Anatomy of Failed Design: Exalted

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Lago PARANOIA
Invincible Overlord
Posts: 10555
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FatR wrote:As a side note, the main problem with Aizen is profileration of anime discussions of Internet, that allows whining about truly popular series to accumulate into critical mass. Shonen has a long-standing tradition of making BBEGs that simply are in different category from everyone else, until the hero gets the next upgrade, at least. See: Freeza or Sensui. Asakura Hao or Hanma Yujiro have, so far, far better records of being and remaining totally overpowered for their series. Aizen is just better known.
The medium has matured over time and people have higher expectations.

That's natural, though. Take video games for instance; even accounting for design and programming limitations, we put up with shit back then that there's no way we would now. See the early King's Quests for example.

Same thing for shonen. Dragonball and Fist of the North Star get a pass on a lot of elements just because the genre was immature. A LOT of complaints about modern shonen (marginalization of women, making the hero a standard book-dumb slightly-dimwitted everybody, ridiculous plot twists, constant power and plot-levelling, the shrinking of a large cast) apply even moreso than early ones. Naruto is a genuinely bad manga, but a lot of the things that make it bad nowadays wouldn't have gotten noticed if it was published in an earlier era.

... that's a good thing, mind you. Peoples' standards and tastes are supposed to evolve over time and its the duty of the writer to match them. Bischoff's reign of WCW fell into the same trap. His methods were good enough to get his foot into the door and even overtake WWF, but one of the reasons WCW was doomed to fail (even discounting backstage politics and financial mismanagement) was because they were resorting to the same old shit in 1999-2000 that that they were at the NWO era.

Aizen is the same way. Yes, he continues the long tradition of vanilla super-invincible villains such as himself but the problem is that we've seen this happen so often that people can predict what's going to happen ahead of time and it sucks out the tension. Oda (One Piece), Kishimoto (Naruto), and Arakawa (FMA) use these kinds of villains too but they're savvy enough to add some things on top of it.


In Oda's case, he cycles through villains quickly and makes them WEIRD. Most of his villains have the same spectra of motivations and attitudes, but they don't linger around enough to become a problem. This does have its disadvantages-a LOT of villains caught fire with the audience but were discarded before they could be really used-but also advantages. Arakawa simply doesn't use her Vanilla Invincible Villain; the plot revolves more around Father's much more entertaining subordinates. Kishimoto opts to humanize his Invincible Villains, which has some very mixed successes (though have been erring in the direction of stupid lately). Sometimes he gives us a Gaara and it's great. But most of the time he gives us a Nagato. The only Vanilla Invincible Villain he used was Orochimaru and that character was specifically used as a plot device and a vehicle for the manga's themes rather than a character in its own right.

Sousuke Aizen just sucks. He's a Vanilla Invincible Villain played painfully straight. He doesn't even have an understandable motivation like Sensui.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Lago PARANOIA
Invincible Overlord
Posts: 10555
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

So, after White Wolf and 4th Edition D&D goes under, what happens to rpg.net?

Do we get to brag and gloat and act insufferable? I'm totally up for some of that.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
User avatar
mean_liar
Duke
Posts: 2187
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Boston

Post by mean_liar »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Do we get to brag and gloat and act insufferable? I'm totally up for some of that.
Too late.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

It will go the way of EnWorld. That is to say that since 4th edition D&D folds by a new edition of D&D coming out, they'll just be equally insufferable about defending that edition. And they will act like they were always against the badwrongfun of 4e, even though it will be patently obvious from the archives that this is bullshit.

-Username17
FatR
Duke
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:36 am

Post by FatR »

As about White Wolf, the surest sign of them going under is not even nearly-nonexistent release schedule with half-year delays, but their webside and webstore still being total shit, despite the alleged attempt of switching to sales purely through Internet. And despite being owned by a company that has talent in this area.

As about anime, I actually mostly enjoy crazy plot twists and regular power-ups. I'll withold my judgement about Aizen, until the direction of plot development and the extent of bullshit in his latest speeches is clear.

As about gloating, fuck yes.
User avatar
Meikle641
Duke
Posts: 1315
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 8:24 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Post by Meikle641 »

FatR wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote: Sounds like there's a story behind that!
See this thread:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=510652
Wow, I read and skimmed that thread. You said very little that was all that bad, but maybe I'm being corrupted by the Den. Glad I don't post there.
User avatar
mean_liar
Duke
Posts: 2187
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Boston

Post by mean_liar »

It was inflammatory given the general context of the thread - I think FatR was the first to come out with the spite and the razors - but it was way short of what I'd consider to be bannable. Posting around here too often will color your internet socializations, no doubt.

I love the setting of Exalted so long as you don't stare too closely; as a cosmology it's interesting and as a backdrop for awesome it's more than suitable. But dear lord, the mechanics suck.

I'm grateful that there's such a hateful group of ex-Exalted players for the insight they provide on the game's execution.

I still think it'd be do-able with MnM as the system.
RiotGearEpsilon
Knight
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:39 am
Location: Cambridge, Massachusetts

Post by RiotGearEpsilon »

mean_liar wrote:I love the setting of Exalted so long as you don't stare too closely.
I love staring too closely, finding the contradictions, and seeing how many interesting ways I can file down the connections to make them fit.
FatR
Duke
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:36 am

Post by FatR »

Well, I know that linking threads that made you laugh or cry is not cocher anymore, so I avoided, say, linking lulzworthy reactions on the idiocy of latest and probably final Exalted supplement (Return of the Scarlet Empess) and even more lulzworthy inter-forum attemps at damage control undertaken by that weasel hls.

But this is so completely fucking awesome, that I cannot fight the urge anymore:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=529011

See the post #40. Now be aware of the following:

1)The pack leader of WW bitches Stephenls is a mod (though this is obvious from his sig anyway). In fact, I owe my topic ban on rpg.net to him, you can see the details here above.

2)The current "canon" on the topic he defends is 95% Second Edition retcon and 5% authors not giving a fuck (I can elaborate later, if anyone cares - am feeling somewhat guilty about pure finger-pointing, but have no time right now).

3)The essay he criticises is lightyears better thought out than the current writeup of the same NPCs, simply because once it is established that the said NPCs is irredeemably 100% evil by nature and only exists in general to be a mechanically-unsurmountable obsctacle to PCs, you don't really give a fuck about the rest of its personaility.

Tl,dr: This is the level of insanity in the treatment of the fans (and fans that promote their fucking game by posting massive attention-attracting essays on it) that I didn't think was possible.
Last edited by FatR on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.
A Man In Black
Duke
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:33 am

Post by A Man In Black »

Could we get a tl;dr on that?
FatR
Duke
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:36 am

Post by FatR »

Heck, I'll just provide the whole quote:

"Fair enough. Just be aware that Mage taught me and a number of other prominent White Wolf posters that ideological division within a fan community creates poisonous social conflicts, and so we work to eradicate deviant takes on setting elements such as this to prevent them from causing long-standing arguments or, worse, leaking into canon via author persuasion or the elevation of fans to authorial positions. So it's not a matter of "nothing more needs to be said" -- my position is this take on Cecelyne is both bad in itself and potentially harmful to the Exalted fan community as a whole if allowed to gain any traction. By championing it, you set yourself as my enemy." (c) Stephenls

EDIT: As a side note, weren't the conflict of ideologies the main fucking point of oMage? Is he stupid enough to not draw a connection between this and RL Mage flamewars?
Last edited by FatR on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Lago PARANOIA
Invincible Overlord
Posts: 10555
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FatR wrote: Well, I know that linking threads that made you laugh or cry is not cocher anymore, so I avoided, say, linking lulzworthy reactions on the idiocy of latest and probably final Exalted supplement (Return of the Scarlet Empess) and even more lulzworthy inter-forum attemps at damage control undertaken by that weasel hls.
Could you throw me a PM?


I don't get the whole Autocthulhu thing. Why are people saying that because he's an unlikeable jerk he deserved to have all of that stuff happen to him?
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
User avatar
Crissa
King
Posts: 6720
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Santa Cruz

Post by Crissa »

Links to good and bad information are still appreciated.

It's just... We have to remember not to egg on people like Roy who can't help themselves.

-Crissa
User avatar
Orion
Prince
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Orion »

What's astonishing is that SLS is still only the second-biggest asshole in that thread. The OP is a real piece of work.
FatR
Duke
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:36 am

Post by FatR »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: I don't get the whole Autocthulhu thing. Why are people saying that because he's an unlikeable jerk he deserved to have all of that stuff happen to him?
Various reasons. Mainly the retcon cognitive dissonance, I suspect. Because I don't know (and don't care) what Holden retconned into 2E Autobots book, but in 1E the worst stuff that happened to him was being treated as a servant. He had the highest mortal bodycount of any Primordial (probably because others were too busy shooting crack to do anything with the mortal world, but still, he was the only one with a genocide under his belt, and the only other actual example of the Primordial interaction in the whole edition was beneficial to mortals). In short, while he had an understandable reason for his grudge, he still was a total rat-bastard and his bastardry (such as inventing the material that serves as artificial Hell) got noticeably more attention than his grievances. Also, he was a disliked Sue, as basically everything of importance in the setting was revelaled to be his invention in late 1E-early 2E.

2E, with its "White Hats vs. Black Hats" party line no doubt tried to make him unquestioningly sympathetic and added abuse against him and shit.
Last edited by FatR on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Hieronymous Rex
Journeyman
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:23 am

Post by Hieronymous Rex »

FatR wrote: But this is so completely fucking awesome, that I cannot fight the urge anymore:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=529011
Out of curiosity, speaking as one who is unfamiliar with much of the setting, why do people hate on Autocthon? From a quick look up, all I can tell about him is:

>Creates creating.
>Doesn't join the Primordial Dick Factions.
>Realizes that something is amiss (the Great Curse).
>Retreats to a demiplane, with some others along for the ride, to wait it out.
>Has robo-cancer.
User avatar
mean_liar
Duke
Posts: 2187
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Boston

Post by mean_liar »

People hate Autocthon because without the Exalted twist on things he's essentially Prometheus and a good guy, and therefore worthy of derision.
Lago PARANOIA
Invincible Overlord
Posts: 10555
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Oh, wow, people HATE the Return of the Scarlet Empress plot.

For people who don't keep up with Exalted, tell me, what's the deal with that?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Post by Josh_Kablack »

"Fair enough. Just be aware that Mage taught me and a number of other prominent White Wolf posters that ideological division within a fan community creates poisonous social conflicts, and so we work to eradicate deviant takes on setting elements such as this to prevent them from causing long-standing arguments or, worse, leaking into canon via author persuasion or the elevation of fans to authorial positions. " (c) Stephenls
:rofl:

This is doubleplus extra funny to those of us who have had Geoffrey C. Grabowski flip over our gaming table and storm out of the campaign over "ideological divisions".
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
User avatar
Psychic Robot
Prince
Posts: 4607
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 10:47 pm

Post by Psychic Robot »

This is doubleplus extra funny to those of us who have had Geoffrey C. Grabowski flip over our gaming table and storm out of the campaign over "ideological divisions".
This is going to require elaboration.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Post by Josh_Kablack »

In fairness, he owed me for the choke hold at a prior Con.

And by way of explanation, I'm just gonna say that Geoff is pretty firmly PRO-argument.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
A Man In Black
Duke
Posts: 1040
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:33 am

Post by A Man In Black »

Josh_Kablack wrote: :rofl:

This is doubleplus extra funny to those of us who have had Geoffrey C. Grabowski flip over our gaming table and storm out of the campaign over "ideological divisions".
Image

(And if you don't read Gunshow, you totally should read at least the Anime Club comics.)
Last edited by A Man In Black on Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
FatR
Duke
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:36 am

Post by FatR »

Hieronymous Rex wrote: >Creates creating.
>Doesn't join the Primordial Dick Factions.
>Realizes that something is amiss (the Great Curse).
>Retreats to a demiplane, with some others along for the ride, to wait it out.
>Has robo-cancer.
I elaborated above. Forgot to mention only that the only awareness of the Great Curse is also a retcon, originally he snuck away because he knew that gods and Exalted will gank him simply for being a Primordial and reminding them of their treachery (and not getting away with this by bedding one of the highest gods and also being a non-entity, as far as anytning in the setting is concerned). As another correction, he created machinery, not creating.


EDIT: But anyway, the difference between what you could find and what was illustrates the main point. There were huge, sweeping retcons all across the setting and during the game's entire life. Autochton didn't even get the worst of it - there are by now, like, four versions of how Exaltation works, for example. That's what makes Stephenls stance truly batshit insane.
Last edited by FatR on Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
FatR
Duke
Posts: 1221
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:36 am

Post by FatR »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Oh, wow, people HATE the Return of the Scarlet Empress plot.

For people who don't keep up with Exalted, tell me, what's the deal with that?
I don't want to read the whole thing, you know?

But judging by the introductory adventure it is actually worse than the old-school oWoD metaplot adventure writing, which I though was hardly possible, and approaches the platonic ideal of fail.

It has following gems, as far as I know, just in the introductory adventure:

1)An NPC who has power, magic, connections, armies, demons, wealth and shit losing the Realm Civil War to an NPC whose only assets are small bunch of mortal troops and the obvious boner someone in the game development has for her.

2)Scarlet Empress as the Infernal puppet is confirmed as the only likely option or at least the main option. Because this is not a twist since forever, the supplement loses major points for not offering an idea people who care haven't already did to death.

3)Sidereals, the established faction - the only faction that is interested in the Creation's well-being and has enough mechanical power to maybe, depending on supplements used, not fold before Deathlords and powerful demons in an instant - going down like total chumps. To the enemy who just marched into the seat of their power in the Heaven (despite being anathema to even those denizens of the Heaven who are not allied with the Sidereals) and slaughtered them.
WW damage control team really tries to make a saving throw on this point (because even the most devoted fans went into raeg mode over this) and make us believe that the full plot will somehow justify this shit. But the point remains, that whomever greenlighted this does not give a shit about the setting consistency and whomever greenlighted this for the introductory adventure has no fucking idea about what remaining Exalted fans think.

4)General plot contrivances that are painfully meant ot give PCs a chance where PCs of the suggested power level obviously have none, more magitech wankery and so on, but it seems those who haven't jumped the ship earlier are accepting of things like this.
User avatar
Josh_Kablack
King
Posts: 5318
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Online. duh

Post by Josh_Kablack »

In hindsight, our idealogical divisions were not nearly so highbrow, but otherwise the comic is spot-on. :tongue:
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Post Reply