The Shadowrun Situation

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Post by Username17 »

Maxus wrote:Is there any word on an update? How did the hearing go, in general terms?
IMR asked for phase 2 to begin in October, while the creditors asked for phase 2 to begin at the end of the month. The judge set the court for August 9th.

IMR apparently has over 250 creditors, many of whom are Loren's family and friends (there's that multilevel marketing thing I was talking about earlier). Apparently they also owe GenCon about thirty grand. Not so much with DragonCon, which makes them pay a year in advance.

The Batletech guys are still sitting around with their dicks in their hands confident that their loving friend Randall will eventually pay them. The artists have been convinced that Brent can blackball them in the industry if they rise up, so they are cowering.

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Post by Ganbare Gincun »

FrankTrollman wrote:IMR apparently has over 250 creditors, many of whom are Loren's family and friends (there's that multilevel marketing thing I was talking about earlier). Apparently they also owe GenCon about thirty grand. Not so much with DragonCon, which makes them pay a year in advance.
So Loren Coleman's larceny was even worse then originally expected, eh? /facepalm
FrankTrollman wrote:The Battletech guys are still sitting around with their dicks in their hands confident that their loving friend Randall will eventually pay them. The artists have been convinced that Brent can blackball them in the industry if they rise up, so they are cowering.

Is the entire Battletech community criminally retarded? Jesus.
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Post by 4815162342 »

FrankTrollman wrote:
The Batletech guys are still sitting around with their dicks in their hands confident that their loving friend Randall will eventually pay them. The artists have been convinced that Brent can blackball them in the industry if they rise up, so they are cowering.

-Username17
That would appear to be the case on the surface. People who actually know about the people who create Battletech know thats not quite the case even if outsiders don't understand it.

Most of the Content Creators for Battletech do so in their spare time and are not involved in the gaming industry in any other way other than as a player. Indeed some of the Artist only professional work is for Battletech and they are not looking for other avenues of creativity.

What I’m trying to say is most of them have a Day Job and Battltech is their fun side handyman job. You know the one you do for a buddy who will pay you back when you need it kind of thing. At least we do that in the south all the time, I just assume that happens elsewhere.
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Post by Maxus »

4815162342 wrote:
At least we do that in the south all the time, I just assume that happens elsewhere.
Well, I can agree with that much. It may not be all the time, but I have helped friends out and told them to pay me back when they've got the money.

It's on the honor system, but, amazingly, most people settle up.

Edit: After a bit more thinking, I can understand leaving someone you trust some slack if times are tough for them right now. BUT, if Randall Bills and Coleman has populated all of Battletech with people who trust them, and they're just using that to their advantage and don't intend to pay them back at all...Yeah.

Trust should work both ways.
Last edited by Maxus on Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by Crissa »

Splitting the difference is somewhat annoying. This means the license won't be even looking at new owners until at least the fourth quarter 2010.

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Post by Mandella »

First post here. I figured this might be relevant to be added to this thread, even though it is more about Catalyst than Shadowrun. If I should have made a new thread, I apologize.

This is the press release posted yesterday over at Eclipse Phase:



Posthuman Studios is pleased to announce that the reprint of Eclipse Phase is working its way into game stores and chain bookstores. We are working with our new publishing partners, Sandstorm Productions, to get more product to you as soon as possible! We are following up the Eclipse Phase core book reprint with the Eclipse Phase Gamemaster Pack, and later this summer you'll see Sunward: The Inner System, our first sourcebook.

Eclipse Phase has garnered great reviews, critical praise, and fired up the imagination of all who have read it. Demand has been high since it went out of stock earlier this year, and we are very excited to make it available again -- but this is not the "second printing" we thought would happen. Without going into gory details, instead of the second printing with corrections coming off the presses ... an exact duplicate of the first printing was produced by our previous publisher. We didn't learn of this until after all the books were printed and shipping to the USA.

We regret this situation -- we always want to improve our books with each printing -- but we know that Eclipse Phase is a strong game and the first printing of the core rulebook was very solid. Please give your local store a call (or an email, or a facebook message however you talk to your store, do it!) and let them know it's back in stock! Eclipse Phase's stock number is PS+21000, and retailers can order it from Alliance, ACD or other great distributors.



The bolded part is mine. And to give a bit more information, the second edition is in fact already out in pdf form, and those of us interested in the game were really looking forward to picking it up in hardback. Not that it's that big a catastrophe -- I think most will just go ahead and get it and then print out the errata from online, but it does show more bizarre business practices from Catalyst.

Also, no mention was made of just how Sandstorm and Posthuman got their hands on this printing. I'm thinking a daring commando raid on the cargo ships involving helicopters and stealth suits, but it was probably just some deal involving lawyers......
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Post by Crissa »

There was mention of some books handed over to offset debt for Wildfire. It would be the simplest way for CGL to keep creditors off their backs and encourage them not to push the bankruptcy proceedings.

Posthuman probably availed themselves of this chance.

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Post by Username17 »

Posthuman settled out of court with IMR. Going behind Adam and Robert's back to print extra copies of the first edition is but one of a long line of extremely questionable business practices along thse lines of recent months. I mean, you could excuse accidentally selling copies of Midnight while the copyright had been pulled, you could excuse accidentally slipping Robert Derie's work into sold copies of Corp Guide after he pulled his contracts and you had assured him in print that all of his work had been removed... sure. But the fact is, there's kind of a pattern of "accidentally" using materials that they don't have the legal rights to.

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Post by TheFlatline »

It also shows that CGL simply isn't very professional either.
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Post by Centurion13 »

Maxus wrote:...BUT, if Randall Bills and Coleman has populated all of Battletech with people who trust them, and they're just using that to their advantage and don't intend to pay them back at all...Yeah.

Trust should work both ways.
Agreed. I think it has been the consensus of most of my fellow local players that Bills and Co have perpetually surrounded themselves with literate fanboys, ones who will do just about anything for nearly any length of time to be thought of as one of 'Randall's Special Friends'.

Bragging rights, I suppose. I have seen stranger things happen in ST fan clubs :/

Anyway, it's what has kept them rolling all this time - why spend money on writing and art when you can get it much cheaper by judiciously issuing ego strokes? Very close to what I have seen of human behavior and a bit more likely than guys who write as a hobby suddenly afraid they will be blackballed. Anyone sufficiently into the hobby to actually fear being 'cut off' has seriously got to get another hobby. BT has become a major part of their life.

Cent13
Last edited by Centurion13 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Maxus »

Yeah...

That bums me out more than I like to think about. I'm generous sort of guy. My expenses are low since I'm living at home and all. Heck, the other week my boss asked me if I could loan him a twenty for some walking-around money until the next payday. I did. He paid me back the money the next week, plus the fee the ATM charged.

But I did it because my boss is one of the better bosses in the world for this job (Janitor: Not fancy, but it pays the bills during the summer. And gives insurance, too). He's really more of a friend than a superior. If he WAS a dickhead, I wouldn't be inclined to do that.

But, it looks like they have a cult of personality in Battletech. Battletech's player base also seems to be pretty clannish. So I suppose being one of Randall Bill's Special Friends will earn you rockstar status with your gaming group.

Eesh. I might have to go fix a s'more or some hot chocolate or something. That's depressing.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by Centurion13 »

Maxus wrote:...But it looks like they have a cult of personality in Battletech. Battletech's player base also seems to be pretty clannish. So I suppose being one of Randall Bill's Special Friends will earn you rockstar status with your gaming group.

Eesh. I might have to go fix a s'more or some hot chocolate or something. That's depressing.
Don't let it get you too down.

Remember, the lid has been blown off all their... escapades. The one player I know who has had personal dealings with Bills and his wife has reluctantly agreed that they have been... very naughty. To say the least.

If his reaction to this whole thing is typical of the average BT fan, then I should think any version of IMR and/or CGL which survives will find it most challenging to continue with this sort of chicanery.

First, only the most dedicated fanboy - or even a former party to that kind of dealing - will find it hard to turn their backs on these guys ever again. Second, what sort of cachet associated with knowing 'The Powers That Be' will remain when it's become obvious they are cheaters?

And they are. Even if they make it through the courts in one piece, their reputation with players is shot. And they won't change a thing if they can help it, so they'll soon be back to their old tricks.

But this time, the proceeds won't be nearly as profitable. See, the folks who valued money and spent the fan base's good will getting it will soon discover that even if we players can't bring them to court, we can convict them. We don't have to form an association. We just game with the people we like. And trust. No one I play with has any trust left in either Coleman or Bills.

And no one likes to play with a cheater. I was on the verge of becoming one and pulled back just in time. The price is too high, and the game is a sham. Gamers play with people they trust. Who would play with me if I was observed to be cheating? Furthermore, no one likes to be a patsy, and very few people will associate with a man who values nothing but winning the game. Any game. Even if you are in on it with him/her, who is to say you won't be next?

I predict these guys will find some way to shed IMR and CGL for cash within the near future, and move on to another 'game'. But maybe that's just wishful thinking. Like I said, their sort rarely changes its spots, and ego may have already blinded them to the downward spiral.

For IMR and CGL, for Mssrs. Coleman and Bills, the game is already over. And they've lost. All that is left? A few final publications to 'prove' they're still a going concern, possibly in preparation for selling a stripped-down company ala TSR. There will be some courtroom wrangling. Finally, if all goes well, the realization ten years down the road that they killed the goose which laid the golden eggs.

Even then, they will probably find a way to blame everyone but themselves.

Meanwhile, who wants to take a bet that one of Loren L. Coleman's favorite expletives right now is 'Frank Fucking Trollman'? :biggrin:

Cent13
Last edited by Centurion13 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by adamjury »

We knew Catalyst was reprinting the core Eclipse Phase book. We gave them corrected files. Catalyst elected to waive proof copies so they could get advance copies in time for the GAMA Trade Show. A few days later, one of those advance copies arrived on Rob's desk, looking exactly like a first printing. We assumed that someone at the CGL office had accidentally sent him a first printing from remaining BattleShop stock, but we looked deeper into it and found out that the printer -- who has otherwise been stellar -- accidentally reprinted the first printing instead of my new second printing files, AND since Catalyst waived proofs they didn't notice.

Waiving proofs wasn't allowed without Posthuman's permission, which we didn't give.

But in the end, we still think the first printing is a hell of a book, and getting it back into stores sooner is good for cash flow and lets us focus on follow-up projects.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Even if they make it through the courts in one piece, their reputation with players is shot.
Psh yah right . . "He was declared innocent!" or something like that . .
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TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Blasted »

adamjury wrote: Waiving proofs wasn't allowed without Posthuman's permission, which we didn't give.
Which, given how CGL seems to have been run is completely unsurprising.
But in the end, we still think the first printing is a hell of a book, and getting it back into stores sooner is good for cash flow and lets us focus on follow-up projects.
Good to hear. I may even buy it, despite my current propensity for fantasy rather than scifi. If you've got the time (and energy) I think that another thread on the gameplay decisions made in EP would be rather appreciated (of course, it will be ridiculed, kicked and burnt, but that is par for the course around here).
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Post by Maxus »

Blasted wrote:
adamjury wrote: Waiving proofs wasn't allowed without Posthuman's permission, which we didn't give.
Which, given how CGL seems to have been run is completely unsurprising.
But in the end, we still think the first printing is a hell of a book, and getting it back into stores sooner is good for cash flow and lets us focus on follow-up projects.
Good to hear. I may even buy it, despite my current propensity for fantasy rather than scifi. If you've got the time (and energy) I think that another thread on the gameplay decisions made in EP would be rather appreciated (of course, it will be ridiculed, kicked and burnt, but that is par for the course around here).
Well, someone's already taken a look at it, but another perspective is always appreciated.

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50 ... sc&start=0
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by adamjury »

Blasted wrote:Good to hear. I may even buy it, despite my current propensity for fantasy rather than scifi. If you've got the time (and energy) I think that another thread on the gameplay decisions made in EP would be rather appreciated (of course, it will be ridiculed, kicked and burnt, but that is par for the course around here).
:)

I'm afraid that time and energy are the limiting factors. Between ramping Posthuman up, various freelancing gigs, and having time for a life/playing games, I'm trying to limit my forum time to factual/business posts, and I have Rob chained to his desk until Sunward is finished.
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Post by cthulhu »

So where did we get the 250 creditors number from?
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Post by Stahlseele »

I guess it's the number of all parties that are owed something from CGL/IMR.
Topps, Printers, Posthuman Studios, Freelancers both shadowrun and battletech . . everybody . .
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by knasser »

Maxus wrote: But, it looks like they have a cult of personality in Battletech. Battletech's player base also seems to be pretty clannish.
It would explain the mess on Dumpshock where there seemed to be a sudden influx of new or very occasional posters angrily bashing Shadowrun freelancers or those that spoke up for them. A sort of clan invasion of our sphere.

(knasser knows very little about BT, but has a vague awareness of the terms and thinks he may have just made a joke).

K.
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Post by knasser »

adamjury wrote: But in the end, we still think the first printing is a hell of a book, and getting it back into stores sooner is good for cash flow and lets us focus on follow-up projects.
The first printing was a very good book, I have it and I'm very happy with it. And despite my doubts about your business model long-term (as e-books become increasingly preferable to print books), I do appreciate being able to download the updated PDF and this mitigates the problem with having a first print book somewhat.

(A brief comment on that though - I bought the PDF from DriveThru. It would be a nice touch for such customers if, as normally happens with DriveThru, I got a notification from them that an updated version of the PDF was available. I don't seem to recall that happening with Eclipse Phase).
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Post by adamjury »

Notifications are a user settable option, per title. If you didn't get a notification, you set your notifications incorrectly. Roughly half of buyers don't get update notifications.

We sold a big bunch of EP PDFs, despite giving it away for free allowing anyone to give it to anyone they wanted to, for free. Not to mention of course, giving them explicit permission to hack and redistribute it virtually however they like.

To quote myself, from: http://adamjury.com/2010/id-rather-be-w ... -spinning/
... we wanted Catalyst to sell EP at $10-15 for the PDF. They argued against it, and basically said “You’ll need to sell twice as many copies in order to make the same amount of money.” We said “Okay. If we don’t sell twice as many copies of the PDF as (ASpecificCatalystCoreBook) did in PDF in 18 months, you can take the difference in dollars out of our royalties.”

Less than six weeks after the PDF was available (and this was after we seeded the PDF to bittorrent ourselves — anyone could have it for free, legally), we broke that mark. This meant that we had made the same amount of money, and we had the PDF in the hands of at least twice as many people!

A few months after that, Catalyst lowered their prices on all core books, and announced that Leviathans would be Creative Commons-licensed as well. And the first print run of Eclipse Phase sold out, also.
Last edited by adamjury on Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Adam Jury wrote:We sold a big bunch of EP PDFs, despite giving it away for free allowing anyone to give it to anyone they wanted to, for free. Not to mention of course, giving them explicit permission to hack and redistribute it virtually however they like.
This was a really good idea. I buy more music from bands whose music I can listen to on the internet. Of course I'd buy more books from companies whose products I can test online as well.

Evil Hat sold a number of Dresden Files copies because a fan dumped their stuff on Demonoid. It's advertising.

There were a number of things I liked about Eclipse Phase, but the intellectual property is what I liked the most.

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Post by Stahlseele »

knasser wrote:
Maxus wrote: But, it looks like they have a cult of personality in Battletech. Battletech's player base also seems to be pretty clannish.
It would explain the mess on Dumpshock where there seemed to be a sudden influx of new or very occasional posters angrily bashing Shadowrun freelancers or those that spoke up for them. A sort of clan invasion of our sphere.

(knasser knows very little about BT, but has a vague awareness of the terms and thinks he may have just made a joke).

K.
Heh, not bad K *grins*
This is kinda as if you had told the clanners that the Kerensky-Brothers had fucked each other i guess . .
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by cthulhu »

Stahlseele wrote:I guess it's the number of all parties that are owed something from CGL/IMR.
Topps, Printers, Posthuman Studios, Freelancers both shadowrun and battletech . . everybody . .
That is obvious - just where did the total count of creditors come from? What is the source of that particular number.
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