The Shadowrun Situation

[TheFlatline]

OK, lets look at the evidence. You registered for this forum on May 17th, and have only ever posted in this thread. All of the statements you have made in this thread have been attempts to derail the discussion by nitpicking other's arguments, or encouraging debates that deflect attention from CGL's woes. You regularly ignore evidence that is contrary to your claims, and have at every opportunity been an apologist for CGL, even in the face of official court records showing your argument points to be false. This is classic shill behavior.

There is no point in me holding a reasonable discussion with you, as conversation with you is not actually a discussion. Instead you will go to any lengths necessary to protect CGLs interests, no matter what the truth is. Your hypocritical piety is amusing.

Bonus points. Right around the same time he showed up here, he showed up at dumpshock and did the same thing.

He actually criticized AH for releasing his documents for free.

He's either a shill, a troll, or beyond help, because as Ron White says... You can't fix stupid.

[Fuchs]

Yeah. Ignoring seems best.

[Username17]

That's of course the CGL POV.

Oh, Fuchs, you silly fool. You see scary beasts of bias lurking in every shadow. There's no CGL bias in noting that AH is so full of hate and rage towards JMH that he's making a fucking fool of himself. Now that the actual author has called BS on the claims, he's desperately trying to blameshift. It's like watching a child trying to put toothpaste back in a tube.

What's the BS claims?

Randall Bills and Jason Hardy publicly stated that the AH's drafts were not going to be used as a template for the chapters in Corp Guide. However, side by side comparison of the two versions of Mitsuhama's corporate summary shows that they very clearly were.

Now, Brandie Tahlvin lays claim to the idea that she didn't copy anything. That could be true. She wrote a draft, and there's no guaranty that she even wrote a corporate summary. Or she could have written one that was stylistically different from the others in the book and thus had parts of her draft replaced by text from elsewhere (elsewhere apparently being "Bobby's Draft" in this case). Ultimately the responsibility for making sure that none of Bobby's work was used fell to Jason, so that's where blame lies. Whether Brandie did any templatting or copy pasta or not is really pretty much completely irrelevant since even if she did it was still Jason's job to give the final pass a thumb's up or thumb's down.

I don't know and don't care if Brandie Tahlvin plagiarized anyone. And it's really not relevant to anything, since the editor and developer was extremely publicly warned of exactly this issue well before he moved forward on publication. And he very publicly stated that it was taken care of, when obviously it had not been.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Jesus Christ, and I thought WotC was dysfunctional.

[Fuchs]

From DS:

I've spent part of the day looking at it, and here's what happened: Bobby's version of the Mitsuhama chapter had already been laid out before he terminated his contracts. When the new material was sent to layout, some of the material in the Corporate Profile box was not omitted that should have been.

The Corporate Divisions paragraph has been removed from from the electronic versions currently on sale. It will not be in the printed versions. If you bought the PDF already, you should be able to get a free updated version.

Jason H.

[Fuchs]

So, all the shills harping on AH can eat their words - he was right.

[Asbestos Underwear]

What's the BS claims?

Randall Bills and Jason Hardy publicly stated that the AH's drafts were not going to be used as a template for the chapters in Corp Guide. However, side by side comparison of the two versions of Mitsuhama's corporate summary shows that they very clearly were.

Now, Brandie Tahlvin lays claim to the idea that she didn't copy anything. That could be true. She wrote a draft, and there's no guaranty that she even wrote a corporate summary. Or she could have written one that was stylistically different from the others in the book and thus had parts of her draft replaced by text from elsewhere (elsewhere apparently being "Bobby's Draft" in this case). Ultimately the responsibility for making sure that none of Bobby's work was used fell to Jason, so that's where blame lies. Whether Brandie did any templatting or copy pasta or not is really pretty much completely irrelevant since even if she did it was still Jason's job to give the final pass a thumb's up or thumb's down.

I don't know and don't care if Brandie Tahlvin plagiarized anyone. And it's really not relevant to anything, since the editor and developer was extremely publicly warned of exactly this issue well before he moved forward on publication. And he very publicly stated that it was taken care of, when obviously it had not been.

-Username17

Indeed. Which is why he should have posted things side by side and pinned the problem on JMH in the first instance, instead of sissyfooting around with one liners about being "suspicious" and fingering the author as a plagiarist. And lo, it was a JMH fuckup - he failed to adequately edit and proof the final layout.

That AH was correct isn't really material to the fact that he went about demonstrating it like a pussy and douche.

[setmonster]

Indeed. Which is why he should have posted things side by side and pinned the problem on JMH in the first instance, instead of sissyfooting around with one liners about being "suspicious" and fingering the author as a plagiarist. And lo, it was a JMH fuckup - he failed to adequately edit and proof the final layout.

That AH was correct isn't really material to the fact that he went about demonstrating it like a pussy and douche.

Don't be daft. AH did the clever thing. He gave that dickhead Hardy a length of rope and, lo and behold, Hardy hanged himself.

Job done.

[crizh]

hoping to monetize through a new licensee

Please don't use that word.

It disturbs me just how much this incident is starting to remind me of the SCO debacle.

I'm not one for religious intolerance, at least not directed at any particular religion more than any other, but the mormons sure manage to make themselves look like assholes fairly regularly.

[Crissa]

What does monetize have to do with religion?

-Crissa

[TheFlatline]

Indeed. Which is why he should have posted things side by side and pinned the problem on JMH in the first instance, instead of sissyfooting around with one liners about being "suspicious" and fingering the author as a plagiarist. And lo, it was a JMH fuckup - he failed to adequately edit and proof the final layout.

That AH was correct isn't really material to the fact that he went about demonstrating it like a pussy and douche.

Oh go piss up a rope.

I counted at least 5 separate instances where AH accused CGL of sloppy editing. Not necessarily of plagiarism. Turns out he was right. It *was* sloppy editing.

[Taharqa]

I counted at least 5 separate instances where AH accused CGL of sloppy editing. Not necessarily of plagiarism. Turns out he was right. It *was* sloppy editing.

And why does one need to take the issue of sloppy editing to an at-large forum rather than people responsible for the sloppy editing? I think you are missing Underwear's point. By making this public, AH is just alienating folks like Brandy and making sure that there is bad blood between freelancers and fans, no matter how the shit goes down. Its classic sour grapes.

[Username17]

Because now AH has a public record of everything he asked them to do, and everything they promised to do, and that he held up his end of the bargain and they did not.

Which means that it is now demonstrable that everyone attacking AH for sour grapes is full of shit, because they fucking did use his draft after he told them not to and after they agreed. So the fact that he is in the right and IMR is in the wrong is thoroughly and irrefutably documented.

Leaving concern trolls to bitch and moan about AH's tone. Because he fucking covered his ass about the accusations of lying - which I will point out were made against him anyway by Catalyst shills.

-Username17

[The Vigilante]

We really should all stop feeding the trolls. Most of the last 10 or so pages were irrelevant discussions about the fucking BT storyline and ruleset (start your own thread), or discussions with CGL shills about stuff that all reasonable people here agree upon and understand. Both of these subjects being entertained by said CGL shills and fanboys who obviously intend to derail all constructive discussion of the subject at hand.

[crizh]

What does monetize have to do with religion?

-Crissa

Nothing.

It's a word that SCO used extensively in their attempt to profit from the work of the Linux community when their own skills were insufficient to create something people were willing to pay for.

[Asbestos Underwear]

Monetization is converting a thought or one's labor into . . . money. Twitter offers a popular service, but they have relatively little revenue. Same for Facebook. They're both trying to figure out how to monetize [derive value] their social networks. People who write their own books and publish independently through on demand printers are monetizing.

Hardly a dirty word, let alone one that has any rational connection to the Mormon faith of which I'm aware. Is this a "troll the troll" thing? Or is Frank-esque religious baiting in vogue now?

[magnuskn]

I do think the player base is growing, you think its declining. The difference is that I willingly admit that my perception is based on my own anecdotal subjective impression and thus I don't trot it out as a god-given fact that I expect others to swallow.

Laughable. Every conversation I've had with every BattleTech player on several Cons over the last years showed that the player base is declining. There are always less players on Cons than the year before. At least in Germany.

[Clutch9800]

Good God what a cluster-fuck!

When every eye is on everything they do they fuck the dog like this.

Nobody is going to win in this mess. The fan-base of both lines is going to come out fractured and full of hate. No matter which way it goes.

Fuck, it wouldn't surprise me if someone died before this is all over, because it's spinning completely out of control.

If one or both game lines go away lots of fingers are going to be pointed at Frank, but to quoth the good Colonel Kurtz, Frank is just, "an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill."

Fuck it all.

So it is, few are shepherds, the rest sheep. Clutch provides the mental calisthenics to toughen up a gaming community gone soft. Until we meet again this is Clutch, signing off. Duty Now! For the Future!

[magnuskn]

We really should all stop feeding the trolls. Most of the last 10 or so pages were irrelevant discussions about the fucking BT storyline and ruleset (start your own thread), or discussions with CGL shills about stuff that all reasonable people here agree upon and understand. Both of these subjects being entertained by said CGL shills and fanboys who obviously intend to derail all constructive discussion of the subject at hand.

BT is just as much a part of any discussion about Catalyst than Shadowrun. The storyline of BT is a part of concern for BT fans. The Shadowrun storyline was also discussed in this thread.

[crizh]

Monetization is converting a thought or one's labor into . . . money.

I've always gotten the impression that their is an underlying implication that it involves endeavouring to make a profit from something that has little or no intrinsic worth or that profiting from would be morally questionable.

Perhaps it is because that the only times I have heard it uttered it has been exclusively by the sort of scum sucking weasels that the rest of us would be better of without.

I could monetize my children's internal organs but I would have no need to monetize 10 kilos of pure gold.

[Tiberius]

Good God what a cluster-fuck!

When every eye is on everything they do they fuck the dog like this.

Nobody is going to win in this mess. The fan-base of both lines is going to come out fractured and full of hate. No matter which way it goes.

Fuck, it wouldn't surprise me if someone died before this is all over, because it's spinning completely out of control.

If one or both game lines go away lots of fingers are going to be pointed at Frank, but to quoth the good Colonel Kurtz, Frank is just, "an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill."

I wouldn't get too worked up. As others have said, Shadowrun seems to retain a healthy fanbase and could be easily picked up by another company. I think even Battletech is salvageable by the right people, but it would require a bit of luck and the new Mechwarrior video game doing well. The problem for Battletech is that the companies that are competent enough to reinvigorate the property probably see the franchise as having too much baggage. Thus it will likely be bought up by a lesser developer who may not have the resources or sense of timing to pull off a turnaround. Still, even if they can't ressurrect intereset in BT the property won't immediately go under. There still is a cadre of devoted fans who will buy most anything BT related, so a dev could produce PDF and low cost printed material (i.e. B&W on cheap stock, like many of the books sold by FASA even in the heyday if the franchise) and turn a small profit for years.

[BeeRockxs]

Laughable. Every conversation I've had with every BattleTech player on several Cons over the last years showed that the player base is declining. There are always less players on Cons than the year before. At least in Germany.

Well duh.
There are no new translated books coming out (the last one was TRO 3067, wasn't it?), and a lot of the old german BT players feel their english is not good enough to read the original stuff.

[Stahlseele]

Heck, even some of the Younger german Battletech Players have Problems with the English used in these Books.
I mostly do translating for the guys i play with . .

[Stahlseele]

And th Dumpshock Thread got locked.
Again . .

[Fuchs]

Yeah. Mods claim not to be able to decide who is to blame.