Core Principle: Your Fantasy Economy is Bullshit

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

mean_liar wrote:The Tome rewrites primarily address shortfalls with DnD rules dealing with adventuring. I believe that it is clear that a similar rewrite - or even extension to existing spell lists - is a similarly reasonable undertaking.

My point was that there is an arbitrary limit on what custom content was reasonable and what wasn't. We can talk about Tome stuff, but when you step outside the limited bounds of what the Tome attempts to do, it's a no-go? That's silly. Not only that, but my limited reading of the Tome implies that you're still cranking out unlimited Wishes - which include mundane items.
No, when you hypothesize creating something that does nothing but hurt the actual game of D&D just so you can then use this hypothetical bullshit you just created to arbitrarily win some argument about how there should be zero non Wizards in the entire universe, that's fucking bullshit.

It's not out of bounds, it's just stupid. If I get in an argument with someone tomorrow that in D&D everyone is undead all the time, and they point out that there is no actual reason to hypothesize that all sentients become undead at earliest opportunity, and I respond with "But what if we make a custom level 1 Wizard spell that no save turns everyone who is not undead into undead under your command, and has a range of infinity, and doesn't require line of effect?" Then yes, they will call bullshit, because that's fucking retarded.

So yes, when you argue we should create level 1 Wizard spells that turn non Wizards into Wizards, it's bullshit.

In Tome rules, there is no limit to the number of mundane items you can wish for, but again, the point is that Wishes take actual time from actual level 11+ Wizards. And that time is better spent being a selfish bastard, or if not being a selfish bastard, altrustically casting divinations to find out where the next Lich King's army is going to show up, and then beating it, instead of spending all day and most of your highest level spell slots Wishing up large quantities of food in the local Grainhouse that is going to be overrun by undead anyway.
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Post by Danchild »

A mid-level wizard could use planar binding to attempt to bind an Efreet.

There is a cheap item that produces food. Murlyunds spoon or something. Each Efreet could produce 3. From memory, the food is bland and tasteless, but nutritional. It would not stop people from buying quality food, though I guess it woud be helpful during a famine. In order to feed a metropolis you would need to successfuly bind around 10,000 efreet. The casting time is not excessive, though the negotiation with the summoned creature can take days. With one successful negotiation per day, the wizard would need to spend 10 years in order to supply around 30,000 people with spoons. In other words, not going to happen unless the wizard delegates the task to a simulacrum or something.

The major creation spell would probably be of more use. The duration would just need to be sufficient for digestion. Creating food is a cleric or druid thing really. Custom creating a high caster level goodberry item would be the way to go. Then persuade the efreet to wish it into existance for you. That would require DM consent though.

In a famine or seige, you will be looking at the spellcasters to produce food. Otherwise, conventional methods of food production would serve a city better. The local cleric or druid might be using magic to feed the destitute though, or a wizard might be magically creating delicacies for the benefit of a few.
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Post by Rathe »

Oddly enough, when it comes to changing the world on a larger scale wizards, clerics and bards are the movers and shakers.

What you'll need is a number of schools, collages and institutions with the faculty having all taken the mentor feat. Considering that feat allows you to train your apprentices with 'free' xp, you could also have them create a few magical items along the way.

My personal favourites have always been:
1) Lyre of Building - 600 man hours / hour of playing with a DC 18 check? Yes please! (Especially considering how easily you can buff that check.)

2) Trumpet of Healing - a 360' radius 3/day healing, curing etc for your populace with a DC 15 check. Way to keep your people going, no plague for you.

3) Decanter of Endless Water - Irrigation, plumbing etc. At rates of 10, 50, 300 gpm, well I could do...whatever I wanted.

4) Mirror of Mental Prowess - like having your own minature 'stargate' and satellite in one. You scry and walk through (or ship items through)...no limits per day or anything.

5) Wind Pipe - doesn't seem like much, but it allows forced air through piping that is as long as you can make it...magic HVAC.

6) Whatever of Controlling Elementals - you may control elementals to assist in mining, fishing...the list grows when you can control the odd elementals like storm elementals.

7) Other Minor Items - Wands of Cure Light Wounds, Vigor, Repair Light Damage, Field Provisions Box ect. are certainly possible, but wouldn't have a huge impact.

With the use of just the above items, you'd still have people farming, crafting and providing services. The wizards, clerics and bards would use their skills to assist in major projects and city planning. Still might turn out to be a despotic magi/theocracy world, but hey it'll work smoother.

-Rathe
Last edited by Rathe on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mean_liar »

Kaelik wrote:No, when you hypothesize creating something that does nothing but hurt the actual game of D&D just so you can then use this hypothetical bullshit you just created to arbitrarily win some argument about how there should be zero non Wizards in the entire universe, that's fucking bullshit.

It's not out of bounds, it's just stupid. If I get in an argument with someone tomorrow that in D&D everyone is undead all the time, and they point out that there is no actual reason to hypothesize that all sentients become undead at earliest opportunity, and I respond with "But what if we make a custom level 1 Wizard spell that no save turns everyone who is not undead into undead under your command, and has a range of infinity, and doesn't require line of effect?" Then yes, they will call bullshit, because that's fucking retarded.

So yes, when you argue we should create level 1 Wizard spells that turn non Wizards into Wizards, it's bullshit.
Your hyperbole and inability to do much more than shout rather than comprehend is as bullshit as ever.

It's easy to create an item that casts Mending all damn day, and another that casts Unseen Servant, or Mage Hand. There goes a massive portion of workers and assumptions about what anyone does all day.

That's just a few things off the top of my head, without getting into customization to fill in logical extensions of what one could expect from a setting, and those customizations aren't lvl 1 "HAHA I WIN" spells. They're probably more along the lines of, smaller area-of-effect Fabricates with dedicated hard-coded tasks (rather than "do anything").

The custom make-Wizards thing was a feat that allowed tiered Apprenticeships, or allow multiple low-level Cohorts - not a level 1 spell. You fuck.
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Post by MGuy »

Frank says earlier in this thread. A caster can create 2 gallons of water out of nowhere and that is equal to a kid going to a well. No... it is not. This 0 level spell alone (0 level VERY easy to learn even for an untalented commoner who has 10 for a wisdom score) does a few things better than a kid with a well. Firstly its reliable. The well could be poisoned, empty, over used, frozen, destroyed, or non existent. In harsher environments (Deserts/Tundras) or during harsh conditions (Droughts/Winter) you have an ever present free source of water without taking from the environment. An invaluable element always on hand that makes it easier to live just by knowing it, especially if water is a rarity. And all you have to do to use it is sleep for 8 hours and pray for 1. its a 0 level spell so you don't even have to be particularly talented to use it.

Cure wounds, mending, purify food/drink, detect animals/plants, Prestidigitation (spices food, cleans, provides entertainment (if you care about that), all little tricks that with widespread use make the lives of the dirt farmers easier and requires just average potential to use.

Edit:
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
MGuy wrote:@ Endovair; Great now if a people are better off with magic, what is the point of having anything else?
If people who are highly educated are so much better than everyone else in real life, what's the point of having them?

Seriously, your rantings have become incoherent. No one is listening to you anymore. Just stop posting in this thread and walk away.
Ok I'm going to assume you're saying what's the point of not having highly educated people. I'm not saying anything about being highly educated. The BETTER comparison for what I'm saying is "If cars exist what's the point of not using them?"
Last edited by MGuy on Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by souran »

MGuy wrote:Frank says earlier in this thread. A caster can create 2 gallons of water out of nowhere and that is equal to a kid going to a well. No... it is not. This 0 level spell alone (0 level VERY easy to learn even for an untalented commoner who has 10 for a wisdom score) does a few things better than a kid with a well. Firstly its reliable. The well could be poisoned, empty, over used, frozen, destroyed, or non existent. In harsher environments (Deserts/Tundras) or during harsh conditions (Droughts/Winter) you have an ever present free source of water without taking from the environment. An invaluable element always on hand that makes it easier to live just by knowing it, especially if water is a rarity. And all you have to do to use it is sleep for 8 hours and pray for 1. its a 0 level spell so you don't even have to be particularly talented to use it.

Cure wounds, mending, purify food/drink, detect animals/plants, Prestidigitation (spices food, cleans, provides entertainment (if you care about that), all little tricks that with widespread use make the lives of the dirt farmers easier and requires just average potential to use.
This thinking here is essential to the problem.

The description of the wizard class indicates that you have years of study into the cosmic forces of the universe. The Sorceror class indicates that your magic is a byproduct of your heritage and cannot be taught. The cleric class requires a supreme devotion to your diety and a druid requires equal devotion to a nature diety or nature itself.

Heck even the NPC caster class in the dmg indicates that those that attain even the lowest levels are the shaman and wise people of their villiages and that they have spent their lives attaining what power they have.

You say that it only takes an average ability score to learn 0 level spells. This is not true. The average ability score is the minimum it takes to learn 0 level spells but it is not sufficient to just get you 0 level spells.

First you must find somebody to teach you magic, and you probably don't want to begin well after all your firends have been apprenticed to other trades. You might hope to be a sorceror, but if you are a sorceror are you probably don't decide to stick it out as the town water boy, why would you? You could adventure and become more powerful just by living.

Back to our lowly 10 int wizard apprentice. First you must find the wizard willing to take you in. Then he must decide to keep you even though your potential sucks. You study for years and years and at the end of it you have a skill set that is only slightly better than just doing the labor yourself.

You argue that the well could be poisoned, frozen, destroyed, or empty. Except, if its not any of these RIGHT NOW then making water is not of value because if you are a poor peasant you don't have the money to be choosy about using the free/cheap well or the services of the water vendor.

Look at the other low level tricks: Which of them cannot be learned while learning some other trade that doesn't have any stat requirement at all, and wouldn't be cheaper to just have the non magical craftsman do it?

Cure wounds = heal skill. Additionally, most peasants are not getting into swordfights that often (when they do they just die) and so healing broken bones and farm injuries can usually be done with heal. Hell the farmers themselves probably have a rank or 2 of this just out of self suffiency.

Mending: It takes no attribute requirement to be a tailor. While a wizards ability to mend is impressive and instant, mending also does not do the other things a tailor can do such as
resize clothing, convert cloth used for one purpose (say shirts) to another (say pants, or even blankets or sails). Again, mending only makes things whole it has no creativity it cannot repurpose something, which any trade skill could do easily.

Purify food and drink: This is a crisis ability and being able to magically solve this sort of problem is probably the one area where people would pay to have it resolved instantly. However, condensation collectors can generate clean drinking water and is a skill sailors and farmers will know. Brewing/fermenting alchol was likely developed as a way of sterilizing water.

Detect Plants/Animals: Most people are probably pretty happy with tracking and nature skills.

Prestidigation: Most people won't pay somebody else to clean for them. And as far as entertainment goes you probably need some performance training to to back up your prestidigation otherwise you are a one trick poney and that is not a stable lifestyle.


Then there is the aspect we have not even mentioned: If you trained as a wizard would you really settle down and make water all day as a way of supporting yourself?

You have pulled back the curtain of the cosmos and discovered that its filled with secrets man was never meant to know and you are going to use those secrets to run a midevil quick trip!

The players handbook prices are fixed, they are fixed because if it just said "values will fluxuate from market to market ask your DM" people would go crazy because they would have no fixed reference about what they can buy.

However, the fact that it says that laborors make 2 silver pieces a day does not mean that all laborers make 2 silver a day. It also does not mean that if you put up a sign that says paying 2 sivler for day laborers in D&D town you would get ANY takers. Actually you would probably get LoTS of unskilled laborers who normally make much less than 2 silver day.

The wizarding servives and costs to have spells cast for you in the phb really only apply to people with considerable disposable income and the ability to deal with wizards on anything like an equal playing field.

Unless your setting has a hogwarts and converts every third son of a farming family into a mnor wizard, wizards/casters are going to be a prestige position. Like doctors or laywers or famous theritical physicists. They are not going to compete against trades that can be learned with much less effort. Even if in the employ of some minor lordling, paying a wizard to make your clothes is probably not good choice economically.

This is the sort of thing that resolves the "why is everything not overrun with low level magic" It doesn't resolve the issues that allow magic to crash the economy from the top, but it does explain why its not illogical to have settings where every peasant doesn't have a rock of continual light.
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Post by mean_liar »

My point is that you can make an unlimited-use item for cheap - not that having a handful of 1st level spells is a game-changer. That's reserved for higher-level stuff.

Unlimited Unseen Servants is 2000gp away and usable by anyone.
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Post by Kaelik »

mean_liar wrote:My point is that you can make an unlimited-use item for cheap - not that having a handful of 1st level spells is a game-changer. That's reserved for higher-level stuff.

Unlimited Unseen Servants is 2000gp away and usable by anyone.
But you can't make infinite use level 1 spells. You can make 2 per day level 1 spells, or you can make 50 charges of level 1 spells. And both of those require an actual Wizard around to still do the casting anyway.

You are just making up items that don't exist and saying "Hey if you make these items that I just made up right now, you can totally just do whatever you want." But um, duh. If I made up a 2000gp item that casts the level 1 Wizard spell with no save to turn everyone into undead under my control, everyone would be undead.

But since I just made that item up, and it doesn't exist, you are retarded.
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Post by mean_liar »

Use-activated or continuous item cost: Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp

Example: Lantern of revealing


I cannot believe that someone that would advocate using Draconic Polymorph to turn into an Arrow Demon and then using a Splitting bow (though you skipped being an Archivist and casting Arrowsplit or any of the other Weald and Woe Ranger spells) would profess to not know how to create a custom magic item.

EDIT 2 - ...using a non-custom spell. I just assume at this point you're trolling.
Last edited by mean_liar on Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by MGuy »

Everyone doesn't have to be casters. Just saying that if more people tried there would be more of them since in spending your time learning to cast, even if you flunk out after a year and stay stuck in Adept ville (which I hadn't even thought about Adepts) you can at least go back to your rural dirt farm and dome good for your family. In essence I'm saying if your kingdom has more (institutionalized) mages than your neighbors you are better off especially if you're a god king who can make them listen to you.

Create water and blah blah are only useless to you if you have other resources available. If those resources are available and you do not have need of them, then I agree they are devalued. But what about when they aren't available?

I'm not saying magic labor completely replaces regular labor but the magic potential is there. The whole Wall of Stone thing, even the create water thing is to show that magic has the potential to do it better and can do it in conditions where you don't have the resources making it a very very valuable resource. If leveling in all things is equal, out of everything a person who just so happens to have the mental stats could be leveling in (honestly there are high level commoners) the MOST efficient use of your time and experience is to learn magic. Yes its a rare talent, yes its harder to learn than hitting a nail with a hammer but its worth it. Just by the virtue of your time being WORTH more evidences this.

Lets take firearms. They used to be rare. A thing only a select few knew about and could wield. Its appearance did not eliminate bows and arrows or crossbows. In fact making bows and arrows was cheaper and more cost effective then making a firearm. However the fire arm was an undeniably better tool, evidenced by their increased use. What you and Frank are saying is that magic, like a fire arm, won't ever change things and that despite how obviously effective they are they will never be institutionalized. Firearms WERE rare and costly and now you can find them anywhere that has'em at affordable prices.
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Post by Grek »

Going to have to agree with mean liar here. What you'd likely end up with is a single altruistic wish-economy guy taking a day off and wishing for a shit-ton of use-activated magic times that cast low level spells.
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Post by souran »

MGuy, magic is indeed super awesome at replicating the effect of higher technology levels or whatever because its friggan magic, you put in hopes and dreams and puppy dog tails and dark secrets man was not meant to comprehend and you get INSTANT results.

Yeah, wall of stone is more impressive than the the 5 stone masons working 9 hours. However, all the other added oportunity costs that go along with getting that level of power make it a net losing propesition.

To get to the point where you can be a good stonemason requires you be apprenticed and learn the craft. To get to the point where you are a wizard able to make walls of stone spring from nothing requires you to crawl around in caves and fight fucking mind flayers.
MGuy wrote: Create water and blah blah are only useless to you if you have other resources available. If those resources are available and you do not have need of them, then I agree they are devalued. But what about when they aren't available?
If water is not available you don't have civilization. However, yes as we said above A wizard is probably the person BEST able to make use of a cataclysim for their advantage. Wizards can make assloads of windfall profits. Indeed it might even seem to be possible to be a wizard, cause all the sheep in a kingdom to turn into bloodthirty orcs, show up with a "cure" and net a tidy profit.

However, exploitation economics are unsustainable. And besides you have to leave someplace nice enough to spend all your wealth. The simple fact is that in most cases the services D&D magic spells can provide to mimic trades are going to be out performed by those trades flexibility in the long run. This makes that magic a minor econonmic force.
I'm not saying magic labor completely replaces regular labor but the magic potential is there. The whole Wall of Stone thing, even the create water thing is to show that magic has the potential to do it better and can do it in conditions where you don't have the resources making it a very very valuable resource. If leveling in all things is equal, out of everything a person who just so happens to have the mental stats could be leveling in (honestly there are high level commoners) the MOST efficient use of your time and experience is to learn magic. Yes its a rare talent, yes its harder to learn than hitting a nail with a hammer but its worth it. Just by the virtue of your time being WORTH more evidences this.
There are multiple issues here. First is that in the "stock" D&D world there is not equal opportunity to learn magic. Magic is learned similar to other trades and so you must become apprenticed to wizard or study at a temple or some other option that is not open. So while learning magic might indeed increase your earnings potential there just is no night school to become a wizard.

Secondly, you are not adding in the other elements that act as deterants. Consider this: if you are a U.S. citizen and have a science or technical degree one of the ways to make the most possible money right now is to go and work in afganistan with your technical degree. First the money is earned outside the U.S. which reduces the taxes on it. Second, the pay is usually higher in a warzone. Third if you contract with the U.S. government in any way you can get combat hazard pay any day your normal workplace comes under fire. Amazingly, the people in my techical workplace are not fighting over positions in Afganistan.

However, even disregarding the disencentives; the method of making wizards in D&D is nominally to slow to churn out major magical effects. Its the reason why they added the schools of magic and the artificier class in ebberon.
Lets take firearms. They used to be rare. A thing only a select few knew about and could wield. Its appearance did not eliminate bows and arrows or crossbows. In fact making bows and arrows was cheaper and more cost effective then making a firearm. However the fire arm was an undeniably better tool, evidenced by their increased use. What you and Frank are saying is that magic, like a fire arm, won't ever change things and that despite how obviously effective they are they will never be institutionalized. Firearms WERE rare and costly and now you can find them anywhere that has'em at affordable prices.
Firearms also require even less knowledge to use effectively than bows or crossbows or to teach people effective soldiering. If you had a similar tool that could churn out effective low level wizards in half the time of the standard apprenticeship method and let them make magic items without having to learn all the dark secrets of the universe first (like being able to load and fire the firearm without needing to understand how to make gun powder) it would be somewhat different.

However, in general D&D its not low-mid level wizards who can with a snap of their fingers put the stonemasons guild out of buisness that present a problem to the economics of the world. Its the fact that a single high level wizard can wake up one morning and decide to wish for the maximum amount of gold a wish can make in dimonds and crash that market and that is with a totally unimganitive player. The multiude of problems above and beyond that seem to make magic a top end problem and not a labor saving issue.
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Post by Kaelik »

Grek wrote:Going to have to agree with mean liar here. What you'd likely end up with is a single altruistic wish-economy guy taking a day off and wishing for a shit-ton of use-activated magic times that cast low level spells.
If an elventh level Wizard could create custom items, which is complete bullshit, we get it, use activated Sword of True Strike with the use being making an attack roll, shut up.

If they even could, taking a day off would allow an 11th level Focused Specialist Conjurer with an Int score of 25 who used every slot for Planar Binding to cast 6 Planar Bindings with DC 23 at CL 11. An Efretti has a will save modifier of +9, so a 14 succeeds. So maybe four successes.

So sacrificing an entire day of an 11th level Calling Specialist, and 6 6th level slots and at least 1 3rd and 1 4th level slot, assuming you can reuse the same Dimensional Anchored Magic Circle, you can get 4 magic items.

That's called not a huge effect on the economy of the 30,000 people he lives with. And if he gives enough to get say a magic item for every 1000 people, in that same time, a Lich King murdered everyone sixteen times.
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Post by Crissa »

Your 10 int wizard could be poisoned, frozen, killed, imprisoned, or empty, too.

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Post by mean_liar »

...or he spends the 1000gp raw cost and (2000/25) XP and a day. He could do that too.
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Post by Username17 »

Grek wrote:Going to have to agree with mean liar here. What you'd likely end up with is a single altruistic wish-economy guy taking a day off and wishing for a shit-ton of use-activated magic times that cast low level spells.
Wish Economy doesn't drop huge numbers of cheap items on you. It drops small numbers of cheap items on you. Enough that three periapts of wound closure clearly are not worth a Crystal Ball, but not enough to outfit everyone in the world with Periapts of Wound Closure either.

An Efreet in your bottle makes 3 items a day. That's amazing, and it's enough to fill all the body slots for your entire party in a few weeks - but that's all it does. I will give one item to everyone in your modest city in... one thousand weeks. Assuming the Efreet doesn't decide to fuck off before then.

Decanters of Endless Water are amazing. They make 5 gallons of water per second. But I remind you: 432,000 gallons of water per day sounds like a lot, but that's a 10 minute shower for 17,000 people each day using modern low-flow shower head. If you want to live a vaguely modern and non-smelly lifestyle, you're going to need a lot more than one Decanter per town.

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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

souran wrote: However, in general D&D its not low-mid level wizards who can with a snap of their fingers put the stonemasons guild out of buisness that present a problem to the economics of the world. Its the fact that a single high level wizard can wake up one morning and decide to wish for the maximum amount of gold a wish can make in dimonds and crash that market and that is with a totally unimganitive player. The multiude of problems above and beyond that seem to make magic a top end problem and not a labor saving issue.
Yeah. Pretty much at some point your economy is going to collapse. I mean the entire premise of the Wish economy is basically that the gold economy is a joke and really doesn't function at all.
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Post by RiotGearEpsilon »

FrankTrollman wrote:Decanters of Endless Water are amazing. They make 5 gallons of water per second. But I remind you: 432,000 gallons of water per day sounds like a lot, but that's a 10 minute shower for 17,000 people each day using modern low-flow shower head. If you want to live a vaguely modern and non-smelly lifestyle, you're going to need a lot more than one Decanter per town.
Just as well you can build up an arbitrary quantity of them in the Wish Economy? The Wish Economy means that it's totally plausible for a major player to set up an infrastructure built up around magical items so long as those magical items cost 15,000 gp or less; that means that once you have Capital in the form of a Bound Ifreet, you can start using that Capital to produce any Capital you can conceive of that falls within the 15,000 gp maximum - and that is a tremendous array of incredibly valuable, useful wealth-producing Capital.
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Post by Kaelik »

RiotGearEpsilon wrote:Just as well you can build up an arbitrary quantity of them in the Wish Economy? The Wish Economy means that it's totally plausible for a major player to set up an infrastructure built up around magical items so long as those magical items cost 15,000 gp or less; that means that once you have Capital in the form of a Bound Ifreet, you can start using that Capital to produce any Capital you can conceive of that falls within the 15,000 gp maximum - and that is a tremendous array of incredibly valuable, useful wealth-producing Capital.
Yeah, you can do that for two weeks, right up until the Lich King murders your face and takes all your stuff, because you are a bitch who used your hundreds of wishes to make shitty items instead of making a bunch of special gear and giving yourself +5 to all stats.

Congratulations, you fail at life.
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Post by mean_liar »

So every 11th+ level Wizard in existence is waiting for the Lich King? What a crock. What are the 18th+ levels doing? Stepping aside? In light of the vanguard's superior character levels, surely the rearguard can afford to occasionally do something useful.

NO! HAHA. It was a joke. Of course everyone on the planet is fighting the Lich King/Ogre Warlord/whoever. No one in the course of all time would ever be able to solve a problem as intractable as finding three months of downtime.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

mean_liar wrote:So every 11th+ level Wizard in existence is waiting for the Lich King? What a crock. What are the 18th+ levels doing? Stepping aside? In light of the vanguard's superior character levels, surely the rearguard can afford to occasionally do something useful.
Or alternatively, the level 11 Lich King is fighting you, and the level 20 Demon Lord is fighting the level 18+ Wizard, and WHAT THE HELL! Did you just try to claim that there are more altrustic Wizards who care about the poor downtrodden at personal cost to themselves than their are evil shit heads bent on conquering them?

Seriously, it's like your not even trying to engage in real conversation.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Grek »

Let's say he does what Kaelik says and spends all 4 wishes on gold. Each set of 25000 gold that he wishes up is then handed over to a trustworthy associate, so that they can start up a business. One wheat seller, one rice seller, one beans seller and one corn seller.

The profits that they make are then funneled into making jars of Marvelous Pigments, which are promptly painted into precisely one million pounds of wheat/rice/beans/corn each. If we assume that every single person eats a pound of food every day and that wheat/rice/beans/corn all cost the same as the 1cp/lb cost for wheat, then they each need to make 2500gp a month in profit, minimum, to keep all 30000 people fed.

Because this is a level 11 dude we're talking about, we're going to assume that his buddy's businesses are, infact, all Oligarchies if not Manopolies. Because he tells the other framers to stop farming or else. Further, we are going to assume that they all work 40+ hours a week, that they are part of a guild(that their high level buddy started), that they have at least 2 appropraite profession skills each(painting and merchanting), that they have specialists(the people making the pigments) and that they alll have business partners(also the people making the pigments) aiding them. This gives a combined total of +12, before ability modifiers. Which means an average roll of 22 or 110% profit or 2500gp each. Precisely as much as they need, as it turns out.

With food taken care of from now until forever, he decides to make another 100K:

He has his apprentices (or whatever) make the following:

5000gp: 5 Custom, use-activated items of Cure Minor Wounds: This effectively replaces the town doctor, since it takes your average peasant about a minute to go from half dead to full health while using it.

5000gp: 5 Custom, use-activated items of Mending: This replaces your tinkers and simple repair work.

10000gp: 5 Custom, use-activated items of Unseen Servant: This removes the need to personally perform any tedious work. It also replaces oxen.

10000gp: 5 Custom, use-activated items of Mount: Free horses for everyone. As many as you want.

45000gp: 10 Decanters of Endless Water. While 432,000 gallons of water per day is not enough for 30000 people, 4,320,000 gallons is plenty.

6000gp: Custom, once per day item of Plant Grown: Does exactly what it says on the tin. You're growing wood with this, or fruit, or cotton. Not wheat, since you already have lots and lots of that.

10000gp: One custom, use-activated item of Detect Alignment for each alignment: Exactly what you think it's for.

4000gp: 4 custom, use-activated items of Purify Food and Drink: For the grainries.

5000gp: 5 Custom, use-activated items of Guidance: So that you can get some Divine Guidance on demand.
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Post by mean_liar »

No, it's like you're assuming that evil antagonists are in equilibrium with good protagonists at all points in time forevermore, and evil antagonists would never do anything good for their own empires, and good will never have the upper hand anywhere for any appreciable length of time, and they will inevitably lose that upper hand.

Those are reasonable assumptions for a setting you've designed yourself, and they would indeed lead to a world where every PC everywhere at all times was warring all the time. But they're not reasonable assumptions for every setting ever... going back to my point about questions and guidance being more important than dictats for "Core Principles".

Crapsack World = nothing good for anyone ever is fine. All settings = nothing good for anyone ever is stupid.
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Post by virgil »

Anyone remember the "Bringing the World out of the Dark Ages" article in the Dungeonomicon? That's the primary source/excuse I use. I assume altruism by the heroes is only really thought of in the form of stopping rampaging monsters/liches, the more 'holy' types thinking farther ahead and personally thwart environment rampages like starvation or disease.

Actually investing in capital like lyres and decanters for the peasants to use/own though, that's just crazy talk. Even the D&D Goddess Theresa would go "how can they afford it? they don't have anything to give the wizard that he can't already give himself for free". The closest thing would be the Atlantis expy, which is something that existed long ago and was the cause of its own apocalypse. You might, might see a single city/oasis that uses such devices in its glory to mimic the olden days, but it'd be a ruled by an iron-fisted despot.
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Post by Lokathor »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
this seems mildly relevant, and bump
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