Stealth Buffing

[Leress]

I apologize for the thread sidetrack, but I just gotta hear the details on this one. Even if it is through a PM.

Here

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

Unarmed Strike is a listed weapon in the weapons chart. It's not listed as a weapon the monk knows.

The Improved Unarmed strike feat doesn't give proficiency.

[Psychic Robot]

Monks are technically not proficient with their own unarmed strikes. Though nobody really cares.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Unarmed strikes are simple weapons.

EDIT: As far as magic items go, I'd make up some house rule stuff.

Boxing Gloves of Monk-Fu: Your unarmed strikes gain a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to Wisdom modifier, and you are treated as one size category larger for calculating the damage of your unarmed strikes.
Robes of the Still Mind: A monk wearing these robes gains a +6 armor bonus to AC.
Amulet of Motherfucking Dire Tiger Polymorph: Isn't this what broke Da'vain's game?

[Prak]

yeah, monks have a very specific list of what they're proficient in, and it doesn't include unarmed strikes.

[NineInchNall]

I ninjaed you all.

I win.

So nyah.

[hogarth]

Monks are technically not proficient with their own unarmed strikes.

Pathfinder monks are.

"All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race."

[Prak]

yeah, that's really the least you can do with unarmed strikes.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Persistent polymorph items are a 'great' way to get players that are lagging behind up to stuff. If you flavor it something like 'this sword lets you channel the sword of an ancient angel hero' they won't even notice.

Failing that. Give the monk player an amulet that lets him polymorph into a tiger. There's at least one case where that worked so well that the player didn't even notice it.

[Judging__Eagle]

We need to find a link to the post that Da Vanne... or w/e their name was, wrote.

They got utterly mauled in the responses.

[Koumei]

Mauled, you say? Like what a tiger monk would do to someone?

Damnit, I was going to suggest an amulet of the dire tiger, too. It's become that epic a tale.

[Psychic Robot]

The third edition Monks rock. Why? Ask yourself that when you are drowning orcs in an underground lake. When you are outrunning horses and grappling with Earth Elementals. When you tumble past a Giant and set up the party's THREE Halfling Rogues with their Sneak Attacks.

As I repeat over and over, it's not about numbers, it's about schticks. Anybody who's played a Monk and enjoyed a Monk will know the Monk rocks. The same as every other character in every other game.

And what does equipment have to do with anything anyway? How do you even know you're gonna be able to get that suit of Celestail Full-Plate or even that normal Suit of Full-Plate?

My Monk picked up a Pendant that allows him to Polymorph into a Tiger at will. When the big fights come, I usually leap past all the heavily armed fighters and change into a Tiger in mid air to stomp the spellcaster at the back who's blowing chunks out of the party.

This may not be a legal piece of kit, but it's now part of the character, and that's what makes it fun. The fact his a Monk is only part of the story. The tales about my Monk (called Da' Vane, the true bearer of my SN) are endless. From fall out of 3rd story windows after failing my Will save vs. Tasha's Hideous Laughter, to swallowing another PC after he get Polymorphed into a Mouse. These are all reasons why MY Monk doesn't suck.

This is the answer to Frank's question - Why Monks?

You realize that item is vastly more powerful than anything the DMG suggests that you have access to, right? And furthermore, that it is a nonstandard item in the extreme?

If your DM decided to give you that, and your monk did not then unbalance the game, then my point is proven. Monks need house-rules to compete. House adjustments to the class, or house adjustments to the magical items the monk carries are both house rules.

[Prak]

out of curiosity, what exactly is broken about the dire tiger talisman? (I mean, other than the generally abusable spell polymorph) On the face of it seems perfectly fine, if possibly rather expensive and thus high level.

Edit: I'm starting to see the problems... starting with the need for a 16 caster level on the item and the character to have at least 16 HD...

Though that doesn't, necessarily, make it an unreasonable item... it just means it's 128000g for at will polymorph. I'd round off to 125000 for the form limitation...

But then, i also probably wouldn't make it at will if I were the gm handing it out...

[Username17]

Yes, he got at-will benefits from an 8th level spell as a 7th level character and was still roughly on par with the rest of the characters. Game, set, and match.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Hmmm. I wonder which monks sucked more: 3.0E monks or 3.5E monks?

I personally think it was 3.5E monks, by a tiny hair. And that's because 3.0E monks could use animated tower shields and weren't fucked as hard by damage resistance. 3.0E monks also came out before Complete Warrior nerfed a bunch of monk stuff. Finally, the OA feat variants actually made monks decent for the first two levels if you were willing to wield a three-section staff. You were marginally better off than a single-classed ranger anyway if you were able to snag ridiculous stats at first level and some mage armor potions.

3.5E monks had a marginally better flurry-of-blow scheme, though. They don't have the advantage in feat selection though, since the alternate-monk feats blow.

[Meikle641]

The rest of the party is about as optimized as they know how, which for the PF adventure path is actually sufficient (lots of classed NPCs). If I 'happened' to drop a +5 amulet of mighty fists, they're certainly not smart enough to try and sell it. Hell, just a +5 amulet would actually put him slightly ahead of the rogue in offensive capability (inspire courage does more for him than the rogue).

I'd suggest the Necklace of Natural Weapons from Savage Species rather than the amulet. It's 600 (base) with the usual weapon enhancement bonus costs. Lets you add normal weapon effects and enhancement bonuses to a natural attack at a much lower cost than the Amulet from core.

[Prak]

except a monk's unarmed attack (outside of tome) isn't technically a natural weapon. I have a friend who rules it as such, but I personally think he misinterprets.

That said, just make it a god damned slam attack... solves a few issues.

[Meikle641]

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

I'm not seeing the problem here, Prak.

[Prak]

ah, ok, I misremembered, I guess... nevermind me...

[Koumei]

Hmmm. I wonder which monks sucked more: 3.0E monks or 3.5E monks?

I might be talking out my arse here, but I recall a wealth of handy monk things buried away in 3.0 splats. Including/especially OA. Something that lets you take an extra 5' swindle per turn (aside from that psionic Prestige Class that also lets you do that and also hover off the ground). The ability to, with a Tumble check, turn your 5' swindle into a 10' swindle (combine the two and now your free movement per round is equal to a dwarf's move action).

For Good Monks (alignmentwise, not "effective monks"), there were three different "Your _____ attacks deal extra damage against evil" feats - one for natural weapons, one for manufactured and one for monk's unarmed strike. So you take all three.

If the game starts above level 1 you could even put serious consideration into the Feral template (3.0), which works okay for Monks. Then find a way to get Fire Resistance 1 (thus, immunity to lava and by extension molten metal), dip your fists/claws in boiling adamantine, then go and get them enhanced (because they now count as masterworked) etc. etc.

Actually I think the lava immunity thing is still there in 3.5, but still. You probably had more weird little rule things from OA, and random feats and shit that 3.0 Monk was bet... was less shit. Though if you're using backwards-compatible mode, then your 3.5 monk can do all that and also take Superior Unarmed Strike.

Also, seeing as the way to make a monk work involves doing hilarious bullshit and trying to jack your unarmed damage to retardedland, I suggest, after getting him the metal hands, finding a way to pick up Cold Resist 10 and then covering his magical adamantine fists in brown mold.

[virgil]

It'll definitely take a bit of finagling and obvious house-ruling to get it to work right, but it too is something to consider. Pathfinder's devs made it so that a monk using flurry of blows (which gives him TWF and full BaB) cannot include any natural attacks other than their unarmed strike in their routine, and polymorph works closer to Tome's buff-style polymorph but with more book digging.

[Josh_Kablack]

. He specifically and explicitly told me he will never accept any conclusion or creation (regardless of validity) of Frank or K because they're assholes.

By that logic they should disagree with most published game authors, not to mention the heliocentric model of our solar system.

[magnuskn]

. He specifically and explicitly told me he will never accept any conclusion or creation (regardless of validity) of Frank or K because they're assholes.

By that logic they should disagree with most published game authors, not to mention the heliocentric model of our solar system.

I'd guess they dislike K and Frank because the two of them make a point of being obnoxious assholes. Well, K does. Frank just... explodes sometimes. ^^

BTW, which Adventure Path are we talking about?

[K]

. He specifically and explicitly told me he will never accept any conclusion or creation (regardless of validity) of Frank or K because they're assholes.

By that logic they should disagree with most published game authors, not to mention the heliocentric model of our solar system.

I'd guess they dislike K and Frank because the two of them make a point of being obnoxious assholes. Well, K does. Frank just... explodes sometimes. ^^

BTW, which Adventure Path are we talking about?

I don't think I ever make a point of being an asshole, but I do respond in kind when someone pushes. I don't like bullies.

I mean, I have a long fuse, but there is dynamite at the end of it.

[TheFlatline]

Then find a way to get Fire Resistance 1 (thus, immunity to lava and by extension molten metal), dip your fists/claws in boiling adamantine, then go and get them enhanced (because they now count as masterworked) etc. etc.

How the does fire resistance 1 give you immunity to lava? Wouldn't that be fire immunity? Last time I checked, lava doesn't only inflict 1 point of damage...

Unless I'm remembering things wrong.

However, dipping your hands in adamantine creates it's own issues. Such as... you now have a nigh-unbreakable shell coating your fists. Good luck opening your hand to eat/wipe your ass/jerk off ever again.

[K]

Then find a way to get Fire Resistance 1 (thus, immunity to lava and by extension molten metal), dip your fists/claws in boiling adamantine, then go and get them enhanced (because they now count as masterworked) etc. etc.

How the does fire resistance 1 give you immunity to lava? Wouldn't that be fire immunity? Last time I checked, lava doesn't only inflict 1 point of damage...

Unless I'm remembering things wrong.

However, dipping your hands in adamantine creates it's own issues. Such as... you now have a nigh-unbreakable shell coating your fists. Good luck opening your hand to eat/wipe your ass/jerk off ever again.

Lava Effects

Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round.

Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round).

An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava.

Weird rule, but whatever.

[ubernoob]

However, dipping your hands in adamantine creates it's own issues. Such as... you now have a nigh-unbreakable shell coating your fists. Good luck opening your hand to eat/wipe your ass/jerk off ever again.

You can always hire someone to do that for you