The Shadowrun Situation

[krainboltgreene]

3. Fixed that for you, and I'm already seeing it.

Then throw some damn links around, don't just assert it.

And I don't see how that's "fixed that for you" -- Creative Commons isn't the only license out there, and it's not as if some large IPs wouldn't cook up their own license as Wizards did with the OGL.

There are more than a few RPGs being built by indy developers or solo that are under the CC license. Creative Commons is more popular, easier to read, and setup.

4. Fuck the OGL, with a rusty lead pipe. Fuck that movement too.

What's wrong with the OGL? It allows derivative works under any license you desire. Only good came out of that.

OGL: There is a shit ton wrong with this thing, but first this:

2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.

[Surgo]

There are more than a few RPGs being built by indy developers or solo that are under the CC license. Creative Commons is more popular, easier to read, and setup.

Links. And from the beginning I was talking about things that would actually see some sales volume. I'm not saying indie or solo items won't see any volume of sales, but I am referring to things that will actually move when I refer to "the industry".

OGL: There is a shit ton wrong with this thing, but first this:

Most licenses don't allow you to add or remove terms to the work's copyright if you aren't the copyright holder...I don't think the CC licenses do either.

[krainboltgreene]

Most licenses don't allow you to add or remove terms to the work's copyright if you aren't the copyright holder...I don't think the CC licenses do either.

How come there isn't a facepalm emocon for situations like this?

[Surgo]

So are you trying to tell me that the creative commons licenses allow someone who isn't the copyright holder to distribute the work under different terms than the creative commons license you're referring to?

[crizh]

At least one might well do.

There are several of them designed to cover almost every eventuality.

I presume at least one of them might be BSD-like in that regard.

edit

At first glance Attribution seems to fit the bill.

[Surgo]

Yeah, but even the BSD license, when you use it and distribute it, it is still licensed under the BSD license. You haven't added terms to its distribution -- you can't change its license.

I guess he (and you) can be talking about distributing it as part of a larger work, which you can incorporate the BSD-licensed part into without licensing it all as BSD. But if that's what this is about, as far as I'm aware CC-BY-NC doesn't allow that -- same condition as the OGL.

It's pretty hard to figure out what the hell krainboltgreen is talking about because all he seems to post is one-liners.

[crizh]

Yeah, but even the BSD license, when you use it and distribute it, it is still licensed under the BSD license. You haven't added terms to its distribution -- you can't change its license.

AFAIK this is factually completely incorrect.

Windows for example contains significant amounts of BSD code and is distributed under a very different licence.

edit

You appear to be confusing BSD and the GPL.

further edit

or not...

[Surgo]

Yeah, that's not what I meant -- I meant the license for the individual part is unchanged, but it allows distribution in something larger.

[crizh]

AFAIK you can include BSD code in derivative works with nothing other than attribution. You are free to re-licence it in any way you see fit so long as you provide attribution. In practice I think BSD code is rarely given proper attribution.

I haven't taken the time to read it but I think the CC Attribution licence is very much modelled on the BSD licence. The Share Alike CC licences would appear to be the ones modelled on the GPL.

[Surgo]

Yeah, I could be a little wrong about all that. I was under the impression that you could pull out of the Windows executables the BSD-licensed part (if you could even find it with 100% accuracy, let's assume you can) and distribute those parts and those parts alone freely.

Anyway, the license in question is specifically CC-BY-NC, which I think is one of the more "viral" ones.

[Taharqa]

To return us somewhat to the orginal topic: Corp Guide has a street date of July 21. So, the printers are running.

[Wesley Street]

I wonder what finally made CGL announce product street dates.

[adamjury]

Why wouldn't they, Wesley? Catalyst SOP -- which didn't always get followed, but should have -- was to wait until they could confirm the in-store street date, and then announce it.

[Endroren]

I wonder what finally made CGL announce product street dates.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Username17]

Ancient History released his PACKS in pdf form.

I think he currently has more Shadowrun pdf releases than Catalyst this year.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

which is quite an achievement, don't you think? O.o
also, the pdf for 6th world almanach is out . .

[JesterZero]

Ancient History released his PACKS in pdf form.

I think he currently has more Shadowrun pdf releases than Catalyst this year.

-Username17

This is hilarious and true.

Also, good for the game.

[Juton]

Breaking news from the classic battletech webpage, apparently CGL has secured an extension, I wonder for how long? Apparently they're in the midst of negotiating a new contract, I think they'll probably secure it if they can get it done before their trial is over.

[Crissa]

You mean this press release?

Of course they'd get an extension while in proceedings. Else they could counter sue saying that Topps isn't following its contract. Even if they hadn't paid, because that wouldn't be determined yet by a court.

-Crissa

[Username17]

The court date Declaration is up. Yep: August 9th, just like my sources said.

-Username17

[Centurion13]

Huh. So it would appear - from the press release and the way they are crowing over on the company website - that Coleman, IMR, CGL and Bills are exonerated by Topps. They have the extension, so nyah to everyone who thought the company was dead.

And by extension, anyone who thought anything Frank Trollman said was true. And by further extension, anyone who thought Coleman and Bills were anything but the Best Guys in the World.

Fucking fanboys. Is it any wonder I abandoned 40K over a decade ago?

So tell us, Frank. Is this true? Can these sorry bastards really do that to their investors, their employees and their creditors and not only walk but get a medal for it as well?

Or am I missing something here?

Cent13

[Username17]

Well, they aren't saying how long the extension is, and they specifically said that they were still in negotiation with Topps hoping for a long term. Earlier there was a proposal to give IMR an extension through GenCon, which I reported on. Unless they say otherwise, I'm assuming that they got exactly that.

It's a plausible strategy for Topps. GenCon is one of the largest sales events of the year, and it is folly to think that a new company could get a product out the door in time for it (unless they were very professional, and frankly even then). With PSI having exclusive distribution rights, Topps can hope to get a genuine tally on all the sales from the period. And this way they don't miss a GenCon, something which would be bad.

The question is really how much damage that IMR can do to the properties over the summer. I'm guessing: a lot. They squeezed out the 6WA pdf. And wouldn't you know it? They "Streamed that one over Bobby's drafts too." It's a theme. When was the last time they published a book without an accompanying ethical scandal? I can't even recall. May not have happened.

Bottom line: there is still hope for someone to "rescue" the game lines. But it's not going to happen until after the court date in August. It's not going to happen until after GenCon comes and goes. And even if it does happen, it's going to happen really slowly because a new company is going to have to come in with a plan and start implementing it. And it's going to have to contend with IMR shitting out low quality writing and editing jobs all summer. It would be like coming in right after Year of the Comet. Only in serial form, so there's actually kind of a lot of reading to do to find all the stupid.

Really bottom line: I've made it pretty clear that I thought the chances of me doing any more "official" writing for Shadowrun were slim to none - even if Shadowrun changed hands to a company I respected. I think at this point that I won't be doing any more fan writing for it either. The entire situation makes me sad, and I genuinely don't know if it is salvageable.

-Username17

[Centurion13]

I know what I was expecting. After all the evidence, the ethical snarls, the lawyerese, I wanted Coleman and Bills to be Gone.

They were the major source of rot. They were the ones who tied themselves most closely to the properties, though to be fair it was BT and not so much SR.

And they get to stay. They are not being cast out or cut off by the one entity who could do it of their own free will. I must be missing something, some sort of restraint which keeps Topps from doing just that.

Not only has the Inner Ring been exposed, it has survived the exposure. There are folks lining up even now over at the company site, pointing out to the Powers That Be that they were alway loyal, that Trollman is scum. You can see them licking their lips in anticipation of being called up for initiation into the Sacred Mysteries.

The really creepy part is that a lot of these people are not only not put off by it, they actually look forward to it, as though ethical lapses were something other people got into trouble over. Once you belong to the Inner Ring, other Inner Rings recognize you. And one of the main Holies of the Inner Ring is that it must never, ever lose position or face in front of non-Members. So... maybe something in Topps is coming to the aid of something in IMR, recognizing a kindred spirit?

Or do we have yet another example of the Temple taking care of its own, regardless of the utter and complete lack of regard concerning anything the Church itself is supposed to represent?

I am beginning to think so. Forgive my lapsing into what appear to be conspiracy theories, but it is really becoming difficult to understand why these guys still have their hands on the controls and their fingers in the till.

Cent13

Edit: You know, after taking a good look at some of the posts on the CGL forums and ruminating on the behavior of the local BattleTech League, I have come to the conclusion that the game attracts a lot of moral retards. And that the mentally-challenged appearance of some are a result of the moral decay.

[Username17]

The really creepy part is that a lot of these people are not only not put off by it, they actually look forward to it, as though ethical lapses were something other people got into trouble over. Once you belong to the Inner Ring, other Inner Rings recognize you. And one of the main Holies of the Inner Ring is that it must never, ever lose position or face in front of non-Members. So... maybe something in Topps is coming to the aid of something in IMR, recognizing a kindred spirit?

It's really not that dramatic. Topps is a business. They don't want to lose money. Loren Coleman convinced them that they would lose more money jumping ship right now when there was a pile of releases in the wings and GenCon on the horizon than letting them hold on until GenCon is over. That's a purely business decision. The lawsuit will trundle on and Loren Coleman will have several more months to come up with a new strategy or that and also for trying to get Topps to buy into the idea of giving him another extension.

The thing that has been revealed by this though is that the Colemans and Bills and Horners of the world are completely unapologetic about their miscreancies. And perhaps more importantly, it has revealed the moral fiber of the Battletech fanbase: and it's not good. I have seen the moral worth of Battletech fans, and it is not much. I don't like Battletechers any more. Even if I had the power to get them out of their death spiral, I just... wouldn't. I genuinely feel that I owe nothing to the Battletech community. They have earned my contempt, and they have it.

-Username17

[Centurion13]

It's really not that dramatic. Topps is a business. They don't want to lose money.

Yeah, you're probably right.

... I have seen the moral worth of Battletech fans, and it is not much. I don't like Battletechers any more. Even if I had the power to get them out of their death spiral, I just... wouldn't.

-Username17

Unfortunately, I agree. I have seen the same sort of moral blindness in Magic players as well. They think of ethical behavior as a baboon thinks of classical music.

When I do think of the sycophants on the CGL board, I no longer consider them people who share my interests. They are after something quite different. Most of the people who agreed with me on this topic over the CGL forums are gone.

The monomania, the attention to detail on a game system describing a world which does not and never will exist - it all made sense as long as we remembered it was a game. When the head of the company made off with the dough and his buddies piled on to defend him, it stopped being about the game (if it ever was for them). Or at least it stopped being fun.

When my fan-TRO is finished, I am going to play the local game once a month and that's it. I can't stand any more of the politics and the brownnosing and the jockeying for position in an organization which ultimately fills the pockets of a handful of people and makes fools of the rest.

Cent13