Could the Matrix movies have been saved?

[Koumei]

Oh god. I saw Oldboy when I visited Melbourne in January. Shit was depressing, and then the guy showing it said "Yeah this is the nicest, most feel-good of the series."

[Parthenon]

How many good second parts to trilogies are there?

Empire Strikes Back
Adams Family Values
The Two Towers
X Men 2
Back to the Future Part 2
Evil Dead 2
Spider Man 2
Spy Kids 2
Oldboy

Yes, but of those, most of them are self contained stories or hadn't been thought of when the first came out. Only Empire Strikes Back and Two Towers continue a story that the writers had in their heads at the beginning.

I mean, taking Oldboy since it's being talked about, it doesn't link with the other two films at all really. It is just a film that could have been first or third in the trilogy with no real change.

[erik]

Oh, I thought of another good part 2 in a trilogy.

Desperado.

[RandomCasualty2]

Other good sequels

Aliens
Terminator 2

[Parthenon]

Aliens and Terminator aren't the second in a trilogy. Both have at least four films out. And neither is Indiana Jones, now I think about it.

But it's still proving my last point again. Each of those was a self contained sequel to an original film. The first film didn't leave the plot open to be furthered by the others in the series, nor was there a plan at the beginning to have a story over several films.

There have been 15 good seconds in a trilogy/quadrilogy stated so far, and of those 10 were sequels to the original film and weren't supposed to be a trilogy to start with, 1 is a prequel, and 1 has nothing to do with the others in the trilogy.

It's probably because there aren't many studios willing to make multi-film stories.

[MGuy]

How many good second parts to trilogies are there?

Empire Strikes Back
Adams Family Values
The Two Towers
X Men 2
Back to the Future Part 2
Evil Dead 2
Spider Man 2
Spy Kids 2
Oldboy

Yes, but of those, most of them are self contained stories or hadn't been thought of when the first came out. Only Empire Strikes Back and Two Towers continue a story that the writers had in their heads at the beginning.

I mean, taking Oldboy since it's being talked about, it doesn't link with the other two films at all really. It is just a film that could have been first or third in the trilogy with no real change.

Isn't a movie supposed to be able to stand alone even if its only a part of a series?

[Surgo]

If we can generalize to things that are just sequels (not part of a trilogy), and non-film media, then we can add stuff like...

- Half-Life 2
- Baldur's Gate 2
- The Great Hunt
- Morrowind
- Saints Row 2
- Team Fortress 2

And if we generalize to things that didn't top their predecessor but were merely almost as good as it, you can add to that list...

- The Subtle Knife

What makes a sequel bad, though? I'm convinced that it's just another aspect of the second system effect, and that the makers take a lot of that stuff they left on the cutting room floor for the first movie and use it, when it really was left on the floor for a reason. The guys who make good sequels realize this and have their own methods of avoidance, whether it's starting from scratch or making drastic changes in setting or whatever.

[Blasted]

Terminator 2
Star Trek 2
Aliens
Toy Story 2
The Cat Returns
Die Hard 2
Mad Max 2


I'm sure there are plenty of lists on teh intarwebs.

[Neeeek]

How many good second parts to trilogies are there?

Empire Strikes Back
Adams Family Values
The Two Towers
X Men 2
Back to the Future Part 2
Evil Dead 2
Spider Man 2
Spy Kids 2
Oldboy

Yes, but of those, most of them are self contained stories or hadn't been thought of when the first came out. Only Empire Strikes Back and Two Towers continue a story that the writers had in their heads at the beginning.

How is that an argument in favor of your position? When the Matrix came out, they hadn't considered making sequels, and when Matrix 2 came out they were already making 3. Much like X-Men, BttF, Spider-man, and, arguably, Spy Kids (which is actually wildly entertaining. Well, the first two are.)

Hell, LotR was pitched as a 2 movie series originally. Peter Jackson was shocked when the studio execs suggested 3 books = 3 movies. He thought asking for 3 might sink the project so he hedged his bets. Worked out fine all around. And Lucas didn't expect to (be able to afford to) make a sequel to Star Wars. There was story envisioned, but nothing set in stone.

[Parthenon]

I was pretty sure that the Matrix was originally supposed to be a trilogy, with the original Matrix as the second part (weirdly, making it a good second part to a trilogy). Then, because the first part was retarded and way too long for a film it was summarised in one of the Animatrix shorts and the third in the story was made into two films. Why couldn't it just have been kept as a single film?

I'm surprised at the Lord of the Rings films being planned to be two films. That is weird.

But yeah, this topic of second in trilogies is probably a bad one and confused one, and what makes a sequel good or not is a more interesting one.

[Zinegata]

The Matrix could have been saved if it was not a trilogy.

Seriously. Lots of little side trips were just plain unnecessary and didn't really advance the story.

I mean, sure, it was cool seeing the mechs shoot up the machines. But ultimately it doesn't change what the story was ultimately about:

The Messiah chooses to die to break the cycle of hatred between man and machine.

And that's honestly an okay concept to build a story around. Sure it's kinda Biblical, but the Bible is a bestseller .

[RobbyPants]

One thing I wish they wouldn't have done in the first movie was the whole premise of the machines using people for energy. I know they threw in that "combined with a form of fusion" line in there to make people think it was plausible, but it still makes no sense.

I once read that the original idea was for the machines to use the people's brains as some form of networking or something, and that seemed intriguing, but the execs thought that would be too complicated and wanted it changed.

They couldn't make movies once Neo was God. And the DBZ fight at the end of the third was like getting a fork in the eye.

Yeah, it was just them smashing into each other, making orbs of rain bounce off of themselves. It wasn't even fun to watch.

How many good second parts to trilogies are there?

Also, the Bourne Supremacy.

[erik]

I'm not sure where Silence of the Lambs goes in its trilogy since the 3rd movie was a prequel.

[Lago PARANOIA]

You know what's weird?

The people in Zion have been mostly shown to be uniformly brown/mulatto but since the Matrix is supposed to be an accurate representation of an American city, most of the people in it are by demographics white. And going by Morpheus's technobabble peoples' 'Matrix Self' looks a lot like their real world self.

What is the movie trying to tell us here?

[CatharzGodfoot]

One thing I wish they wouldn't have done in the first movie was the whole premise of the machines using people for energy. I know they threw in that "combined with a form of fusion" line in there to make people think it was plausible, but it still makes no sense.

I once read that the original idea was for the machines to use the people's brains as some form of networking or something, and that seemed intriguing, but the execs thought that would be too complicated and wanted it changed.

Yeah, that was one of the more egregious fuckups by the executives. We go from a message that is intriguing and somewhat complimentary to humanity ('They need us for our minds!') and shift to one that is completely nonsensical and more that a bit insulting.

However, they were clearly doing something right: Give the Wachowski 'brothers' too much artistic freedom and they apparently come out with absolute shit.

---

And Lago, I think the message is that white people are living is a fantasy world created by class privilege from which they do not wish to wakethe people doing casting didn't bother to match up the demographics between Zion and the matrix.

[Maj]

Also, the Bourne Supremacy.

Fuck you, Paul Greengrass.

I was so happy to hear that the Bourne trilogy was making it to theatres - I loved the books. I even loved the first movie. But then you had to go and get involved and that ended my ability to watch the films without vomiting. I had to leave the frickin' theatre in the middle of the second flick.

Thanks, asshole.

[ubernoob]

- The Subtle Knife

Does this really qualify as a sequel? His Dark Materials is one overarching story much like LotR. Granted, it's been a few years since I read the trilogy.

[Ganbare Gincun]

You know what's weird?

The people in Zion have been mostly shown to be uniformly brown/mulatto but since the Matrix is supposed to be an accurate representation of an American city, most of the people in it are by demographics white. And going by Morpheus's technobabble peoples' 'Matrix Self' looks a lot like their real world self.

What is the movie trying to tell us here?

I don't know, but your post made me think of this exchange for some reason.

[K]

The first Matrix was fine. Even the philosophy was fine..... I mean, I think the public at large should get some exposure to freshman philosophy if they aren't going to go to college.

The second and third were tripe. For a trilogy of movies called The Matrix, they spent precious little time in the fvcking Matrix. I mean, the whole Zion part of the movie could have been like ten minutes of clips at the end so we knew why they were fighting at all..... I so didn't need to see the orgy scene (and whoever shot the sex scene between Neo and Trinity made two attractive stars have very icky sex).

The second and third movies should totally have been like Akira with total city devastation as titans fought and people died instead of some perfect stylized battlefield. Neo should have been fighting to save the Matrix as suddenly millions of people waking up in their pods = insta-gib as there is no friendly future-submarine to catch them.

As it was, it was a lot like Superman IV for the fight scenes and lacked a coherent plot. Of course, Buddha/Jesus has to ascend through some heroic sacrifice, but it should have been a techo-ascension by sublimation through some essential revelation about humanity.... globalization and brotherhood of man stuff would have played very well here.