The Shadowrun Situation

[Crissa]

The rules aren't that complex.

It's the long, long list of technologies and doodads that might be on a mech that are complex.

-Crissa

[TheFlatline]

I've gotten two people into Battletech in the last 3 years, It's not that hard to get them into the board game, but to actually get them to care about the fluff is a little harder. If I ran a sample game and sent someone home with one of the mech design programs they seemed able to come back next week with there own custom mechs ready to play. The old Battle Value system worked, but it was far from perfect, recently they've updated that to BV2.0 which seems like it's harder to abuse.

Oh I got into the game quickly. The problems Battletech have though is legion. It's a game line that seems to *not* want new players, but rather wants to retain old players and to hell with new blood. It's an incestuous inward spiral.

I got another problem for you. Want figs? Catalyst has nothing to do with them. Go to Ironwind Metals (or whoever it is) or start browsing the internet. Hell I can't even think of a hobby store I've ever been in that had BT figs. Go over to BattleCorps, and they have ONE mech fig available- a discontinued mech from 2005.

CGL has made it as difficult as possible to actually get *into* BattleTech, and that's even in spite of Randall Bills humping it.

[kzt]

The rules for Battletech are beginning to sounds like the rules from Advanced Squad Leader.

At least in ASL you were not running around in a huge hot metal box that stands high above the ground and has insane ground pressure. Gee, can't think of any way to deal with something like that....

[Centurion13]

Oh I got into the game quickly. The problems Battletech have though is legion. It's a game line that seems to *not* want new players, but rather wants to retain old players and to hell with new blood. It's an incestuous inward spiral.

I got another problem for you. Want figs? Catalyst has nothing to do with them. Go to Ironwind Metals (or whoever it is) or start browsing the internet. Hell I can't even think of a hobby store I've ever been in that had BT figs. Go over to BattleCorps, and they have ONE mech fig available- a discontinued mech from 2005.

CGL has made it as difficult as possible to actually get *into* BattleTech, and that's even in spite of Randall Bills humping it.

That is the feeling I have gotten every time I visit the major BT forums. You know, 'no noobs need apply, comment or hold an opinion markedly different from that of the approved masses'.

Playing the actual game, it would help if the guy giving the demos had some skill managing people - and recognizing his own limits. I like the game, but it doesn't lend itself to large-scale action unless everyone is playing like a pro. That seldom happens with new guys in the mix, and so the experience isn't what it could be for young and old alike.

I have always view the rules with a grain of salt. Take what you need to play what you're playing this week, this month, etc. And don't worry about the rest.

As for the fluff and the accumulated canon of three decades? Holy Christ, there is so much of it that when I went to work on a fan-written Technical Readout, I was blindsided about every other week. I lucked out - I acquired a really good co-author who happened to know our chosen era like the back of his hand. But the sheer amount of detail is overwhelming. I learned to screen out everything but what I needed to get the current written piece finished - my daily bread, if you will.

To have to take all that in at a glance is unnecessary to be a player in any era, but I assure you the attempt is intimidating as hell. It requires a mental investment in BT that is similar to the monetary investment demanded of a WH:40K player.

And the miniatures... oy. The company insists on calling their baby a 'boardgame' despite sounding desperately stupid to nearly anyone who has actually played the game. Not sure why this is so important to them, but getting miniatures isn't too hard for anyone willing to make the aforementioned mental investment in the game. They're just uneven in quality and getting pricier by the day.

Cent13

[Juton]

I used to play Battletech every week for a few years up until last summer when my group split up. It is fun, there is enough to keep people coming back for years on end. So while it does have its problems I am just stumped when I hear people say it's too complicated or it's hard to get into. :shrug:

I'm an old hand though, maybe that helps makes things smooth sailing because I've memorized most of the charts and the rules, and having someone like that at a game makes things go so much quicker and smoother. Battletech got a big infusion of players in the early nineties due to a trio of computer games, I think they really need to do something like that to help ease people into the universe.

[Centurion13]

I used to play Battletech every week for a few years up until last summer when my group split up. It is fun, there is enough to keep people coming back for years on end. So while it does have its problems I am just stumped when I hear people say it's too complicated or it's hard to get into. :shrug:

I'm an old hand though, maybe that helps makes things smooth sailing because I've memorized most of the charts and the rules, and having someone like that at a game makes things go so much quicker and smoother. Battletech got a big infusion of players in the early nineties due to a trio of computer games, I think they really need to do something like that to help ease people into the universe.

Overall, I agree. Despite the issues I mentioned, it can be toned down and presented as an attractive pastime.

Cent13

[martian_bob]

Over on Dumpshock, AH is claiming that Mitsuhama profile in the Corp guide is copied from his draft. Can't say I'm surprised.

[Blasted]

I'm an old hand though, maybe that helps makes things smooth sailing because I've memorized most of the charts and the rules, and having someone like that at a game makes things go so much quicker and smoother. Battletech got a big infusion of players in the early nineties due to a trio of computer games, I think they really need to do something like that to help ease people into the universe.

I think that this is key. Who you play with is more important in this game than most, if someone gets bogged down by exactly what move, facing and torso twist they should have, then by the time they've finished moving a lance everyone is ready for a break.
The insanity of weapons like the LB20X (what! I've got to make 20 rolls to hit? I've got 6 other weapons on this 'mech alone!). Makes me wonder about what the designer's intentions are.
It's a reasonable system without all the complexities, I think. And the book keeping. Tracking each round for each weapon and heat for every round is tedious. It's like they designed it as a computer game first.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Over on Dumpshock, AH is claiming that Mitsuhama profile in the Corp guide is copied from his draft. Can't say I'm surprised.

After stealing almost a million dollars, I imagine that plagiarism comes pretty easily.

[Blasted]

If it is a word for word copy, then AH could have put the screws in by having it recalled.
But his wording indicates that it's a sloppy job - While the material it's been derived from might be obvious and the work sub par, I doubt CGL would be stupid enough to put themselves in the position of having to recall a printed book.

[Doom]

Was I really the only one that played the WizKids game? I still have a good two boxes of their crud. It's playable-ish, if you drop the insane artillery rules and bad transportation rules.

And force folks to actually use the horribly ineffectual mechs.

[Blasted]

Plenty of people played it, indeed I believe it was the biggest draw to 'classic' battletech. The click system worked ok, balancing would have been nice.

[Asbestos Underwear]

"I'm Bobby and I'm acting out because I shat in someone else's sandbox and it didn't make the stink I thought it would." Unless huge swaths of his prose were lifted wholesale, he's got no leg to stand on. Copyright's about protecting actual expression, not ideas. That people working in the same universe have the same ideas, or even rip them off blatantly, is a nonissue unless they're actually plagiarizing his drafts, which he's not alleged. He's just bitching about a name. And a slogan. If he was ripped off wholesale, you'd be seeing side by side comparisons of his draft text and the final release.

Frank's a lovable douche. Happy warrior. He's waving an axe around, but with delight and in a way that's at least fun to read. AH, in contrast, comes across as a bitter hack who's pissed that he walked out with his ball, only to urn around and see the game continue without him. That's what's really sad about this whole situation. Lots of seemingly decent people making grade A asses of themselves.

[A Man In Black]

Was I really the only one that played the WizKids game? I still have a good two boxes of their crud. It's playable-ish, if you drop the insane artillery rules and bad transportation rules.

And force folks to actually use the horribly ineffectual mechs.

There was a second edition of it that buffed the hell out of mechs.

[martian_bob]

"I'm Bobby and I'm acting out because I shat in someone else's sandbox and it didn't make the stink I thought it would." Unless huge swaths of his prose were lifted wholesale, he's got no leg to stand on. Copyright's about protecting actual expression, not ideas.

Wow, that's awful defensive. I don't think anyone's yet accused anyone of violating someone else's copyright on the material.

That people working in the same universe have the same ideas, or even rip them off blatantly, is a nonissue unless they're actually plagiarizing his drafts, which he's not alleged.

A nonissue? Really? I'll grant that it's probably not a legal issue, and that no one is likely to be sued, but it's a douche move. It speaks to Catalyst's panic mode, "slap shit together to get money flowing in the door" mentality that they didn't restart from scratch - assuming, of course, that they didn't.

I'd like to point out your defensiveness again about the legal stuff here - you've thought that part of your argument through quite well, haven't you?

He's just bitching about a name. And a slogan. If he was ripped off wholesale, you'd be seeing side by side comparisons of his draft text and the final release.

As someone with a background in corpus linguistics, I'd actually be interested in looking in to this sort of thing, if it didn't involve me paying for a copy of the Corp Guide (see what I did there, about not stealing your RPG's PDFs?).

Frank's a lovable douche. Happy warrior. He's waving an axe around, but with delight and in a way that's at least fun to read. AH, in contrast, comes across as a bitter hack who's pissed that he walked out with his ball, only to urn around and see the game continue without him. That's what's really sad about this whole situation. Lots of seemingly decent people making grade A asses of themselves.

If we assume, for a brief moment, that AH honestly thinks he's been ripped off, then I think it makes absolute sense for him to be pissed about this. And as far as people making asses of themselves... I mean, have you read some of your posts?

[Asbestos Underwear]

If we assume, for a brief moment, that AH honestly thinks he's been ripped off, then I think it makes absolute sense for him to be pissed about this. And as far as people making asses of themselves... I mean, have you read some of your posts?

Uh. I'm a blatant troll. I don't even believe half the things I say and contradict myself constantly. But thanks for checking up on me.

[martian_bob]

If we assume, for a brief moment, that AH honestly thinks he's been ripped off, then I think it makes absolute sense for him to be pissed about this. And as far as people making asses of themselves... I mean, have you read some of your posts?

Uh. I'm a blatant troll. I don't even believe half the things I say and contradict myself constantly. But thanks for checking up on me.

You're quite welcome.

[Asbestos Underwear]

Wow, that's awful defensive. I don't think anyone's yet accused anyone of violating someone else's copyright on the material.

A dick in a box is still a dick. He wants people to think there are violations, but doesn't have the balls to say so. It's weak sauce.

A nonissue? Really? I'll grant that it's probably not a legal issue, and that no one is likely to be sued, but it's a douche move. It speaks to Catalyst's panic mode, "slap shit together to get money flowing in the door" mentality that they didn't restart from scratch - assuming, of course, that they didn't.

They probably didn't. AH just isn't in a position to bitch about it. He left because he felt they were unethical and he's somehow surprised that they did shady shit to get eBooks out the door and cash in hand? Uh, yeah.

If we assume, for a brief moment, that AH honestly thinks he's been ripped off, then I think it makes absolute sense for him to be pissed about this. And as far as people making asses of themselves... I mean, have you read some of your posts?

To be clear, I'm trying to be an ass. Why? Because being ridiculous is the best way to get interesting posts from Frank. Stalked DSG's dad ffs? That's entertainment gold! Didn't talk to DSG, willing to swear it in court? Probably the clearest source statement we've seen. Question my methods, but my questions are getting answers.

[Username17]

Robert Derie has said that he doesn't have the latest copies of his own work while Jason Hardy does (since the drafts were on Basecamp, and AH was kicked off). I'm not sure he can do a side to side text comparison, and I know I don't know how much text lifting is allowed copyright wise. I doubt he does. I don't have a copy of the new Corp Guide, and probably won't get one, so I can't be super helpful here.

However, this does mean that Jason Hardy is a liar, and so is Randall Bills. Since they both laid claim to the idea that they did not use Mr. Derie's drafts as templates to write the new drafts, and if they happen to use the same random Nippon names, then they obviously did. But of course, that isn't really news.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

I used to play Battletech every week for a few years up until last summer when my group split up. It is fun, there is enough to keep people coming back for years on end. So while it does have its problems I am just stumped when I hear people say it's too complicated or it's hard to get into. :shrug:

I'm an old hand though, maybe that helps makes things smooth sailing because I've memorized most of the charts and the rules, and having someone like that at a game makes things go so much quicker and smoother. Battletech got a big infusion of players in the early nineties due to a trio of computer games, I think they really need to do something like that to help ease people into the universe.

The problem is that CGL can't touch any kind of computer or console game with the BT stick. Same with Shadowrun. Hell nobody who owns the license can unless they go make a deal with Microsoft.

Also, the rules themselves aren't difficult to figure out, but you want to talk about decision paralysis... Christ...

[Crissa]

Looking someone up in the phone book defined as stalking is new to me.

I know most phones in California are unregistered, true, but that doesn't mean we don't know what phone books are.

-Crissa

[TheFlatline]

Looking someone up in the phone book defined as stalking is new to me.

I know most phones in California are unregistered, true, but that doesn't mean we don't know what phone books are.

-Crissa

You know, it just occurred to me. You're in Santa Cruz, and I'm in the LA area.

I'm so gonna stalk you...

First I have to find a copy of the Santa Cruz phonebook... then you'll be mine all mine!!! Hahahaha!

(God I hope you're getting the sarcasm I'm loading this post up with)

[Wageslave]

The problem is that CGL can't touch any kind of computer or console game with the BT stick. Same with Shadowrun. Hell nobody who owns the license can unless they go make a deal with Microsoft.

Also, the rules themselves aren't difficult to figure out, but you want to talk about decision paralysis... Christ...

I would like to point to this http://www.smithandtinker.com/news/smit ... sa-ips.php from back in '07. Unfortunately nothing has become of any of those IP's in 3 years.....

[spasheridan]

if a phone book search is stalking, what's a google search of someone?

[Blasted]

I would like to point to this http://www.smithandtinker.com/news/smit ... sa-ips.php from back in '07. Unfortunately nothing has become of any of those IP's in 3 years.....

Except for announcing the battletech 3015 game and releasing intro from that game.