SR4 has lost all credibility with me.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Maybe it's just me, then. But I generally have difficulty telling Hispanics and Asians apart unless, so...yeah, they all kind of do look alike, heh.

I would agree that Hispanics that have Central and South American Indian ancestry can pass for Asian in many cases. One of the theories I heard was that South America was colonized by Polynesians long before the migration across the Bering Strait had moved that far south. It might have been discredited by now.

[Crissa]

Actually, the only theory that's been discredited is the mid-American passage and Clovis people being the first through it. There may have been passage of people across the frozen seas thousands of years earlier from both directions.

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

There may have been passage of people across the frozen seas thousands of years earlier from both directions.

Both directions? Do you mean from east to west, or north to south? Haven't heard of that theory before.

[Crissa]

East and west. If Polynesians could have come from the west, then fishing cultures could have come across the short hops of ice from the east. There is possible similarities in some hunting methods, tools, and animals on both sides of the Atlantic.

-Crissa

[Wageslave]

I was about to comment that the first one was albino, noting the silver shaded eyes and pinkish white skin, I was iffy on the second because I could not clearly discern an eye color. and the fourth appears to be Indian or middle-eastern, rather than a " white douche-ette"..... just saying

[Username17]

Frank, not sure what you're saying. That the picture is from Metapedia? If so, how did you find out?

He is using a pre-canned piece of bullshit picture comparison that is handed around on racist sites. It's not only a pathetic, disingenuous argument, it's not even his.

Those exact pictures are thrown around on metapedia and Stormfront on a regular basis to show that Blacks would be "ugly" even if their skin was light, and that Whites would be "beautiful" even if their skin was dark. Seriously, exactly those pictures. In the same order.

PR is image macroing us with pre-packaged trollings from fucking Stormfront, and I am not amused.

-Username17

[A Man In Black]

You know what's a fun toy?

Tineye.

[ETortoise]

I haven't played Shadowrun but this whole back and forth is getting crazy.

As (I think) Wesley said, 'passing' is a real phenomenon. In the 1920's Walter Francis White used his lighter skin tone to investigate lynchings in the south. It was incredibly dangerous but he managed to write about forty-one lynchings and eight race riots without being discovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Francis_White

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
This is getting dangerously close to social commentary. Let's go back to Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, and Humans, and mechanical flaws in SR4.
[/TGFBS]

[Psychic Robot]

Since I don't spend any time on Stormfront, I wouldn't know what's going on over there.

I'll give you a quick guess as to which one is an elf and which one is an orc. It would be distinctly more difficult to make an orc pass for an elf than it would be an elf to pass for an orc. Bulking up someone's frame is simple; slimming down is a process that takes considerable time.

[Mask_De_H]

Goddammit PR, I try not to bring my race or any sort of non-mechanical prejudices into gaming discussion but not only is that metapedia stuff stupid and racist, it's not even clever. I mean, you just posted the equivalent of "bix nood" to prove an argument, which is not only offensive to me as a black person, but offensive to me as a troll and a person.

Fuck, at least try to be more interesting with your ignorant trolling.

[Josh_Kablack]

You're throwing a fit because orks can't look like elves?

Oh sorry, I didn't realize I was posting on the "SERIOUS BUSINESS Den" message board.

If some new (or new-to-me) game system slights my favorite race for no perceivable reason, I kinda thought this was the proper place for it. And trust me, when I throw a fit, it involves more than a pair of late night drunken posts on the internet.

[Psychic Robot]

If some new (or new-to-me) game system slights my favorite race for no perceivable reason, I kinda thought this was the proper place for it.

Apparently, this is the SERIOUS BUSINESS Den messageboard.

[Josh_Kablack]

I'll give you a quick guess as to which one is an elf and which one is an orc. It would be distinctly more difficult to make an orc pass for an elf than it would be an elf to pass for an orc. Bulking up someone's frame is simple; slimming down is a process that takes considerable time.

That's BS piled on top of BS.

First: I'll grant right out that those two pictures look different. But all that proves is "There exist orcs who cannot be mistaken for elves." and "there exist elves who cannot be mistaken for orcs." What I am taking issue with is the pair of claims"There exist elves who can pass for orcs" and "There DO NOT exist orcs who can pass for elves"

For a counterpoint: compare and contrast the sample character pics on page 90 and page 95. Could you honestly tell them apart aside from the race tag on the character sheet and the pronounced lower canines on one of them? Because what you are arguing is that the guy on page 90 looks like an orc if he gets some Tusk implants, but the gal on 95 doesn't look a thing like an elf even if she gets her tusks pulled.

Next, while bulking up or slimming down may be easier/harder for different individuals or populations, that means precisely jack here - because the question isn't whether a process is easier or harder - it's whether the ranges for the two populations overlap at all. And if they do, then those on the edges of either population should be able to pass for the other. And if they don't, then nobody from either population should be able to pass for the other. If a bulked up, body-building elf can walk with a stoop and claim to be a skinny orc, then an anorexic orc in heels ought to be able to claim to be a short elf wearing shoulder pads.

And now let's get into the actual book text,

Orks are proportioned similarly to humans, albeit with a heavier build that adds to their overall bulk. Beyond size, the most distinguishing physical feature of orks are large lower canines, which often look even more alien
when paired with the metatype’s characteristic thin lips and flat noses.
Ork ears are pointed just like elf ears, though not as elongated. Also like elves, ork eyes are naturally adapted for low-light situations.

So the two metatypes have some prominent features in common, but also some features notably different.

I guess it's just impossible to reduce build, exaggerate height, remove teeth, reshape noses, or have one's lips plumped out in 2070. Which seems a little odd given that I can find Hollywood types who have done each of those in the 1990s.

Furthermore:

Characters with this quality who have undergone cosmetic
surgery to get “elf ears” and “elf eyes” may successfully pass as elves

an Ork Poser is an elf or human character who alters his
appearance to appear as an ork. Various cosmetic biomods—
tusk implants, steroids, larynx alterations, etc.—allow the character
to successfully pass as an

So, in both cases there are cosmetic and/or medical modifications involved.

What does SR4 have to say about cosmetic surgery 60 years into the awakened future?

Cosmetic Modification: Outpatient treatments that take about 2 hours can be obtained to alter the user’s appearance— shape, coloration, and pigmentation of the face and body along with addition or removal of hair (fiberoptic hair with changing color patterns is still very popular). Exotic modifications like scaly skin, colorful fur, cat ears, ork tusks, or tails are more difficult to come by.

So apparently in the time it takes to get a perm and a facial today, a character in 2070 can alter their body shape - so much for slimming down being harder than bulking up.

See also:
-Mask Spell
-Phantasm Spell
-Chameleon Suit
-Latex Face Mask
-Nanopaste Disguise

And those are just the core book, I haven't started in the supplements.

But despite all this, the rules clearly say Elves can be orc posers, Orcs cannot be Elf posers. That's just nonsense, and as a member of the
Orcish anti-defamation.league I can't let it stand.

[Psychic Robot]

Well, I guess that doesn't make much sense, then.

[kzt]

I took incompetent Parachuting and incompetent Piloting - Hot Air Balloon in Frank's game. The one set on Mars....

There are better ways of scoring Build Points.
....
Incompetent (unarmed)

[CatharzGodfoot]

I took incompetent Parachuting and incompetent Piloting - Hot Air Balloon in Frank's game. The one set on Mars....

The best reason to do that is it becomes the GM's duty to make the runners go hot air ballooning on a semi-regular basis.

[kzt]

Kind of hard to do, given that hot air balloons are kind of hard to run on Mars. Then again, so are parachutes....

[shau]

I took incompetent: Shuttle piloting or something else equally unlikely to be needed and space related. My GM got me back by making every person we interacted with identify me as that moron that crashed a space shuttle into a petting zoo.

[Orca]

Someone reckons martian hot air balloons are possible.
http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bits ... 8-0306.pdf

There again, being totally incompetent in piloting hot air balloons would be either fatal or meaningless, there's not a large gap in between.

[kzt]

I took incompetent: Shuttle piloting or something else equally unlikely to be needed and space related. My GM got me back by making every person we interacted with identify me as that moron that crashed a space shuttle into a petting zoo.

That's epic!

[Centurion13]

Frank, not sure what you're saying. That the picture is from Metapedia? If so, how did you find out?

He is using a pre-canned piece of bullshit picture comparison that is handed around on racist sites. It's not only a pathetic, disingenuous argument, it's not even his.

Those exact pictures are thrown around on metapedia and Stormfront on a regular basis to show that Blacks would be "ugly" even if their skin was light, and that Whites would be "beautiful" even if their skin was dark. Seriously, exactly those pictures. In the same order.

PR is image macroing us with pre-packaged trollings from fucking Stormfront, and I am not amused.

-Username17

This is the first time I have seen this sequence of images.

Frank, I am not sure which of my immediate responses is ascendant...

- awe and admiration for your seemingly plucking this out of thin internet and turning it on PR like an aluminum softball bat.

- distaste and unease at the inferred familiarity you seem to have with those sites - places even you don't care for.

PR has a point. He may back it with material easily acquired from sources of questionable taste, and it may ultimately prove false. How applicable it is to the overall theme of the thread as started by Josh Kablack? And since when did that thread theme become 'What Amuses Frank'?

Noise to signal, as you once pointed out to me.

Cent13

[CatharzGodfoot]

Frank, not sure what you're saying. That the picture is from Metapedia? If so, how did you find out?

He is using a pre-canned piece of bullshit picture comparison that is handed around on racist sites. It's not only a pathetic, disingenuous argument, it's not even his.

Those exact pictures are thrown around on metapedia and Stormfront on a regular basis to show that Blacks would be "ugly" even if their skin was light, and that Whites would be "beautiful" even if their skin was dark. Seriously, exactly those pictures. In the same order.

PR is image macroing us with pre-packaged trollings from fucking Stormfront, and I am not amused.

-Username17

This is the first time I have seen this sequence of images.

Frank, I am not sure which of my immediate responses is ascendant...

- awe and admiration for your seemingly plucking this out of thin internet and turning it on PR like an aluminum softball bat.

- distaste and unease at the inferred familiarity you seem to have with those sites - places even you don't care for.

I would assume that he found the sources via Tineye.

[Centurion13]

I would assume that he found the sources via Tineye.

Heck, I just clicked on that link. You know, he might have.

It eases the dissonance a bit. Now I am free to admire the seal-clubbing.

Cent13

[Crissa]

There are mechanical reasons you don't want orcs to pose as other races, though.

-Crissa