rational game should make abundantly clear if it isn't true, they can use AR.

If they only have astral vision that means they can't see through windows while materialized, read, etc, so it's a huge issue in how a GM should play spirits.

[Quantumboost]

They can't use VR, but if they can see, which I'm assuming since that's a major issue that any rational game should make abundantly clear if it isn't true, they can use AR.

Ah. Right. Display glasses or the like. They *do* need to essentially use retro equipment (i.e. keyboard and display lenses), since they can't give out direct commands via their nervous system; in any case, the lack of VR and immunity to digital attack is pretty big.

[Stahlseele]

However, whilst those in the know are probably on AH's side or at the very least warmly sympathetic, I don't know how much influence threads on DS have in the grand scheme of things. I think the real big mistake on JH's side is a much simpler one: Losing AH's work. AH is good, he's (very) productive and he knows the setting like a dog knows its testicles. Thinking that you can lose that and simply get other people (talented or not) to blast through his work and re-write it, that's stupid.

I can certainly get onboard with this sentiment. From what I've seen and read, Bobby seems to be a class act.

Clutch

Bobby BREATHES the Universe i think . .
Ask him anything about the fluff, chances are about 90% he can tell you not only the answer that is and/or should be used to answer the question, but also WHY that particular answer is/should be used too . .