What I got from reading Manual of the Planes

[Doom]

Yes, the evil prince, in his heart of hearts, wants what's coming to him in the lower planes.

By embracing the core principles of LE--he's on top, and thus is entitled to all the luxury and pampering and domination he enjoys, the 'rules of the game' say that he's going to be on bottom eventually.

Maybe he won't admit to wanting to be a worm in the devilish heirarchy, any more than a warrior in Valhalla wants to be hacked to bits on a fairly regular basis...but, that's the de facto desire.

If he really wanted more, he'd seek to expand his power, gain arcane knowledge, increase his dominion...instead, he's content to just enjoy being on top for a while.

[Maj]

Yes, the evil prince, in his heart of hearts, wants what's coming to him in the lower planes.

[Utterfail]

Doom: That's stupid, but not because PoliteNewb was right in anyway.

The LE Prince probably wants to go to an afterlife where he can chillax and do lay on expensive food and fuck unicorns (or was it the other way around....). Him ending up on the lower planes is a classic example of "oops, didn't follow the tenants of the right gods."

Christians, for example, believe that if you suck at being a Christian you don't go to heaven, but instead hell.

Now, if the prince was instead proactive about it, and made sacrafices to his dark lords while his hired bards played death metal in the background, then yeah, he was aiming for a sweet promotion in the lower planes.

[Starmaker]

I'd gladly go to Pandemonium, because DJ Layla wants my heart and soul and down there I'm guaranteed to not hear her ever again.

[Danchild]

Actually, Christian mythology states that people who suck at being Christians go to purgatory. Non-Christians such as the unbaptised or pagans, go to limbo. Unrepentant evil people go to hell for a semi-eternity. At least until the Day of Judgement. Which may have come and gone already, noone knows.

Interestingly, the etymology of the word hell is Hel, the name of the Norse underworld and the duo-toned goddes that ruled over it. It is the origin of english words like hall and helmet.

[Username17]

Actually, Christian mythology states that people who suck at being Christians go to purgatory. Non-Christians such as the unbaptised or pagans, go to limbo. Unrepentant evil people go to hell for a semi-eternity. At least until the Day of Judgement. Which may have come and gone already, noone knows.

Christian mythology is nothing if not confused. Purgatory and Limbo are not actually biblical constructs at all. While many people believe in Limbo, it is not officially sanctioned doctrine in any major Christian sect.

In official Christian doctrine there are just two groups: the saved (of which there may be as few as 144,000 if you take your Biblical Prophesy literally) and the damned (everyone else). With what exactly it is that you need to do to get saved being highly unclear (major splits between right rituals, right thoughts, right deeds, and right birth between different Christians even in the same nominal sects). This doctrine is intensely unpalatable, and most "Christians" do not actually believe it. This is where heresies like "Limbo" and "Lesser Heavens" come into it.

The idea is that most people simply cannot reconcile being on the "Good Side" if that side intends to punish people in a lake of fire forever just because they were born and died of measles before anyone got around to performing a forgiveness ritual on them. Because let's face it: that's some pretty sick shit right there. So they come up with other alternate ways to get to heaven that presumably apply to these children born with "original sin" but who have not actually done anything wrong. And then they come up with some sort of contrived reason that these routes are inferior to the one involving doing what the priest tells you to do and praying to the right god and doing the right rituals at the right time. Because of course, if the other routes to heaven weren't any worse, all that ritual would be a complete waste of time.

But there's no biblical writings or anything that support anything like that. Heck, there's no original evidence that non-Jews can be Christians. That was added later.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

Actually, Christian mythology states that people who suck at being Christians go to purgatory. Non-Christians such as the unbaptised or pagans, go to limbo. Unrepentant evil people go to hell for a semi-eternity. At least until the Day of Judgement. Which may have come and gone already, noone knows.

Wasn't limbo a Catholic thing and not a Christian thing?

In fact, yeah... limbo isn't even a Catholic doctrine. It was a postulate that arose in the Medieval Ages from the question of what happens to infants who die before baptism, say while still being carried by the mother.

The official Catholic stance on such things is "while the church is bound to the sacrament, God isn't, so if he chooses to save those souls on his own, he will."

Plus, purgatory isn't a place, per se, it is simply a state of being purged of your sin through suffering until you've done your time. Which faithful can pray to saints to get you time off for mass served. Again, this is a Catholic thing, *not* a Christian thing. Protestants in their various forms reject the notion of purgatory, both as a process and a place.

[Username17]

Plus, purgatory isn't a place, per se, it is simply a state of being purged of your sin through suffering until you've done your time. Which faithful can pray to saints to get you time off for mass served. Again, this is a Catholic thing, *not* a Christian thing. Protestants in their various forms reject the notion of purgatory, both as a process and a place.

First: Catholics are Christians. They are in fact the largest denomination of Christians. So anything that is a Catholic doctrine is by definition also a Christian doctrine. Because it is a doctrine espoused by some Christians and indeed many Christians. You cannot set a standard for "all Christians espouse this doctrine" to label something a Christian doctrine, because you can't get all Christians to agree on anything. By such a standard, there are no Christian doctrines at al and the label is meaningless. Seriously, you can't even get universal agreement on:

• How many Jesuses have there been?
• Was Jesus a man?
• Does Jehova make mistakes?
• Is there anything as powerful as Jehova?
• Are the stories in the bible true?
• What was the point of Jesus dying on the cross?

Secondly, the world isn't just Catholics and Protestants. Not even within Christianity. There are also Eastern Orodox, Coptics, Mormons, and Jehova's Witnesses. They all have different doctrines. The Jehova's Witnesses, for example, espouse that you don't actually go anywhere when you die, you are recreated at the end of time for judgement day and you get saved or damned at that point, to live in heaven or hell for an eternity for precisely the same amount of time whether you were born and died a thousand years ago or just within the last few years.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

Fair 'nuff, point taken. And you're right. I was leaving out a lot of Christian denominations. I tend to differentiate Catholicism from the rest of Christianity though from a historical point of view. They were first, and pretty much most of the rest of the history of Christianity was reactionary to Catholicism in one way or another.

If memory serves, purgatory as we normally think of it is largely a Catholic thing, and Eastern Orthodox generally believes in it, while not labeling it purgatory.

Latter Day Saints have a complicated system I'm not even going to try to remember, and I want to say that Gehenna is a Jewish version of purgatory, but not as dire as the Catholic version. I don't remember some of the other faiths you've listed. It's been like 16 years since I did studies of a lot of different religions.

Outside of Christianity I do know that purgatory is a pretty old concept spiritually however. I guess the idea of a little bit of temporary suffering is a more appealing fate than to be consumed by some dark deity and end up as God shit. Which I'm surprised isn't listed in D&D as paradise for someone or another ("And if you devote yourself, you too may be lucky enough to be consumed by our God, and then pass through his anus when he is done digesting you. Could you ask for a better reward?")

My original point though was that labeling purgatory as a staple of Christianity only works if you ignore a huge amount of denominations. His definition was generally spot on however.

[setmonster]

Fair 'nuff, point taken. And you're right. I was leaving out a lot of Christian denominations. I tend to differentiate Catholicism from the rest of Christianity though from a historical point of view. They were first, and pretty much most of the rest of the history of Christianity was reactionary to Catholicism in one way or another.

I think the people of the Syriac and Coptic Christian communities might take issue that their churches are johnny-come-latelys. The Catholic Church was actually relatively late into the Jesus-worshipping fraternity.

[Username17]

Outside of Christianity I do know that purgatory is a pretty old concept spiritually however.

Well, in that outside of Christianity/Islam almost no one takes the Christian idea of "Hell" seriously. Chinese taoists and Buddhists have a lot of post-life punishments available, but none of them go on forever. Zoroastrianism will cast you into a lake of fire for your sins, but only until you've been punished commensurate with your actual sinning.

The idea of punishing people infinitely - where the punishment literally never lets up or ends in billions and billions of years - that's actually totally disproportionate to pretty much anything. And even most Christians don't go for it - which is where the whole idea of "lesser hells" gets brought in sideways as a lay flock heresy.

I think the people of the Syriac and Coptic Christian communities might take issue that their churches are johnny-come-latelys. The Catholic Church was actually relatively late into the Jesus-worshipping fraternity.

Well, the Eastern and Western Catholic churches got their start in 325. Yes, the Syriac and Coptic Churches are substantially older than that, but I don't think it counts as "relatively late" by any means. The Great Awakening was in the 1730s, and the Zion Watchtower erected in the 1870s. Those guys are relatively late.

Seriously though, the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches are the same age, since before the 12th century they were the same organization. They drew a line down the middle and the bishops on one side took all the believers there, and the bishops on the other side took all the believers there.

"But the fridge is on your side."
"So is God."

-Username17

[Prak]

Honstly, Acheron is a pretty nice place. It's constantly brimming with the spirit of nationalism and you march around making empires that stand for a few centuries and then various factions tear it apart and you do it again. It's like living in Rome or something, but you never run out of iron and there aren't any barbarians - just more empires you are in trade/contact/conflict with.

Upon reflection, yeah, Acheron sounds okay.

Compared to Valhalla? Fuck yes. There you just get slaughtered every day for no reason. In Acheron you could literally go twenty years between actually getting stabbed in the head. The lands of Lawful Evil are in many ways nicer than the lands of Chaotic Good.

Where's Valhalla? In Ysgard, yeah, there's eternal fights...but there's also eternal party time at Kord's Hall, and eternal drinking and orgies at Olidammara's den, and eternal sunshine and hunting in Alfheim, and eternal crafting and forging in the depths of Nidavellir...and all of those (except Olidammara's joint) mention petitioners living there. So it's not like you HAVE to do the whole mindless combat thing.

Even the deepest burningest pits of Baator are actually fairly pleasant places to be. You're a Lemure - you don't actually take damage from fire. Fields of sharpened glass are just aesthetic choices, because you're a Lemure and you don't actually get hurt by shuffling over broken glass either. Not a nice place to visit, because a foreigner probably gets hurt by heat. But that's like bitching that the Elemental Plane of Fire must be awful for the residents because it is on fire.

All right, statement about how hell's real estate retracted. But the reason you don't care about the fire and broken glass is because you're basically a mindless meat puppet. Weren't you the one talking about how becoming nonsentient was such a horrible fate?

Also, there's a difference between "not going to hurt you" and "fairly pleasant". What's pleasant about Baator? From a human perspective? Because while devils and such may love it, most of the people who die and go there are humans. And while becoming a lemure makes you not mind, becoming a soul shell explicitly includes the ability to feel pain, and gives no fire immunity.

From this human's perspective? There are a lot of things I get an urge to do that are considered evil, or bad, at least. So Hell? That's where I go and, every time I have an evil urge, I act on it, and get a pat on the head and a biscuit.

I do some time as a lemure? ok. There's explicitly a promotion track in Ba'ator1. Entities start as Lemures, and can end up as Pit Fiends, Dukes, or even Arch-devils2. I explicitly have some way of going from Lemure to Spined Devil, and, given that I'm mindless for a while, that's probably a duration deal. It's basically a second infancy thing. Then I become a spined devil and get to be a cool "imp" with porcupine quills until I acquire enough personal might or brownie points to become a bearded devil, and I serve in the army until my sarge says "Asmodeus has signed off on you becoming an imp"3, and I get to go be the familiar of a devil cultist or diabolotor and tempt them further along the path of evil and obeisance, and defile and corrupt the tavern wenches in every town he passes through. repeat until I become a duke or kill and replace an arch-devil.

Alternatively, I can dedicate my mortal life to spreading pain, fear, oppression, and evil, conquering settlements and kingdoms, sacrificing and converting people the worship of arch-devils, and violating unicorns for fun and profit and earn myself the Ba'atonean version of an Ivy League scholarship and start my afterlife a bit higher up the chain.

OR, devils are lawful, and they explicitly have miniatures of every devil form inside their skin4 which, when they're promoted, their consciousness retreats into the proper one, and it swiftly grows to full size, ripping out of the old husk. There is no reason I could not make a run for it from Hell as a spined devil, get to the Material plane, find some LE monks, and learn to advance my form through meditation and xp acquisition.

1 FC 2 pp9-12
2 FC 2 p10
3 FC 2 p10, "Infernal Advancement Path"
4 FC 2 p17, Reproduction


Now. Would I actually want to go to Hell and be a Lemure? no. I'm not Lawful, and would get incredibly frustrated with the draconian, baroque heirarchy and all that. Given a choice between only Hell and the Abyss, I'd much rather take the gamble with the Abyss, because 1) the weakest form, Dretch, is intelligent. Not very, but I'd take it over Lemure. I'd also much rather be a deformed human than a mass of molten flesh. 2) becoming a new demon is more... free form. It can happen, it may take special rituals, and riskily acquired components, but that just means I start adventuring. 3) The abyss is infinite. I have a decent chance of the local milieu being the clod of dirt that someone's staked some tenuous claim over, rather than a layer ruled over by an epic threat. 4) Demons are sexually differentiated, or at least, chaotic enough for there to be a chance of it, and I like having sexual capacity, thank you very much. 5) A demon is only under the influence of those that can force their fealty, rather than everyone above them. And there's a whole lot more reasons I'd prefer an afterlife in the Abyss over an afterlife in Hell.

Which afterlife would I prefer overall in D&D? The smart one of "fuck gambles and chances, I'm using magic to give fate the middle finger" and I find a ritual to turn myself into a lich, or a sword wraith, or a powerful outsider of my choosing.

[Red_Rob]

I think a lot of the disconnect comes from the fact that planes such as Baator are pretty directly inspired by the Christian Hell, which was concepted as a place people got sent to as a punishment. Its entire purpose was to be the most unpleasant thing you could think of to scare people into becoming a Christian.

For the writers of D&D to change almost nothing about the place, but to then do a 180 and claim this is somewhere that people strive to get to as their ultimate reward is somewhat perplexing.

Just because someone is evil in life doesn't suddenly mean they enjoy the smell of sulphur, or want to go to sleep listening to the screams of the tortured. Most evil people want the same things most good people want, they just don't care who they screw over to get it. This does not translate into enjoying being reborn as "ghost-like forms which can be molded by the devils into increasingly horrific and agonized forms"

[Prak]

Because they want more than that.

MM, p. 147

"Orcs believe that to survive, they must conquer as much territory as possible".

"They can ally with other humanoids for a time, but quickly rebel if not commanded by orcs".

"Their deities teach them that all other beings are inferior, and that all worldly goods rightfully belong to orcs, having been stolen by the others".

"Male orcs pride themselves on the number of females they own and male children they sire, as well as their battle prowess, wealth, and amount of territory".

...why the fuck are Orcs chaotic in 3.x? This all says lawful (ish, the last is neutral to chaotic, I suppose) to me, and that WotC were idiots for keeping the old flavour and changing the alignment...

And aside from the orcish concept of 'beatings make you stronger' that is espoused in Races of Destiny and a few other places, I don't generally see much about how orcs accept torture as a way of life. The most torture-loving orcs I see are the Eyes of Gruumsh, who self-torture to show how hardcore they are. And the fact is...they're specifically NOT the norm. Because they're hardcore.

you're right. They don't see torture as a way of life. They see pain as the primary fact of life. Sometimes you inflict it, sometimes you take it. And some are fairly ambivalent about which end they're on. Go read Grunts by Mary Gentle, it'll make more sense.

Edit: While we're talking about christian teachings...

You know what the current definition of the torment of hell is?

The absence of God.

Speaking as someone who was raised christian, and considered himself so until 16, and never felt the "presence of god" even once, I'm perfectly fine with going to hell if that's the "punishment".

God ain't there? great, that means we can have hookers, booze, and lounge acts without daddy looking over our shoulders, and plan an assault on the pearly gates. If I have to slap some damn sense into Lucifer to make it the Vegas and Pentagon on steroids that it should be, I'll fucking do it.

[Danchild]

To be fair, mythology is a fairly broad term, encompasing apocryphia, heresy and official doctrine. For example, nowhere in Christian doctrine does it state that Satan is a pitchfork weilding amalgam of Bacchus, Pan, Dionysus and various other horned gods, yet it is widely acceped as a part of Christian mythology.

I do not see the problem with evil people being rewarded by the gods of evil in a fantasy game. The thing is though, I doubt many dieties would care enough about their followers to reward or punish them. The idea of a personal god is potentially damaging in real life. In a fantasy game, people who hold the belief that their god has a special place for them are in for one hell of a reality check once they die. I thought that was the entire point of petitioners in planescape. Only the special few souls who have really impressed a diety are going to receive any semblance of an immediate reward. Everyone else can get in fucking line.

[angelfromanotherpin]

You know what the current definition of the torment of hell is?

The absence of God.

Interestingly, the Islamic Hell is the presence of God. Because everyone goes to the same place when they die: God's room. If you're a good person his presence soothes and uplifts you, and if you're a bad person his presence fills you with shame and makes you really itchy.

[CatharzGodfoot]

[Bitching about Law vs. Chaos]

[TarkisFlux]

What? How is it not a punishment to be tortured? Are all evil people assumed to like being tortured just as much as they like torturing? Just because they believe that torture is a valid life choice doesn't mean they enjoy other people doing it to them.

I didn't say that it wasn't a punishment to actually be tortured, though I probably could have been more clear, just that it was not a punishment to be sent to where being tortured could happen to you. I don't doubt that most people who go to one of the lower planes don't want to be tortured or eaten or slaughtered or whatever, but they do want these things to exist and for them to be able to do them. So while the upper planes might be an easier ride for them and also have an advancement scheme, it's an advancement that specifically does not include things that they want out of life / how they think the world should work. Actually going to the upper planes would be more of a punishment than going to the lower planes since they would be denied things that they actually wanted, even though going to the lower planes will probably be worse for them in the short term.

[magnuskn]

Yes, the evil prince, in his heart of hearts, wants what's coming to him in the lower planes.

By embracing the core principles of LE--he's on top, and thus is entitled to all the luxury and pampering and domination he enjoys, the 'rules of the game' say that he's going to be on bottom eventually.

Hm, that would depend on that evil prince actually knowing where he'll go in the afterlife, wouldn't it?

[Doom]

In D&D cosmology, he does know.

[Danchild]

In D&D cosmology, he does know.

Not neccesarily. But he can find out if he has access to the right magic and asks the proper questions. Even if he can discern his final destination, there is no garuantee to his fate once he gets there. Unless he is the pet of some deity or archfiend, the best he can hope for is to be tucked away in some quiet corner and avoid the lemure press-gangs.

[Ice9]

While the "clawing your way up from a Lemure is worth it so that you have the freedom to backstab people" thing might make sense for some evil types - the ones that drink from a skull-goblet and enjoy having prisoners lowered into the snake pit - it doesn't make so much sense for the "lazy evil" types, who just want the easy life and don't mind stepping on everyone else to get it. Heck, if you put them in one of the better "good" afterlife planes, they probably wouldn't even bother slitting anyone's throat, because they would have no need to.

[Username17]

While the "clawing your way up from a Lemure is worth it so that you have the freedom to backstab people" thing might make sense for some evil types - the ones that drink from a skull-goblet and enjoy having prisoners lowered into the snake pit - it doesn't make so much sense for the "lazy evil" types, who just want the easy life and don't mind stepping on everyone else to get it. Heck, if you put them in one of the better "good" afterlife planes, they probably wouldn't even bother slitting anyone's throat, because they would have no need to.

But there are evil gods of sloth who have an afterlife where you just lounge around in your own filth.

The only way you get screwed is if you pick a side and then suck. Then you end up getting turned into fucking furniture. And even then, I suppose that's a thing to aspire to if you think being alive blows. You know, Nirvana and all that shit.

-Username17

[PoliteNewb]

Now, if the prince was instead proactive about it, and made sacrafices to his dark lords while his hired bards played death metal in the background, then yeah, he was aiming for a sweet promotion in the lower planes.

Again, where are you getting this from? The MotP says that if you're LE, you go to Baator, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Doesn't matter who you worship.

And again, what happens to you ALSO has nothing to do with who you worship or how well. It says that most LE people become petitioners (soul shells) and the most vile and evil become lemures. That's it. There is seriously NOTHING about promotion based on devotion.

So if you're a pure LE bastard who doesn't pray to anyone, you go to hell and become a lemure.
And if you're a pure LE bastard who sacrifices to Asmodeus every night...you go to hell and become a lemure.

The only difference is that the second guy EXPECTS to become a lemure.

To Prak: okay, looks like back to 4shared to grab the Fiendish Codex, and then some more research to do. Thank you for the citations.

And yeah, I have no idea why they changed orcs to chaotic.

I didn't say that it wasn't a punishment to actually be tortured, though I probably could have been more clear, just that it was not a punishment to be sent to where being tortured could happen to you. I don't doubt that most people who go to one of the lower planes don't want to be tortured or eaten or slaughtered or whatever, but they do want these things to exist and for them to be able to do them. So while the upper planes might be an easier ride for them and also have an advancement scheme, it's an advancement that specifically does not include things that they want out of life / how they think the world should work. Actually going to the upper planes would be more of a punishment than going to the lower planes since they would be denied things that they actually wanted, even though going to the lower planes will probably be worse for them in the short term.

This actually makes a lot of sense, and thank you for that explanation.

The only way you get screwed is if you pick a side and then suck. Then you end up getting turned into fucking furniture.

And we've come full circle to where Frank repeats this assertion with no explanation or backup whatsoever.

Where the hell does the furniture thing come from? Because I'm not seeing it. I seriously wrote down at the beginning of the OP all the things that can happen to you, and "furniture" isn't on the list...unless that's what you mean by "joins the essence of the plane"...and that's something that happens to you if you ARE judged worthy, not if you fail. It's one of the options for being GOOD at your chosen alignment, not sucking at it. It's an option instead of "becomes a lemure", and the book doesn't even say if this is the choice of the petitioner, the deity, or the DM. What it is not is a punishment for not being evil/good enough.

If you suck (which basically means you were good/evil enough to get to the right plane, but not good/evil enough to be judged "worthy"), it explicitly says one of two things happen to you: you become a petitioner, or you get reincarnated. And petitioners for each plane are described, and none of them say "furniture".

So where does it say that?

[norms29]

my take on the MotP afterlife was that each alignment represents a "world view" (We all know that this isn't actually true, but bear with me) and when you die and go to the plane of your alignment you're being sent to a place where you basic outlook, your beliefs about how things should be structured is the dominant order. the fact that you you start at the bottom is just fine print.
the reason the evil realms seem to suck is because that's what evil does, it makes systems which are brutal and either repressive, or just genricly unsafe.
although as has been pointed out, the lower planes aren't as bad for their native inhabitants as they seem to us, they have damage reductions and energy resistance which reduce what you percieve as constant danger to mere window dressing, which they implement to make themselves seem more badass. or to discourage good creatures from coming in and mucking about.

admitedly, since this means shoe-horning all sapient minds into nine catagories, individual planes should have inner conflicts about the finer details.