Using Oil for the Children: Take Two.

[Psychic Robot]

Fact: Oil companies have billions of dollars of revenue.
Fact: Oil companies want to maintain billions of dollars of revenue.
Fact: Oil is a limited, non-renewable resource.
Fact: Oil companies will lose their revenue when there is no oil left.

CONCLUSION: Oil companies will radically alter their structure maintain revenue in the event of oil running out.

SPECULATION: Oil companies may already be investing in alternative energy to capitalize upon oil shortages in the future.

Now, let's talk about this again without "hurr durr kill the rich" and petty squabbling, mmkay?

[Prak]

I was just reminded, for some reason, of a quote from thatfrakinideastealingcatkillingbastardassholeEdison:

"I will make electricity so cheap, only the rich will burn candles!"

[Count Arioch the 28th]

My apologies for breaking the last thread.

As for speculation, I entirely agree. I don't doubt the oil companies probably have 5-6 different alternate energy plans in their belts already planning for the day this happens. I know Phillip-Morris already has patented packaging for "Marlboro Green" and has patented several strains of Cannibis sativa for the event it becomes legal to sell, I don't doubt oil companies probably are sitting on several ways to continue to make money.

[Zinegata]

The problem with oil really is that it's a necessity. Without oil, industrial civilization grinds to a halt. So one really can't live without the oil companies.

That being said, oil companies don't have their own armies and they can be regulated if the political will is present to do so. i.e. Make them subsidize alternate energy.

[Prak]

don't we have some kind of synthetic material we could use in place of petrol based plastics and rubbers?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I know we have synthetic-based lubricants, we used to use them on electric motors when I worked at the turd factory (Specifically, because they weren't flammable and were non-conductive when normal bearing grease was both.)

I am not sure about plastics and rubbers though. And honestly, I'm more worried about running out of plastic than running out of energy. (There are multiple energy sources. It would be a pain in the dick, but you can convert a diesel engine to run on vegetable oil, and use synthetic oil and lube to run the thing. It would suck, but at least big diesel tractors and farm equipment could still run, which means we'll have food.)

Plastic... is a big deal. Especially for medical reasons.

[Zinegata]

don't we have some kind of synthetic material we could use in place of petrol based plastics and rubbers?

While they exist, there aren't a lot of people producing them yet because petrol-based ones are cheaper.

Also, uh, rubber comes from trees dude.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Rubber does come from trees, but plant-based rubber has issues. A lot of rubber is petrol based these days. We could go back, it'd just be inferior.

[Orca]

People have looked at producing plastics from bacteria. Google "plastics producing bacteria" or something like that if you want details. Doable but not economic at the mo.

[Prak]

does that have anything to do with the clothing produced from bacteria?

[Zinegata]

Clothing from bacteria?

Fuck, why?

If you want organic clothes there's already something called "cotton"!

[Prak]

um, why not?
source

[Zinegata]

You article has the same question as me:

"This may come as a surprise to some, but mankind is actually very, very good at growing clothing. We call it cotton. Through slightly less direct methods, we call it wool and silk. And if we're really scraping the barrel, feel free to sweep up the floor after my quarterly haircut. "

[Prak]

Yeah, I know. I think it's a "because we can" deal.

[Zinegata]

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Anyway, about plastics... the best tech for sustainable plastic use isn't to use bacteria. It's to recycle. Damn thing lasts near-forever anyway.

[violence in the media]

We could pursue the plastic from trees angle.

[Zinegata]

Awesome

[Crissa]

Bamboo clothing has the same properties as poly, but can be used like cotton. Unlike cotton, it doesn't take as much fuel or water to farm (cotton is a really tough plant to farm - consumes many nutrients and needs massive amounts of water), but it does take more energy to process.

Still, the amount of money that BP has invested in alternative energy was (four years ago) the most of any oil company, they had the biggest windfarm investment... And it's also less than the cost of one deepwater drilling operation.

-Crissa

[K]

You can make plastics out of corn. No BS. I read an article about some guy in Japan that made CDs out of it.

Basically, we can make alternatives to oil. They just cost more than oil.

Oil comes out of the fucking ground. All you have to do is drill a hole and a hundred million gallons a month come gushing out under its own power. The economics of producing a million gallons of something vs getting a million gallons virtually for free are never going fall on the side of producing, so oil companies are going to keep pushing the use of oil.

Also, remember that in capitalism, scarity drives prices, so the decline of oil in the ground means the oil companies can make record profits during that decline, so don't expect serious investment in oil alternatives for another 50 years.

[Crissa]

Actually, I havein my house now: Plastic made for soy, corn, or potatoes. Plastic that biodegrades, is waterproof but not gas tight - perfect for storing vegetables in, and can be tossed straight into the compost heap. Plastic that is 99% recyclable.

However, most of the plastics in my house are still made from oil sources. And probably will be for a long time.

But we really need to get away from burning plastics and letting the Carbon escape into the atmosphere. We're changing the actual composition of the air we breath and the seas. That's a huge portion of our biosphere! And we're changing it not as a rounding error, but noticeably.

-Crissa

[PoliteNewb]

Re: corn-based plastics...even if we can, should we?

I'm reading Michael Pollan right now ("Omnivore's Dilemma"), and he points out that industrial agricultural corn requires sizeable amounts of petroleum...fuel for farm machinery, petrochemical fertilizer, etc. So is using corn instead of just using oil a net reduction in petroleum use? How 'bout net energy use? How 'bout the other environmental impacts of growing corn on the scale we currently do?

I have no idea about answers, just wanted to ask the question.

[Prak]

well, we're getting to the point where we'll need to replace petrol plastics with something. If we can find a way to produce plastics raw materials as a side effect of something else, so much the better, like, if we can find something we already produce, and part of the process is a waste product that we find out can be turned into plastic, that'd be great.

[Crissa]

It's possible to grow corn industrially without the petrochemicals. That's not how it's being done, but it's possible. Like switchgrass and sugarcane, it only needs sand, air, and water to grow. It's incredibly efficient as a plant. It's just how we do things which isn't efficient for energy production.

For plastics production, it's fine.

This is why it's important for subsidies not to exist and instead have Pigovian laws. Subsidies should be for investment, not for production.

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

Plant-based plastics are awesome. Ideas like other plant-based clothing material are stupid because again, we already have fucking cotton.

[Maj]

I'm reading Michael Pollan right now ("Omnivore's Dilemma"), and he points out that industrial agricultural corn requires sizeable amounts of petroleum...fuel for farm machinery, petrochemical fertilizer, etc. So is using corn instead of just using oil a net reduction in petroleum use? How 'bout net energy use? How 'bout the other environmental impacts of growing corn on the scale we currently do?

I have no idea about answers, just wanted to ask the question.

Hence my question in the first thread. Monocrop agriculture is petroleum based. Without oil, we're going to have to radically rethink farming.

I don't that's really going to happen, though, until the price of food begins to escalate in proportion with increased oil costs. Then there'll be massive starvation until we can figure out a solution (if we can figure out a solution). If we can't... Then a lot of people are going to go hungry.