Math and Rage: Obama update

[RobbyPants]

In Indianapolis. I have a stay at home wife, a mortgage, car payment (other car is paid off), wife's student loans, a 18 month old and another baby on the way. Am doing fine with well under $50k/year.

Yeah, $50K a year would be fine in Holland, MI. I'm not sure if the jobs require any college education or not. If not, 50K would be pretty good.

[violence in the media]

We're actually trying to sell the house so we can get into a larger home... though selling it seems to be quite the feat right now. We're probably gonna be stuck here for a while thanks to the craptastic market or until we decide to practically give it away.

I sympathize. We're looking for a new place right now too, but selling our condo simply isn't going to happen. We've only got 50 units in the association and 4 of them have been up for sale for months.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Plus, this is a really bad time to sell real estate. If you can wait out the economic issues until the boom years hit again, selling will be no problem and you'll get way more money than if you sell now.

[erik]

Yeah, now is a crappy time to sell. Sad thing is that the economy and housing market are both unlikely to rebound anytime soon either.

So if it comes to it in a year or so we will probably wind up selling our house for a lot less so that we can buy another house on the cheap. If we're still stuck then that will be because there are plenty of bigger houses for cheaper.

[RobbyPants]

I'm in the weird situation of selling my house and looking to buy one for about 2/3 the price. Although, we're not selling because we can't afford this house, but rather because we want to move back to our home town, and property is just cheaper there.

So, if we do sell in the near future, we'll likely lose more on our sale than we gain by buying a cheaper house in this market, but on the plus side: we're not in a hurry to sell, so we can afford to be a bit more picky.

[Crissa]

It's a great time to buy real estate.

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Oh yeah, if you have money, now is the time to expand. Everyone is desperate for business, you can get a deal these days.

'Course, that means the pie that available for regular jagoffs will be smaller when the economy recovers, but this is how Americans like it, so whatever.

[Crissa]

Our mortgage is under $1200. Which is less than comparable rent around here. So yes, if you've saved eight thousand dollars somewhere, and a steady income, it's doable. We used savings bonds (our entire lot) and a gift from my mom and my personal savings to do it. Of course, having a home here (even renting one!) was a dream we didn't think was achievable just a year ago.

If you're selling, what you look for is what has moved and price accordingly. Many places that aren't moving have some reason not to; low price to sqft, strings attached, they don't qualify for FHA, etc. There's a house at the bottom of our street that's been for sale longer than the house we bought six months ago: Because they want $100K more and it's half the size. There's others we know about nearby that fail some inspection or other. If you don't need to push the market value, selling is fine.

Which is why it's so bad to buy into a heated market. It locks you into a bad place, where selling is bad. If we'd bought three years ago, no only would we have needed a non-FHA to buy this place, so the down payment would've been eight times more, the mortgage would have cost three to five times more a month! Can you imagine paying $3500K a month for 750 sqft and two parking spots? And renting the same was half that! And this house is negative on luxuries, an apartment at half would've had a pool, a view, and within a block of a bus stop. It was stupid to buy.

Nothing personal, but California is an entity unto itself. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but I am saying that it is so far removed from the rest of the American experience that it might as well be a different nation entirely.

Except, more people live in areas like California than live in areas like you do. Urban and coastal states dominate the population of the country.

So don't do the real-americans thing.

...but there's no way the US would be able to float $1T/yr for five years in stimulus. The non-catastrophic upper ceiling on debt levels are the subject of argumentation between people better at this than me, but maxing it the fuck out in a game of economic chicken is pretty risky by any measure.

And the United States isn't anywhere near that level of debt. Interest on our debt is lower than at any time in my life... So we should totally take advantage of that.

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

Nothing personal, but California is an entity unto itself. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but I am saying that it is so far removed from the rest of the American experience that it might as well be a different nation entirely.

Except, more people live in areas like California than live in areas like you do. Urban and coastal states dominate the population of the country.

So don't do the real-americans thing.

He's not doing the real americas thing. He is saying California is weird compared to everyone else, he probably includes Maine to Washington in that everyone else.

And frankly, the Second most Populas state agrees with "Real America" talk, so it's not like Real America Talk is an Urban vs Rural thing either.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Except, more people live in areas like California than live in areas like you do. Urban and coastal states dominate the population of the country.

So don't do the real-americans thing.

That doesn't address my points. I am saying that California is completely different than the rest of the country to the point of it practically being another country. The population of California isn't a factor in that assertion.

And I live in a state that's both coastal, and mostly urban. Whose population density is only about 20% lower surrounded by some of the most densely populated states, within an hour's drive the the most dense and urban coastal state.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So if you're poor, expect more of the same, except my experience has been I have to now deal with a lot of former middle-class people that bitch CONSTANTLY about how horrible being poor is. Hey dipshit, you didn't give a dead moose's last SHIT about poor people when you were wiping your ass with 20's, munch on my taint.

I'm not saying that it's okay or it excuses it or anything, but American middle-class people are continually taught from day one to look down on poor people; whether it's pity or revulsion, middle-class people are excessively fed bullshit about the underclass. You have Welfare Queens, you have Bumfights, you have Chris Rock desperately trying to separate 'poor' blacks from 'rich' blacks, you have people being fed lies about how the poor commit much more crime than the middle/upper class while being taught that white collar crime 'isn't that bad', so on.

[K]

Living income directly relates to cost of living for your area.

So in you live in a borderline 3rd world country like Frank, $5K US a year can be a decent living with the exchange rate and everything. Several places in the US like Texas are also very affordable, and with $100K you can get a really nice house.

Some places are not affordable. In a major city in California, a decent house can run for $700K. The mayor of San Francisco made a comment that the poverty level of his city was 50K a year, meaning that anything below that and you might not be able to afford food.... and this is a city where car ownership is unnecessary.

Basically, the best plan is to work in a high-income/high cost of living place and then retire in a low cost of living spot.

[K]

I'm not saying that it's okay or it excuses it or anything, but American middle-class people are continually taught from day one to look down on poor people; whether it's pity or revulsion, middle-class people are excessively fed bullshit about the underclass. You have Welfare Queens, you have Bumfights, you have Chris Rock desperately trying to separate 'poor' blacks from 'rich' blacks, you have people being fed lies about how the poor commit much more crime than the middle/upper class while being taught that white collar crime 'isn't that bad', so on.

The middle class exists on the promise of someday being upper class and the fear of falling into the lower class. Considering that the middle class is the backbone of our tax-base, their angst and hope can be considered the core of our economy.

This is why the disappearing middle class is a big problem. The poor have nothing to tax, and the wealthy get tax breaks and just engage in wholesale tax evasion.... meaning that only the middle class is around to support the government and economy.

[mean_liar]

Basically, the best plan is to work in a high-income/high cost of living place and then retire in a low cost of living spot.

SOP from what I've seen - my parents have a house an Atlanta exurb and it's cheaper for the company fly my father back-and-forth to LA weekly and pay for an apartment there than it is to pay him the cost-of-living adjustment he'd be due if he and my mom actually moved there. There's a good number of people in the neighborhood from all over the US, but predominantly from high cost-of-living places.

[K]

The new Compact Power plant is expected eventually to employ at least 300 people.

151,400,000 / 300 = $504,666

So that's half a million of our tax dollars spent per job created? Seriously?!?

The idea is that in 30, 50, or 100 years that factory will still be there, so the initial investment will be repayed several times.

That initial money is also supporting construction at a time when the construction industry is going tits up in a wholesale fashion, so the actual number of jobs is:

number of construction workers hired to built it + (number employed * number of years the plant operates)

So we are looking at probably 400 workers for five years to build the plant, and then 300 workers indefinitely. And we kept some small part of construction industry in business when companies are bidding at cost or even below cost (or just failing outright for lack of bids).

[mean_liar]

Most industrial construction is pretty easy unless you're doing a massive petrochemical plant - commercial building construction tends to be more difficult and time-consuming. I figure it'd be up and running in under three years.

And construction companies don't bid under cost unless they know they're looking at a cake job - either an owner without savvy representation the contractor knows they can screw or one with deep pockets who's dangling an even bigger project in the near future (where they'll recoup costs). There are mass layoffs in architecture and construction management right now.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

So if you're poor, expect more of the same, except my experience has been I have to now deal with a lot of former middle-class people that bitch CONSTANTLY about how horrible being poor is. Hey dipshit, you didn't give a dead moose's last SHIT about poor people when you were wiping your ass with 20's, munch on my taint.

I'm not saying that it's okay or it excuses it or anything, but American middle-class people are continually taught from day one to look down on poor people; whether it's pity or revulsion, middle-class people are excessively fed bullshit about the underclass. You have Welfare Queens, you have Bumfights, you have Chris Rock desperately trying to separate 'poor' blacks from 'rich' blacks, you have people being fed lies about how the poor commit much more crime than the middle/upper class while being taught that white collar crime 'isn't that bad', so on.

Oh, I'm aware. A devout friend of mine left the church he and his family have went to for decades in utter disgust because the pastor started saying that being poor was a curse from God, and that if you "only" gave the church 10% of your income it was too much. If you couldn't give than much you had to get a second job and go without food so you could, and literally had prayers you could do to get more wealth (along with pie charts stating the percent your income would rise if you did them correctly).

It's sad, but no one wants to see a poor person succeed at anything.

[K]

And construction companies don't bid under cost unless they know they're looking at a cake job - either an owner without savvy representation the contractor knows they can screw or one with deep pockets who's dangling an even bigger project in the near future (where they'll recoup costs). There are mass layoffs in architecture and construction management right now.

I don't know about your area, but CA construction is tanking super hard. My stepdad is in management in underground construction, and the news he's getting says that companies are either dying outright or bidding at cost or below cost in an effort to still have a company when the recession ends and construction picks back up.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I wonder if people will be smart enough so that when the double-dip recession comes from the Democrats not taking things far enough they won't mindlessly turn to their opponents whose response is 'more of the same'.

Probably not. The illusion of prosperity is more important than the reality of prosperity. It feels like I'm sharing a budget with fucking Blanche DuBois.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Lago, Americans are retarded monkeys. They already are blaming the democrats for the recession. There is no hope for our country. Anyone who is capable of leaving needs to do so now.

[Ganbare Gincun]

Lago, Americans are retarded monkeys. They already are blaming the democrats for the recession. There is no hope for our country. Anyone who is capable of leaving needs to do so now.

But where to go? And won't other countries get burned just as badly by a global depression?

[erik]

I would move to Canada if not for ties to local family and friends.

[Josh_Kablack]

The idea is that in 30, 50, or 100 years that factory will still be there, so the initial investment will be repayed several times.

I had a reply written, but honestly the view from my window rebuts that unfounded optimism better than mere words ever could.

[K]

The idea is that in 30, 50, or 100 years that factory will still be there, so the initial investment will be repayed several times.

I had a reply written, but honestly the view from my window rebuts that unfounded optimism better than mere words ever could.

Well, I didn't say that the reality would meet the expectation.

In truth, battery factories are among the most dangerous and toxic environments and battery manufacturing is one of those industries that gets farmed out to nations with poor or no environmental protection laws. This means I expect that this battery factory will run for ten years and then cost several hundred million to clean up the toxic waste.

Also you'll get heavy metal poisoning in your groundwater.

The system isn't broken, but this particular application kinda sucks. They would have been better off making factories that make frozen burritos (which weirdly is a successful industry in the US, and not cost effective to do in Mexico).

[Crissa]

Hopefully, these batteries will not need to use any heavy metals.

I sure could use your hands, K, but I couldn't pay you ^-^ All my neighbors have been saying it's been tough to compete for jobs right now. Strangely, every other neighbor seems to be in the construction industry.

-Crissa