Some new counterspelling rules

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:26 pm

I wanted to do some counterspelling in an upcoming game, so I decided to try my hand and rewriting the counterspelling rules. It might be begging the question to call them "better", but I firmly believe that anything is better than the current nonsense.

They can be found here. I was hoping I could get a few thoughts.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:51 pm

If I'm reading this correctly, this is a massive power up to gishes. Instead of fearing dispel magic, they just prepare a bunch of dispel magic for themselves and any spell (such as dispel magic) that goes through their threatened area (such as all of dispel magic) they can dispel with an AoO+immediate action without needing to make a CL check. This also nerfs actual offensive casters because fuck tons of enemies have dispel magic as an at will SLA.

Basically, you're kicking the sorcerer that wants to cast baleful polymorph in the nuts while buffing up the clerics, druids, and gishes.

Am I correct in my reading?

My suggestion (assuming I'm right in the way it works): Take away the AoO thing and just use the actual dispel rules while keeping the counterspell function of dispel magic immediate action cast time.

Edit: You're giving the best feature of Samurai away pretty much for free at level 1. Seems to make it too good to dip a level of duskblade just to be considered a 'spellcaster' in order to parry any magic that ever effects you.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:44 pm

Duskblades get Dispel Magic at level 1? I thought they didn't get it at all.

Also, I thought the best feature of the Samurai was Kiai! or Iaijutsu Focus -- not Parry Magic.

It looks like the real issue is the dispel magic one. That's annoying, because I'd like to make it a bit more general than "a spell slot of equal level or higher". Not sure how to fix that.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:03 am

On review, I think you are exaggerating to the point of hyperbole.

Even with these rules, nobody is going to want to prepare dispel magic in all of their spell slots, they're actually going to want to accomplish something. Sorcerers might pick up Dispel Magic and they'll be kings of counterspelling. I'm okay with that.

"fuck tons" of enemies don't have dispel magic as an at will SLA. To go through the Monster Manual, the following enemies have it:
* Nightcrawler
* Nightwalker
* Astral Deva
* Planetar
* Solar
* Marut
* Zelekhut
* Ghaele
* Titan
* Avoral
* Babau
* Balor
* Glabrezu
* Nalfeshnee
* Pit Fiend

Total number: 15.
Number of monsters in the Monster Manual: About 410.
Percentage of the Monster Manual with dispel magic or greater dispel magic as an at-will spell-like ability: Approximately 3.65%. I might have miscounted by a couple, I'll be happy to call it 4% as a conservative estimate.

It's certainly a danger to spellcasters if they have Combat Reflexes, but I wouldn't call that a fuck ton of monsters.

Edit: Just checked the Duskblade spell list, their first dispel magic effect is a 5th-level spell. Not really dippable, that.

I'll grant that there may be a problem with the way dispel magic works, but I'm not convinced that it's as massive as a problem as you believe it is.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:19 am

Surgo wrote:On review, I think you are exaggerating to the point of hyperbole.

The enemies that are really scary are dragons, outsiders, and various forms of spellcaster (from classed NPC to illithids). Almost all of those get dispel magic. You're making the hard enemies even harder, which was my point. This isn't a power up to enemies that aren't their CR such as ogres, but a powerup to enemies that are already good.

Even with these rules, nobody is going to want to prepare dispel magic in all of their spell slots, they're actually going to want to accomplish something. Sorcerers might pick up Dispel Magic and they'll be kings of counterspelling. I'm okay with that.

Actually, a gish, cleric, or druid would totally prepare three slots of dispel magic just to prevent dispels under this. They couldn't do that before.

"fuck tons" of enemies don't have dispel magic as an at will SLA. To go through the Monster Manual, the following enemies have it:
* Nightcrawler
* Nightwalker
* Astral Deva
* Planetar
* Solar
* Marut
* Zelekhut
* Ghaele
* Titan
* Avoral
* Babau
* Balor
* Glabrezu
* Nalfeshnee
* Pit Fiend

Total number: 15.
Number of monsters in the Monster Manual: About 410.
Percentage of the Monster Manual with dispel magic or greater dispel magic as an at-will spell-like ability: Approximately 3.65%. I might have miscounted by a couple, I'll be happy to call it 4% as a conservative estimate.

It's certainly a danger to spellcasters if they have Combat Reflexes, but I wouldn't call that a fuck ton of monsters.

You're not using Tome AoO rules? How many enemies get to cast a targeted dispel more than once per round anyways? Dropping an immediate action and rolling a 2 or higher to keep all your buffs is still winning the action economy.

Edit: Just checked the Duskblade spell list, their first dispel magic effect is a 5th-level spell. Not really dippable, that.

Your rule is unclear. You say 'spellcasters' can use AoOs to counter magic that effects them or their square without a dispel check or mentioning they need to actually have dispel magic and spend a slot.

Requiring them to actually have dispel magic on hand is a lot more sane, but doesn't change the fact that every gish/cleric/druid is going to just fill their third level slots to be immune to offensive magic and dispels on their buffs. They'll just beat shit up with actual damage so they don't have to worry about getting dispelled.

I'll grant that there may be a problem with the way dispel magic works, but I'm not convinced that it's as massive as a problem as you believe it is.

I was using hyperbole, but this is still a kick in the nuts to sorcerers that want to cast baleful polymorph on enemies that don't have insane HD and thus insane fort saves (mostly outsiders).

If you just made counterspell an immediate action you would power up sorcerers, but the Parry Magic thing is just a way for gishes and clerics to laugh at every enemy ever.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:27 am

ubernoob wrote:Your rule is unclear. You say 'spellcasters' can use AoOs to counter magic that effects them or their square without a dispel check or mentioning they need to actually have dispel magic and spend a slot.

I see where we're missing each other now. You are mistaken a bit -- you have to expend a spell slot of equal or higher level to actually counter the spell in addition to hitting with the AoO, unless you use dispel magic.

That said, I do think on review that a simple dispel is a little too good -- I added in a clause that you must still pass the caster level check if you use it to counter.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:45 am

Personally, my goal in trying to fix dispelling has two goals:

1) Remove stupid CL checks. Making 30 of these is dumb as shit, especially when most of the time they either 3/4ths succeed (Dragon) or 3/4ths fail (BBEG).

2) Make it so that one Greater Dispell can't strip like all of your buffs.

So, bottom line, shortest answer, Each spell dispels X buffs or curses, and you can name the buffs you want gone, if you know they are there.

It's not good, it doesn't make dispelling cool and iconic. It just sucks slightly less.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:29 am

I'm a little confused by your post, Kaelik -- I wasn't attempting to fix the workings of dispel magic at all.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:03 am

Surgo wrote:I'm a little confused by your post, Kaelik -- I wasn't attempting to fix the workings of dispel magic at all.

Then you deserve to burn in hell for trying to change counterspelling without changing the shit that does counterspelling.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:08 pm

The mechanics of dispel magic that you're actually complaining about, and counterspelling, have no interaction. They just happen to be on the same spell.

Really, you are just completely incoherent right now.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:19 pm

Surgo wrote:The mechanics of dispel magic that you're actually complaining about, and counterspelling, have no interaction. They just happen to be on the same spell.

And yet, any time you counterspell, you will be using Dispel Magic, so without direct interaction, they have a huge effect on each other.

Great you want to power up gishes, or nerf gishes, or whatever, No one fucking cares. Fix the actual dispel system before you make Dispel and Greater Dispel super mandatory by making them immediate actions.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:37 pm

So your comments have absolutely nothing to do with the rules presented here? Okay then.

For Valor · Post by **For Valor** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:53 pm

God... Kaelik has to be my favorite person on this site...

In other news, I'm a little worried about the system... I mean, outsiders get full BAB and they're the ones who run around with at-will dispels. Fighting outsiders is a lot harder under these rules... or at least a lot for counterspell-intensive.

And what about wands of dispel/greater dispel?

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:12 pm

Spell-like abilities aren't the same thing as spellcasting. Outsiders, even with it at-will, can only counterspell once a round (that's how many immediate actions they have).

That said, the rules for using dispel magic are going to see an update...watch this space.

For Valor · Post by **For Valor** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:25 am

I understand you're concept, now. It makes sense. Theoretically, a Wiz or Sorc could dispel up to 3 spells (2 AoOs, 1 immediate action) w/o combat reflexes, right?

And I'm watching...

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:32 pm

Check the wiki link, we brought down the power of dispel.

And you are correct.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:27 pm

Surgo wrote:Check the wiki link, we brought down the power of dispel.

And you are correct.

I see... Absolutely no nerf to dispel magic whatsoever. Also, it's not a nerf that it needs, but genuinely different mechanics.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:50 pm

I meant more in the context of what I had already done. Originally Dispel Magic was entirely changed to an immediate action casting time; this removes that.

I'm not attempting to touch the mechanics of Dispel Magic at all with this variant rule -- that's a different job for a different rule.

For Valor · Post by **For Valor** » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:51 am

that looks good to me; now I think we should do stuff w/Kaelik and rewrite dispel and it's big brother.

Kaelik, what were you suggesting?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:48 am

For Valor wrote:that looks good to me; now I think we should do stuff w/Kaelik and rewrite dispel and it's big brother.

Kaelik, what were you suggesting?

"Pick a number of active spell effects up to 1/3 your caster level (round up) to dispel." Roll a single dispel check at a +4 bonus and if you succeed then all those effects are dispelled if not, fuck you because you wasted an action.*

*written after drinking

The Gaming Den

Some new counterspelling rules

Some new counterspelling rules

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