Who is left to rebuild the D&D franchise?

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Prak
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Post by Prak »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:I'm saying "what about just a pool of points, they're all the same kind, and each class uses them, so you don't get paladin points and knight points, you just get points and paladin, knight and wizard abilities all use them."
So you're talking Final Fantasy Tactics / Chronotrigger style SP?
Had I ever played either of those, maybe.
Such systems are kind of a lot of bookkeeping. They work OK for CRPGs because the processor subtracts the points for you. They work less well in table top, where a WoF (such as dice or a literal deck of cards) or power charges (like spell prep or eve 4e powers) work a lot better. Having more than 20 or so power points is a real drain.

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what's the book keeping of "I have 20 activation points between my classes that can be used in any way I please"?
hogarth wrote: So it would be slightly weird to have a wizard who recovers spells by getting punched in the face.
You can totally bullshit a reason for that....
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Username17 »

Lago wrote:Meaning that if you wanted to have an excellent-quality translation of a 150k word, RPG book, it would cost you... 30K to translate to Japanese, which means that you'd need to sell about 1.5K books to break even. But really, you should be able to sell six-thousand copies of a D&D book easily--especially if you already paid for ahead of time the high-quality artwork and playtesting. I don't know if it's more expensive to translate things in Russian.
No.

You have to print an ship books to stores. That costs money on a per-book basis. The books are sold to distributors for a fraction of the end-cost, because those guys have to make money too. You don't make 20 bucks a book, it's more like $4. Sales of 1.5k wouldn't even come close to paying for a $30k chinese translation. Your break-even point would be somewhere in the 8000 copies range.

Which for the Chinese market is still chump change. It wasn't that long ago that the MMO with the most players on Earth was available only in Korea. Zhengtu Online and Fantasy Westward Journey have more than 1.5 million people logged in at once during peak hours (perspective: EVE Online has 60,000).

Honestly it just doesn't seem that implausible to get a million PHBs sold that are written in Simplified Chinese. The question is really getting it done, getting it out there, and figuring out a marketing pitch that doesn't in essence say "We bring your ancestors back from the dead."

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Prak
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Post by Prak »

what's the feasibility of, once you've got a translation drafted, printing off a few copies of whatever language, and sending them to players in that region, gratis, in exchange for a quick look through to see if it's comprehensible?
Last edited by Prak on Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Username17 »

Prak_Anima wrote:what's the feasibility of, once you've got a translation drafted, printing off a few copies of whatever language, and sending them to players in that region, gratis, in exchange for a quick look through to see if it's comprehensible?
Well, that kind of thing is nearly "free" in that you're talking about cheap prints and only a few hundred dollars down for a few copies. But... you're talking about delaying things substantially. The longer it takes your investment to pay off, the worse an investment it is. So every week you spend waiting for Chinese neck beards to tell you whether it makes any sense (assuming that you can understand the replies you get back) is a week where you just flushed $30k or more down the toilet and got nothing.

Proofreading is going to happen. And you're even going to be able to get some proofreading for free. But it's not a panacea. Like, at all.

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Post by hogarth »

Prak_Anima wrote:
Such systems are kind of a lot of bookkeeping. They work OK for CRPGs because the processor subtracts the points for you. They work less well in table top, where a WoF (such as dice or a literal deck of cards) or power charges (like spell prep or eve 4e powers) work a lot better. Having more than 20 or so power points is a real drain.

-Username17
what's the book keeping of "I have 20 activation points between my classes that can be used in any way I please"?
I have no idea what Frank is saying about bookkeeping. There are plenty of RPGs where you pay for powers out of a centralized pool of points. Villains & Vigilantes and Champions/HERO are two early examples.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FrankTrollman wrote:So every week you spend waiting for Chinese neck beards to tell you whether it makes any sense (assuming that you can understand the replies you get back) is a week where you just flushed $30k or more down the toilet and got nothing.
Well, it's not like TTRPGs are things like video games or movies where if you wait too long the value of the product stands a good chance of depreciating. Other than allowing pirates a two-week headstart if the .pdfs get leaked, what's the downside if you schedule these things properly?

And yeah, I know that for things like mangos and animes even being a couple of weeks behind cuts into your sales like whoa because of fansubs, but pirates can do fansubs of those things much faster than in an RPG--like the entire script of both seasons of Code Geass inc. credits are slightly shorter than a 4E PHB.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by FatR »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: I don't know if it's more expensive to translate things in Russian.
It's less expensive for technical documents, certainly. Even less expensive for stuff like fiction, as far as I'm aware - that's the main reason the majority of recent Russian translations of the latter still blow (although sometimes the publishers simply don't seem to give a fuck about quality). Anyway, if you want a great translation, average technical translation standards won't suffice. Because these standards aren't exactly stellar, as far as I've interacted with them.
Last edited by FatR on Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Give me a price estimate per word do you think will get you a 'good' and an 'excellent' translation respectively.

By which I mean... I'd consider the translation of the Naruto anime into English for broadcast 'good' while I'd consider the translation of Cowboy Bebop into English 'excellent'.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by FatR »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Give me a price estimate per word do you think will get you a 'good' and an 'excellent' translation respectively.

By which I mean... I'd consider the translation of the Naruto anime into English for broadcast 'good' while I'd consider the translation of Cowboy Bebop into English 'excellent'.
Start from 5 cents/word just for translating/proofreading the text itself and you'll need to make an effort finding a translation team that won't return you some hackwork (this happens here even with cash cow books, supposedly translated by experts, if the publishing house fails to care). It'll cost alot more in countries like Japan, of course.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FatR wrote: Start from 5 cents/word just for translating/proofreading the text itself and you'll need to make an effort finding a translation team that won't return you some hackwork (this happens here even with cash cow books, supposedly translated by experts, if the publishing house fails to care). It'll cost alot more in countries like Japan, of course.
That's expensive, but not prohibitively expensive.

The biggest problem I can think of are finding distributors. This is what really killed the videogame market from growing the pie higher than it could in the 80's (post videogame-crash) and 90's. But it's easier to print books than it is to manufacture and ship videogames.

But seriously, this is like an untapped goldmine here. The 90's WoD and D&D are pretty much the only 'names' in RPGs that have (had) the money for regular decent foreign translations. I know that there are native-language RPGs out there and also that some of them like DSA and Alshard are going to be really hard to unseat. But there's no need to let them run unopposed.

Monster's Den: Book of Dread somehow was able to read my mind. Because check this shit out: http://monstrumgames.com/2010/07/devil-region/


Anyway, hopping back briefly to the D&D comic idea... if I was in charge of that idea, I would use DriveThruRPG.net as my distributor (charging 1,50 per issue) and also give it out for free to D&D subscribers. I wouldn't worry too much about the physical security; you actually want people to pirate it to a limited extent, because it's a form of advertising if the net loss isn't too high.

All this is just pandering to nerds. To be honest, I have no idea how to advertise the idea that D&D's cool to children. The most I can think of is really high-quality production values for the boxed set, but that'll make it too expensive for a 20-dollar price tag. I'd say something about cards but as far as I know the D&D-miniatures thing didn't go over too well.

Maybe you could whore out your license to LEGO? Going back with the previous animation idea... sell the idea to a studio? I really don't know how well this strategy works. D&D has stepped out into the 'cartoon' business at least four times before and except for the first cartoon I can't think of anything that would indicate success to me. Is it because that D&D tried to directly profit from the cartoon so sacrificed production values at the cost of having their 'own' product? Or is it just because no one wants to pick up the idea?

I'd know how I would structure the cartoon to promote the product without falling into the Saturday Morning Advertisement trap however. That part is easy. The hard part is getting people to watch it, pitching it to the studio, and most importantly using it to hawk D&D products.

Fuck, I really wish I knew how Boondocks got an animated adaptation. Oh, well.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Crissa »

Boondocks got money from Cartoon Network.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

How much money?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by malak »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: But seriously, this is like an untapped goldmine here. The 90's WoD and D&D are pretty much the only 'names' in RPGs that have (had) the money for regular decent foreign translations. I know that there are native-language RPGs out there and also that some of them like DSA and Alshard are going to be really hard to unseat. But there's no need to let them run unopposed.
I can only speak about the german translations of D&D, but they were really bad. At least the 3.x ones. A lot of things were translated in a way that created new rules ambiguities, and/or contradicted the original english version. Also, translations take time. Most people who are into RPGs do not want to wait more than a year for a translated version.

What I have seen of 4E (only the 3 core books were translated) seemed to be ok. But there was another problem: Germany (...idiots) has legislation that dictates book prices. By the time the translated versions of the core books were ready, a single core book cost more than the 4e gift set with PH1, DMG1, and MM1.

It all came to a nice ending when Wizards informed the german company that translated the books that they would not renew the contract. After publicly stating at some Con a few weeks before that they would. So the german company was left sitting on piles of unsold 4e books, which they had to pulp, and translations for more books which they already paid for but were not allowed to release.

All this while DSA continued to release a host of materials for their 4th edition and multiple computer games, backed by a large game company that also sells lots of other tabletop games and related stuff.

So, instead of a goldmine, D&D in german is a huge clusterfuck.
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Post by Bova3.5 »

To the OP, we are. Us being the gamers and forum users of this forum (which I am new to), the WotC boards, and GitP games forums as well as any other forums (maybe MTGS for flavor writers?). People like Satyr, Logic Ninja, and Vorpral Tribble. The ones with a lot of successful homebrews to create the game and the min-maxers to comb it for flaws.

The design of the game needs to change. For my perfect 5ed:

-Compatibility with 3.5. One, it is one of the most popular editions (if not the most). Two, it has tons of material that works as a jumping of point for balance (using CarOp experts to find and fix the broken stuff).
-A small $20ish book containing: The basic classes, Mage (Arcane or Divine Spellcaster), Warrior (A Tome of Battle combat type) and Thief (Sneaky type), Archetype monsters like goblins, orcs, and dragons, Traps and Magic Items.
-A system which addresses the critiques of the dugeonomicon (hope I spelled that right) and the Alexandrian. This would be designed with an understanding of economics, ecology and other major sciences. These things should, naturally, never come before good game play but they should not be ignored.

I will add more as I think of them.

Yes it probably won't happen but a guy can dream, right?[/list]
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

malak wrote:Also, translations take time. Most people who are into RPGs do not want to wait more than a year for a translated version.
That's what I figured.

ViZ has been really catching up with their major franchise of Naruto/Bleach translations. They're usually less than a month behind. But they're still slowly losing the arms race against pirates.

So we're facing a double-edged sword here. On the one hand, while translating RPGs needs to be urgent it doesn't need to be so urgent that you're trying to beat fansubbers because a dedicated professional team will do it faster. On the other hand, it does take longer to translate the project.

Anyone who holds the IP for 5E needs to be strictly organized and hit the ground running in order to get this translation business working. You can't be a couple of weeks behind on this.


On the bright side, if you build up a sizable non-English speaking fanbase in another country, it will help to curb piracy in the long run. Gaming is a group project and you can't really do it if only two or three of the people out of a group can read the ENG books.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by malak »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
On the bright side, if you build up a sizable non-English speaking fanbase in another country, it will help to curb piracy in the long run. Gaming is a group project and you can't really do it if only two or three of the people out of a group can read the ENG books.
The problem is that the whole 'cultural imperialism' worked all too well. Everyone who attends university and most of the people interested in nerd culture know english well enough to read books, especially since the situation is similar for movies and TV series. Either get the original dvds (or torrents) or wait a year.
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Post by schpeelah »

A year? You are being generous here. The polish translation of 4E Core is yet to come out. Well, at least it'll be good quality judging from the 3.x book translations.
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Post by malak »

schpeelah wrote:A year? You are being generous here. The polish translation of 4E Core is yet to come out. Well, at least it'll be good quality judging from the 3.x book translations.
...just in time for the release of Essentials :)
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: But seriously, this is like an untapped goldmine here.
Are you seriously comparing the potential sales of a tabletop RPG to a gold mine? Seriously, no. WotC could triple its profits from D&D, and that probably wouldn't even come close to a genuine "gold mine" like MtG.
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Post by Username17 »

hogarth wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote: But seriously, this is like an untapped goldmine here.
Are you seriously comparing the potential sales of a tabletop RPG to a gold mine? Seriously, no. WotC could triple its profits from D&D, and that probably wouldn't even come close to a genuine "gold mine" like MtG.
Actual gold mines don't make an unbelievable amount of money. Gold is just a commodity.

WotC says that they have 1.5 million players, and 16 times that in "lapsed" players. A few years back, they claimed to have six million players. But in any case, China is four times as big as the US. A decent edition with a decent translation into Chinese could have a circulation in the tens of millions without straining anything.

Considering that Newmont Mining's entire world enterprise has a total profit of less than four hundred million dollars, comparing a Chinese language translation of D&D to a gold mine (singular) seems pretty apt. In fact, I would say that D&D translated into Chinese could be expected to be more profitable than a single gold mine.

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Post by TheFlatline »

That's it? 1.5 million players?

That's... insane. Even 6 million players (which I'm guessing is a 3.x era number) seems on the low side. I know that tabletop RPGs aren't exactly mainstream entertainment, but we're talking about a global fanbase that is one third of one percent of the population of the USA.

24 million "lapsed" players worldwide seems a little more realistic. But I have to question what a "lapsed" player really is. Do they define lapsed as someone who doesn't continue buying D&D books? Because by that measurement I'm "lapsed", though I still play D&D whenever the opportunity arises for a decent game. I just play 3.x instead of 4th. There's a *lot* of fanbase that didn't jump to 4, and there's a significant but small fanbase that's still sticking doggedly to AD&D.

For everyone that I know in the local gaming community, nobody felt the *need* for 4th edition at the time. It seemed... not necessary. There was still a lot of places for 3.5 to go. Even the biggest 4th ed water carrier that I know (who was friends with some of the people who nominally playtested the game) managed to get through two full sessions before simply quitting and going back to 3.5.

I would be totally not surprised if the number of people actually playing any version of D&D was closer to 5 or 6 million worldwide, with only 1.5 being "firm" 4th edition supporters/purchasers of new books.
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Post by hogarth »

FrankTrollman wrote:Actual gold mines don't make an unbelievable amount of money.
Durr durr durr... Wake me up when a tabletop RPG company makes $8 billion in revenue per year.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Revenue is a useless number. What are the profits? If your revenue doesn't exceed profits, you're a failing business no matter how big those numbers happen to be.

I could imagine the spike in gold prices recently helps, but it's also pretty expensive and labor-intensive to get it out of the ground.
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

hogarth.

It was hyperbole. I mean, really.

RPGs have a really high profit percentage. RPGs are also not being fully exploited to their market potential in several ways, which I already went through.


Wait, why am I saying this? I'm sure that hogarth was just being facetious and busting my balls. :noblewoman:
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by baduin »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrick_Gold

"For 2008, it produced 7.7 million ounces of gold at a cash cost of US $443/ounce".

Net income $0.785 Billion in 2008.

http://www.goldprice.org/
Current gold price 1191$ per ounce.

result: 5759 million 600 thousand$ per year.

It is obviously not profit - for one thing, royalties will eat part of it. But it would give the order of magnitude - although it is certainly lowered a great deal by "skillful" hedging.
Last edited by baduin on Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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