The End of 4e D&D.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Even more fun... people with advance copies of psionic power are saying they didn't do jack shit to make higher level At Wills worth having (Hell, their damage still doesn't even match a normal classes' At Will at lv 21) so when Mind Thrust, Dishearten, and Demoralizing Strike get nerfed you can just delete the classes completely, as the Psion will make even the Seeker and Swarm Druids look good in comparision.

Also I think it's funny that the Psion is still the only psionic class that actually uses INT in any way.

Are you trying to tell me that Psionics is a worthless waste of time unless you find one trick that relies on abusing the shoddy base of the system and whoring it for all it's worth?

Oh my fucking Christ. But who could have forseen this shocking state of affairs?! Bruce Cordell-sama, why have you forsaken us??

[Psychic Robot]

It's funny because he has a bad track record.

[Ferret]

oh, and to fan the flames a bit more: here's the Essentials Fighter preview - the Slayer.

http://wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=d ... p/20100806

(you guys want me to start just quoting the whole article?)

[Psychic Robot]

What's with Essentials classes having weaker defenses and fewer skills than their counterparts?

[Ferret]

He loses plate, but I think thats due to the role change - the Slayer gets classed as a Striker, and loses Plate to keep the Knight feeling spiffy.

Pretty easy to have a +6/1d12+14 basic attack going with this guy at level one. Not too shabby; this is the first Essentials class I feel like would be fun to play. Particularly with more variety in the Stances.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The fewer skills one I can explain.

4E only has 16 skills with nothing other than binary results for them. The average number of skills a character gets is four and that's before we factor in things like feats, racial abilities, and multiclassing. In a party of five people there is just too much overlap--though not as much as you think because if you're STR or CON-based you're fucked.

But anyway, with fewer skills they can give people more of a chance to shine. Which is fine, but 4E skills don't do anything a mundane person can't unless the plot says so. If the skills actually did far-reaching and epic things but they insisted on keeping so few I'd regard it as a neutral or even positive change.

But the people who design the game have a remarkable blindness towards any aspect of the game that doesn't have combat. I doubt my half-assed explanation even went through anyone's mind; they probably thought 'less skills = easy mode for beginners!'

[sake]

I was kind of happy with this at first, since I thought it was a sign they were easing up on the role protection crap a bit... then I noticed the slayer completely loses all of his actual defender features (except for hp) in return for that weak striker damage feature.

Although I suppose that even being able to switch a class's role is a pretty big thing by 4E design standards... assuming all the classes have similar class options like the Slayer, and it's not just a special snowflake thing that only Fighters get to have.

[Psychic Robot]

As a side note, people have been shitting themselves about the stances because a swift action is apparently a huge opportunity cost in 4e. Sigh.

[Ferret]

Sake, he loses his Defender class features because he's not a Defender anymore; he's a Striker, who's sort of Defender-curious once he's had a few.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Ferret, even if you think that vanilla damage is the bee's knees, that's about the level of pain a STR/DEX brutal scoundrel rogue can bring at level one.

Seriously. 1d8 (rapier proficiency) + 2d6 (sneak attack) + 3 (STR) + 5 (Dex) with basic attacks at a +8 bonus. The brutal scoundrel rogue then reveals that he attacks versus reflex because he has piercing strike, which gives him a practical bonus of around +2 to +5 depending on monster.

I am not impressed.

[Ferret]

How often does the Brutal Rogue grab his Sneak Attack damage? The slayer as presented should be able to get his on every attack (including extra attacks granted by other sources, like the Warlord) if the commentary I've read elsewhere is correct.

(Serious question, I really haven't read much of 4e)

[Lago PARANOIA]

Depends. I personally never had a problem grabbing it for 1st-level pickup games except for occasions like when I was dazed or immobilized--though sometimes I had to use Deft Strike instead of Piercing Strike. Shift + Deft Strike pretty much helps you flank any enemy with the help of a party member unless you're really crowded.

It gets easier as time goes on, especially if the other party members know what they're doing.

[sake]

Sake, he loses his Defender class features because he's not a Defender anymore; he's a Striker, who's sort of Defender-curious once he's had a few.

No... he's not a striker, he's a shitty, single class hybrid character at best. Getting a second stat mod worth of damage isn't quite as big of a thing for a Fighter as it would be for an AoE or multi-attack class. Especially if they lose their mark punishment feature to get it.

There's already at least two paragon paths a 4E fighter can take right now that grants an extra stat worth of damage to his attacks AND they let him keep all his defender toolbox on top of that.

Now granted, Pitfighter won't work with an Essential Fighter at all and Son of Mercy could be castrated at any time, but from what I've see of it so far, a WIS pumping Polearm or Tempest 4E Fighter could not only match a Slayer for damage, but still fuction as a full fledge defender as well.


Sigh...Which is why the 4E fighter will be nerfed into the ground next errata...

[Lago PARANOIA]

Sigh...Which is why the 4E fighter will be nerfed into the ground next errata...

I wonder how many more fans 4E will bleed with the next round of errata.

[Ferret]

One thing of reasonable note is that this guy gets his stance binnies to Ranged basic attacks as well. Shame his Power Strike specifies melee attacks.

[sake]

Okay, yes, it is nice that they're actually letting Rogues and Fighters use real ranged weapons again without feat taxes, splat books, or jumping through hoops to do it.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Who the fuck cares about basic attacks?

Spamming At-Wills is the most tedious part of 4E at low levels. I can't believe that the game designers think that spamming an even more vanilla attack would be interesting.

It's like they simultaneously bought into their own hype about 3E fighters being so much less interesting while ALSO believing that their strawman version of 3E is what their game needs to kick sales in the rear. I mean, I'm glad to see that they realize that cutting down on padded sumo is a positive change, but it's like for one step forward one step must be taken back!

[Lago PARANOIA]

Okay, yes, it is nice that they're actually letting Rogues and Fighters use real ranged weapons again without feat taxes, splat books, or jumping through hoops to do it.

Like what? Rogues had real ranged weapons. They could use crossbows, which are better than bows. This is true even with the feat tax to make reloading quicker for the better ones.

STR is the most common attribute for melee attacks, which means that you can use heavy thrown weapons. Yes, +2 1d6 looks like crap next to +2 1d12, but if we're talking about basic attacks then I seriously don't give a fuck.

Why are people getting so excited about a few points of boring vanilla damage getting shifted around?

[sake]

I think it's a response to the "weaboo fightian magic" and
"Everybody's a Caster Now" complaints. Some idiots think that having multiple sword attacks with different names and effects somehow = Pansy Caster, while having just a single damn sword attack with a bunch of different effects you can add to it = Proper Conan Type Melee Dude.

Yeah... when they said they were removing dailys, I was hoping it meant every class would get rid of the damn things because they realized they were horrible things to balance a game around. Instead they removed them just from the swordy classes because they thought it made them too magicy like.

[Ferret]

my DM is definitely in that "everybody's a caster now" camp. It's a shame, since we both think that 4e had some good ideas, but the similarity in how all the classes played at the outset kept us from even giving 4e much of a shot.

[Psychic Robot]

Who the fuck cares about basic attacks?

Me. I believe that basic attacks should be your go-to attacks. Special attacks should work entirely with the basic attack mechanic.

[Mask_De_H]

What does that even mean PR?

[Psychic Robot]

Instead of having retarded special attacks like 4e does, everything should be centralized around you basic melee attack (at least for melee powers). For instance, take Deft Strike. It's a Dexterity vs. AC melee or ranged attack that lets you move two squares when you make the attack. To use it, you must be wielding a crossbow, light blade, or a sling.

Now, I must ask myself, "Why is this a power? What does it add to the game?" The answer, of course, is very little. People think that it's something new and interesting because they can say "I use Deft Strike!" instead of the ho-hum "I make a basic attack," but people who are that easily deceived are functionally retarded. In reality, Deft Strike isn't a new option.

My idea would be to cut out the bullshit. Deft Strike: You can move two squares and make a ranged or melee basic attack. Saves space and isn't a sleight-of-hand by the writers to trick people into thinking they've got something new and shiny when they don't.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't mind abilities like Deft Strike existing at low levels, especially when you're trying to get beginners acquainted with the game, but at higher levels 'basic attack + some spoon' should stop describing most abilities.

The fact that most 4E sword-based class powers can be rewritten in such a fashion at higher levels is a damning indictment of the system, not a template to follow.

[Psychic Robot]

but at higher levels 'basic attack + some spoon' should stop describing most abilities.

Give me an example of what you think high level abilities should look like.