Stopping the Tabletop RPG Slump

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Zinegata
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Stopping the Tabletop RPG Slump

Post by Zinegata »

Tabletop RPG games are in a slump. From 6 million or so RPG players in the 3.X era, the number of tabletop RPG players have steadily declined to the point that Wizards is reporting there is just a mere 1.5 million D&D players left worldwide.

How can we "fix" this decline? Well, to answer that, we first need to learn what went wrong.

How D&D Became Big...

D&D first came out in 1974, and is widely regarded as starting the whole tabletop RPG industry. And to understand why D&D became a success, you need to look at how the state of the tabletop industry as a whole during that time.

Back then it was actually a world devoid of "geeky" entertainment. Computer games were available, but only as coin-operated arcade games. The famed Atari system - the first home console system - wouldn't make its debut until 1977.

D&D's competition at the time was in fact just traditional boardgames (Monopoly, Risk, etc), miniatures (D&D was based off a minis game), and wargames. Wargames were, in fact, the hottest item in tabletop gaming in the early 70s, peaking in 1980 with 2.2 million wargames sold.

With so little competition, D&D and RPGs began to boom in the 1980s. This was greatly aided by the fact that wargaming essentially crashed after 1980, while computer games were still limited to twitch-based games like Pong.

Essentially, D&D and its RPG counterparts monopolized not just the "roleplaying" side of the tabletop experience, but also dominated the "intellectual" side of gaming in the 80s.

So it didn't matter that a lot of books had poor production values. It didn't matter that the mechanics were pretty primitive and counter-intuitive. This was an era when a hard sci-fi game like Traveller could be published and make big bucks, because gamers had no other choice.

In total, Wizard estimates that there are about 24 million RPG gamers worldwide, and the majority of them played during this era.

... And How D&D Became Small

Unfortunately, the happy times for D&D and tabletop RPGs was not to last. And it all began (not with 4E) in 1994, with a game called Magic the Gathering.

CCGs brought something new to the tabletop market: A competitive, face-to-face, and intellectual game that could be finished in under an hour. Suddenly, all of the "intellectual" gamers who were forced to play D&D had a choice. They could play a game without all of the roleplaying drama from LARPers, and they could play a lot more games in one evening than the usual "one combat session per game night".

Simultaneously, Euro boardgames began to gain popularity abroad, with the introduction of Settlers of Catan in 1995. These games were more "social" than CCGs, but it again gave the intellectual type of gamer another choice.

Finally - age had also caught up with most D&D players who started in the 80s. Ten years is a long time for an individual human being, and the teenagers who played D&D in the 80s were now fathers and mothers. They now had jobs and responsibilities. They simply found it much harder to set aside entire evenings for gaming.

As a result - aided in part due to massive mismanagement by TSR - D&D sales began to plummet. It got so bad that D&D was finally bought out by WoTC in 1997.

The 3rd Edition Comeback

But D&D's story doesn't end there. It came back, somewhat, in the year 2000 when WoTC released D&D 3rd Edition - and brought the active player base to 6 million people.

The merits and problems of 3rd Edition have been done to death in this forum. But what was happening to the rest of the world at the same time had not, and these were very interesting times.

First of all, by this time the Internet revolution was in full swing. Chatting over the Internet, posting on forums, and using e-mail had all become mainstream by this year. MMOs were about to take off - with Everquest being launched the year before in 1999.

What this means is that 3rd Edition became the "standard" edition for the average Internet user. Especially since most of them could actually download the SRD and play the game without ever having to buy a book. A few 2nd Ed players made their presence known online - but again most of these guys were already pretty old by this time and had to focus on other stuff, albeit enough of them appeared to inaugurate the first Internet Edition Wars.

Regardless, because most of the people who started playing 3.0 were part of the Internet-savvy generation, it's 3.X that dominates the online space even to this day.

Secondly, this was in many ways the "golden age of fantasy". The Lord of the Rings films came out starting 2001. Single-player Computer RPGs were represented by the classics - Baldur's Gate, Diablo, and Final Fantasy VII were all released within 3 years of D&D 3rd Ed. In short, fantasy as a genre had become mainstream.

However, despite all that, D&D never regained its lofty heights. Again, we're talking about 20+ million D&D players before, and around 6 million or so with 3.X.

What happened?

Well, what happened is that players now had a lot of choices - a consequence of fantasy becoming mainstream, and a consequence of the Internet quickly spreading information throughout geekdom.

People who liked strategy, but not player interaction, were probably forced to play D&D back in the 80s. But by year 2000, they didn't have to play tabletop RPGs to play fantasy strategy anymore. They can play Baldur's Gate. The person who wants to cleave through 2,000 goblins? He doesn't need a DM anymore. He can play Diablo instead.

Thus, the lesson of 3.X's success isn't that "D&D can keep growing forever!". What it actually shows is that D&D had very real limits. In a truly competitive environment - where there are CCGs, Euros, Minis, CRPGs, and MMOs - only around 6 million people would play D&D. The rest had gone to play other stuff.

4th Ed Fail

Unfortunately, this was a lesson that WoTC completely failed to learn, or accept. Egged on by Hasbro, 4th Ed was clearly a risk meant to try and make D&D big again. That's why the edition abandoned and showed so much contempt towards the 3rd Ed fans.

The problem is that they tried to target people, who were already entrenched playing a different game. 4th Ed has a lot of elements borrowed from MMOs, and a lot of the marketing is clearly targetted towards trying to convert MMO players to playing D&D. Only it totally failed, and it's not because of the mechanics (even though they sucked).

Try playing an MMO. Then try playing a D&D session. Then try playing Pong (seriously).

What you should quickly realize is that playing an MMO is actually a lot closer to Pong than D&D. Sure, Pong's graphics suck. It doesn't have numbers. But majority of your playing time in an MMO actually revolves around moving your character around. Making your character go to interesting places. Making your character take up attack position. Timing your heal to save a dying teammate.

In short, MMOs are much more a "twitch" game, rather than a numbers-and-calculations game.

Compare that to D&D 4th Ed. The only time you move your character around in combat is when your turn comes up. The rest of the time, you sit down and watch other people move their characters, or talk/joke with the rest of the players.

And because WoTC failed to realize that playing a tabletop RPG is a fundamentally different experience from an MMO, their product failed miserably. We're now down to 1.5 million players (because the people who started playing in the year 2000 got old too), and most of these are people who used to play D&D as opposed to new blood from MMOs.

The Future

Now given this situation, what can be done?

My proposal is simple. For the next edition of D&D to be a success, it needs to stop with the mass-market delusions. We are never going back to the 80s era where D&D dominated the tabletop scene. Too many competitors exist. In the year 2000, with a competitive market, with a good product, we got about 6 million players. That is our ceiling.

Now, some of you may argue that targeting to hit 6 million people, as opposed to hit all 5 billion is retarded. Why target a smaller number when you can target a bigger one?

So let me explain a concept in marketing called niche marketing.

Marketing is essentially a battle of ideas in the consumer's mind. And most consumers only have enough space in their minds for 2 or 3 competing "ideas" for a particular issue. If you're #4 on their mind, you are simply forgotten

For instance, when a consumer's issue is "What kind of cola should I drink?", most consumers either think Coke (representing the idea of the "traditional" cola) or Pepsi (representing the idea of the new and hip Cola). This is why they are the market leaders in the beverage segment.

The thing is, some people don't like thinking the same way the mainstream does. If you ask some people "What kind of cola do you drink?", they would respond "I want to drink something healthy." Because of these people, the concept of health drinks were born, and they are very profitable.

Now, apply this to this question: "What fantasy game do you play?". And the truth of the matter is, most people will answer World of Warcraft (the idea of playing with your friends online), Dragon Age (the idea of playing a strategy RPG), and Final Fantasy (the idea of playing an angsty teen.). D&D simply isn't big enough anymore to compete with its computer game counterparts.

However, D&D can totally fulfill the needs of players who say "I want to create my own fantasy game". And this is something that cannot be fulfilled by WoW, Dragon Age, or Final Fantasy. This is something that D&D (and TTPRGs in general) owns.

I Can Create My Own Game with D&D

And thus we get to the master plan: Re-defining D&D as the game... where you can create your own game.

Design-it-yourself is a huge part of D&D. The Den was born largely because of a set of houserules. Edition Wars are fought because people think 2nd/3rd/4th Ed is "their" game. They took the rules, "improved it" using their own skills, and made it the best game ever (or so they think). And it is something that none of D&D's real competitors - CRPGs, MMOs, and boardgames - can match.

To meet this paradigm, here are some of the things the new edition will need to have:

* Involve the player base as much as possible during the development of the game. Have them vote on which classes will be on the PHB. Hold a massive playtest were people can submit cool ideas, classes, and feats (gameplay balancing being a secondary consideration).

* Let players vote on which supplements to develop next (similar to GMT's pre-order model). So we're not forced to develop yet another Forgotten Realms book unless 10K people seriously commit to pre-ordering it.

* Emphasize customizeability over balance. If you're given the choice between free-form multi-classing and making Fighters = Wizard, go with the former (although still try to achieve the latter). Again, it's about letting the players pick and choose what mechanics they want.

* Focus on cool ideas and concepts and make them work. People want to play stuff like Necromancers, Summoners, and stuff. Make sure they can play these archetypes. Again, balance be damned if needed.

* Add in subsystems and alternate rules sets, but only if enough players vote for them and commit via pre-orders system above. This should let good subsystems (i.e, crafting) to get nice books, while weeding our chaff like that Incarnum thing.

* Extensively use existing online resources. Don't try to create your own Facebook. Instead, go to places where D&D players already congregate and market your product there. You're here to sell an RPG, not another new social networking program.

* Publish free stuff from time to time via PDF - like say rules updates.

* Support minis, but don't make them mandatory. Depending on the profitability, either make a seperate non-randomized miniatures line for battle games (ala Warhammer) and make them compatible with D&D, or simply abandon minis production entirely and instead license it out to a 3rd-party mini-making company. With the latter option, you can also sell some cardboard counters and tiles with your books to serve as ad-hoc minis.

*whew*

Anyway, as with everything on the Den, I expect violent reactions, so let me now put on some body armor before people start shooting :P.
Last edited by Zinegata on Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:14 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

I think I agree with your general thesis here. D&D is and always will be a niche market, and the game will have more success by catering to and expanding that niche that it can by attempting to go mass market.

But some stuff I disagree with or want to react to:
  • Traveler never ever made "big bucks"
  • You're overrating Eurogames impact. Wiz-War, Cosmic Encounter, The Awful Green Things from Outer Space, Ogre/GEV, Plague and Pestilence, Talisman, Arkham Horror, Illuminati and a variety of licensed board and card games (Dune, Groo, Aliens, etc) all competed for geek recreation time well before Die Siedler came around.
  • Consoles tanked after Atari's ET-based crash in the 80s - but computer games took off in the 80s, and in terms of quantity if not sales numbers RPGs flourished there Wizardry I was released in 1981, and followed by the starts of the Ultima, Bard's Tale, Might and Magic and Wasteland Fallout Series. These were options for RPG geeks in throughout the 80s.
  • I personally think that the TSR mismanagement was a bigger factor in D&D's decline than CCGs. Pre-printing 400,000 units of Dragon Dice has got to be one of the dumbest decisions ever made in gaming.
  • You also miss the non-game forms of geek entertainment. In 1974 this was Star Trek conventions. In the 90s it was swapping Evangelion fansubs on at Anime Club and today it's torrenting Guren Laggan. This seems minor but you'll note that the contemporary version has less face-to-face interaction that those from prior decades.
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Post by Leress »

The famed Atari system - the first home console system - wouldn't make its debut until 1977.
That is completely wrong. The first video game console was the Odyssey which came out in 1972.

You are also missing a lot of other details about gaming from the 70s-80s any you are shifting numbers around.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Zine, I'm with you on 'D&D as a toolkit' being key, but I don't think that online surveys will help with that at all. The important thing isn't that potential players get to spam votes for blue M&Ms in the bag.

The important thing is that the candy bag comes with yellow, green, brown, red, and orange M&Ms, and that players are given the tools to color M&Ms blue, purple, pink, grey, or any other color they want. And that players can even put peanuts in their M&Ms, or make them black and orange. And if players don't want to color their own purple M&Ms or fill them with peanut butter, they'll eventually be able to get M&Ms already made that way (either by other players or by M&M Mars).

Does that make sense?
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Post by kzt »

Josh_Kablack wrote: But some stuff I disagree with or want to react to:
  • I personally think that the TSR mismanagement was a bigger factor in D&D's decline than CCGs. Pre-printing 400,000 units of Dragon Dice has got to be one of the dumbest decisions ever made in gaming.
Indeed. The entire warehouse full of crappy gaming fiction that they allowed to build up didn't help. When the publisher decided to demand payment they didn't have the cash due to the other management idiocy.

But CCGs didn't help.
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Post by TheFlatline »

My problem is that having to build it all from scratch by myself, each time I want to run a game that might be in a different setting, sucks.

I won't buy that game. I won't run that game because I'll now be spending probably 2 or 3-to-1 time ratio of developing the damn game world to actually running the game.

It's why published settings work. They aren't particularly good... any of them... But they're there. I can make small modifications to lessen the suckitude, but generally speaking the world is there and I can just use it.

Let's remember that most D&D games probably don't last 10 levels. Hell, I imagine a large portion of them fall apart after 5 levels or so. As a DM, looking at having to build a world for 10 sessions of gaming makes me feel like it's not worth it.

I agree however to focus D&D as a niche market. However, you're jumping the gun by going straight to design without deciding what your niche is going to be. Is it going to be aimed at teenagers? Older folks? You have to remember that most high school kids no longer know how to write cursive (it's a slight majority at this point), and their willingness to read a dead tree book, or for that matter 300 pages of rules, is going to be slim.

If you target adults, you're looking at limited time investment, potentially limited money investment, and the problem of edition loyalty. As you said, as gamers grow older, we drift somewhat away from the hobby.

The most lucrative group to me as a player base is college-age kids. They read a metric fuck-ton already, they are used to doing math and calculations, they have spare time, the only thing they don't have a lot of is disposable income.

Anyway, there isn't a right answer to the question, but the answer does reflect how you're going to develop, market, and distribute the game.
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Post by Zinegata »

Josh->

I think you raise some valid concerns:

[*]Traveler never ever made "big bucks"

--Okay, it made money. Big bucks is a bit of an exageration, yes.

[*]You're overrating Eurogames impact. Wiz-War, Cosmic Encounter, The Awful Green Things from Outer Space, Ogre/GEV, Plague and Pestilence, Talisman, Arkham Horror, Illuminati and a variety of licensed board and card games (Dune, Groo, Aliens, etc) all competed for geek recreation time well before Die Siedler came around.

--I agree Euros were much less visible in the US during the early 90s, as it was still mainly limited in Europe. Hence my focus on CCGs as the main "killer" of Tabletop RPGs.

Games like Talisman (often classified "Ameritrash", despite its British roots) were much more prominent in the US during this period, but CCGs kinda overshadowed them.

[*]Consoles tanked after Atari's ET-based crash in the 80s - but computer games took off in the 80s, and in terms of quantity if not sales numbers RPGs flourished there Wizardry I was released in 1981, and followed by the starts of the Ultima, Bard's Tale, Might and Magic and Wasteland Fallout Series. These were options for RPG geeks in throughout the 80s.

--I don't deny that some cRPGs came out in the 80s. However, what dominated the computer game market at the time was actually the NES - which was composed almost entirely of "twitch" games. There were options, but not enough of them to affect D&D.

[*]I personally think that the TSR mismanagement was a bigger factor in D&D's decline than CCGs. Pre-printing 400,000 units of Dragon Dice has got to be one of the dumbest decisions ever made in gaming.

--TSR mismanagement definitely contributed, but those unsold units of dice shouldn't have affected the number of people actively playing RPGs.

But the active player base did go down - so the reason is probably external factors (which is the gamers getting old, and gamers getting other stuff to play with).

[*]You also miss the non-game forms of geek entertainment. In 1974 this was Star Trek conventions. In the 90s it was swapping Evangelion fansubs on at Anime Club and today it's torrenting Guren Laggan. This seems minor but you'll note that the contemporary version has less face-to-face interaction that those from prior decades.
[/list]

--I'm focusing more on the gaming side, because otherwise the analysis would be far longer than what it already is :)

Leress->

Correct, but Atari is the best-known one, hence I cited it. ;)

Carthaz->

I... am not getting the analogy o_o.

TheFlatline->

A valid concern. However, that's what the pre-order system is meant to address: Let the people vote with their money on what kind of pre-made stuff (if any) that they get.

Please note that I'm just outlining a general philosophy on how the next edition should look like, not yet a specific book schedule.
Last edited by Zinegata on Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Zinegata »

Carthaz->

After eating some breakfast, I've re-read your comment and I think I get what you mean now.

Your concern is that the pre-order system will turn into a sort of online popularity contest, where votes can be spammed.

So let me explain in further detail how the GMT pre-order system works.

First of all, in the GMT pre-order system you don't have just one winner. You can have multiple winners. For instance, let's say our current poll line up is as follows:

------

* 5th Ed Stronghold Builder's Guide by Mike Mearls
* 5th Ed Guide to Necromancy by Monte Cook
* 5th Ed Guide to Nature Magic by Jonathan Tweet

Pre-Order Period: Jan - Mar 2014
Minimum Pre-Orders: 10,000
Publication Date: Dec 2014

------

Any or all of the above three books can be published, as long as enough people commit to pre-ordering it. In this case, a book will be published if at least 10K people commit to pre-ordering it from January to March 2014, and it will be published by December 2014.

So, for instance, if 50,000 people commit to pre-ordering the Guide to Necromancy, 15,000 people commit to pre-ordering the Guide to Nature Magic, and 10,001 people commit to the Stronghold Builder's Guide, all three books will be published by December 2014.

If Stronghold Builder's Guide gets only 9,999 pre-orders however, then only Guide to Necromancy and Guide to Nature will get the green light for the December release. However, the 9,999 pre-orders will carry over to the next pre-order cycle, so even though it won't get published in December, it may be published sometime in 2015 if it gets enough votes.

Moreover, when someone pre-orders, they must pay a small deposit (say $5) per pre-order. This is to prevent people from simply spamming one book they really, really want - because they have to spend actual money to add more "votes". The deposits are generally non-refundable, BUT they ARE transferrable to a different game (i.e. If you voted for Stronghold Builder's Guide, but it didn't get enough pre-orders, you can transfer your pre-order to another book).

This system can be further enhanced by having several tiers. For instance, a minimum of 10,000 orders is needed to publish a physical book. But if a book gets just 2,000 pre-orders, then a PDF version will be made available.

Finally, it forces the authors to put up a really good dog and pony show for players to convince them to pre-order. If they don't, they're NOT gonna get a book published :).
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Post by mean_liar »

Catharz is, I think, not aware of the GMT pre-order gig. I get the impression he wants toolkitting and fundamental principles as part of the base game design. To address this directly, the games I'm most familiar with this sort of framework are effects-based; specifically HERO, whose supplements I always find devoid of content other than NPCs because I already know how to reimagine various effects to suit whatever genre I'm in.

However, that's not what Zinegata is talking about with emulating GMT's preorder system. Zinegata's example shows what he means by ordering "blue M&Ms": you commit to buy something unfinished and when it hits it's threshold of profitability that product gets written. The game expands as it's playerbase votes via dollars.
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Post by Kobajagrande »

Personally, Zing, my gut instinct tells me you're mistaken.

- I don't recall the timeline exactly, but I think computer RPGs did not damage the tabletop RPG industry - if nothing, they strengthened it. I think it went a long period of nothing (time of TSRs AD&D), then came Diablo, then Baldur's Gate, and then 3E, which pretty much revitalized the tabletop industry. I'd be more inclined to say BG and Fallout brought in much more players to the tabletop then they drew away.

Why that happened with those RPGs and not with WoW... If I had to guess, I'd say its because they were a different sort of product. Computer RPGs had finite usability; you'd play them, you'd finish them, and then they would keep you wanting more of the same sort of experience. What could provide that? Well, tabletop RPGs.
On the other hand, WoW and other MMORPGs are different in that they are pretty much endless - as long as you're interested, you'll keep playing them. After you get disinterested, you leave them and walk away. And since you got bored with the entire RPG thing, the chances of tabletop catching your attention are pretty slim.

- More importantly, I think you severely underestimate the fact that the model customer changed. And it changed a lot.
For one, people associate differently nowadays. I don't remember which argument it was on this board, but someone said something along the lines of "If you want to hang out with your friends, you better have a LAN party than play tabletop RPG". The fact that no-one raised an eyebrow to that is somewhat telling of this whole issue. And it is a pretty big issue for tabletop RPGs.
Then, for various reasons, a lot of rpg gaming went online, and tabletop RPGs are ill-suited for that. This might be purely personal nonsense, but I think a big part of RPG is the interactions that players have around the game, and online chat is just not good enough for that.
Finally, god damn, its one of the most time consuming games there is. Everyone is talking about how busy the people today are, how little time there is and how everything is fast and whatnot, and yet, RPG companies still expect you to read a book of 300+ pages just to be able to play. Well, something is wrong there.
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Post by Roy »

Kobajagrande wrote:For one, people associate differently nowadays. I don't remember which argument it was on this board, but someone said something along the lines of "If you want to hang out with your friends, you better have a LAN party than play tabletop RPG". The fact that no-one raised an eyebrow to that is somewhat telling of this whole issue. And it is a pretty big issue for tabletop RPGs.
That was me. And the context was 'if your only goals are to hang out with your friends, and do math a LAN party is better than tabletop because it requires less effort for the same result'. And that the niche of tabletop is fantasy escapism - basically, only people who care about roleplaying have any reason to play tabletop at all. Everything else tabletop offers is done better by something else. So either you like the whole package of roleplay + crunch + socializing and you play tabletop, or you don't like roleplay but like the other two and you throw a LAN party. If you like the first and third things, but not the second you're just throwing a magical tea party so any discussion of selling stuff to you is moot. If you like the first two but not the third you're kinda fucked. And if you don't like either of the first two but like the third you're going to be doing something non gaming related, so it's again moot to discuss selling things to you.
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Post by Username17 »

Well, books have been getting longer and longer, and the amount of words that an average person (or even a specifically literate person) reads every week has grown tremendously over the last few decades. People simply expect more from books than they used to. In Search of Lost Time by Proust is less than half of the Wheel of Time, and fantasy fans these days churn through the entire cycle in a few weeks while still going to work.

That being said, table top RPGs have met or exceeded even that trend. The 4e Core Books are about as long as Atlas Shrugged, and nWoD is over ten million words long. That's obscene.

RPGs really should get more on the short pamphlet model they started in. People will read 200k words of backstory, but they want mechanics that they can fucking understand.

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Post by Maj »

Kobajagrande wrote:For one, people associate differently nowadays. I don't remember which argument it was on this board, but someone said something along the lines of "If you want to hang out with your friends, you better have a LAN party than play tabletop RPG". The fact that no-one raised an eyebrow to that is somewhat telling of this whole issue. And it is a pretty big issue for tabletop RPGs.
This was actually a point that I typed a reply to, but didn't post because the thread had moved on. Basically, while I don't know about anyone else here, I don't count being on the computer or going to movies as "being with friends" because there's a significantly greater lack of actual human interaction than if you're sitting around a table facing each other. I attribute this to the fact that a tabletop game is highly disruptable and controlled by the people at the table. A computer game puts you on a clock that you can't really just drop instantly, and a movie is even stricter because you can't stop after this level, or this fight.
Frank wrote:RPGs really should get more on the short pamphlet model they started in. People will read 200k words of backstory, but they want mechanics that they can fucking understand.
Exactly. To tie in: I don't particularly want to "spend time with friends" by learning the ruleset for the game we'll probably be able to get around to actually playing the next time we get together. That's lame.
Last edited by Maj on Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FrankTrollman wrote: RPGs really should get more on the short pamphlet model they started in. People will read 200k words of backstory, but they want mechanics that they can fucking understand.
In my experience many D&D fans ARE willing to spend a lot of time playing Pretty Princess Dressup with their character, going through powers and magical items and the like--they're just not willing to spend a lot of time reading about things that doesn't immediately pertain to their character. That is, people like being able to browse through catalogs for jetpacks and sports cars and Blu Ray players but they're not eager to read the instruction manuals for them.


That thing 4E did where people could competently play a character after printing out a couple of character sheets and getting a quick rules primer is what 5E should strive for, but 4th Edition doesn't go far enough. I mean, the Character Builder pretty much makes creating a character a lot easier, but if they are compete virgins to tabletop games they still need a book or a helping hand to get through the game.

The Flatline said that what 5E D&D really, really needs is a pamphlet of about 3-4 pages that's like 'The Idiot's Guide to D&D'. Where it walks you through the basics of combat and character creation/advancement.

I think that's a fucking brilliant idea. So let's expand on that.

Here's what 5E should sell with their books:
  • A Quickstart booklet. This thing should be dirt fucking cheap. As in if it costs more than 4.99 then you fucked up.
  • 3-4 pages consists of a 'Quik Rules' primer. Telling you to do things like roll attacks, move your character, use skills, etc.. Don't be super-detailed, the more experienced characters will tell you how it's done.
  • A double-page splash of the soon-to-be mentioned 12 characters. You get your best artist on this shit. These characters will be in a badass pose in a group shot and they will look GORGEOUS. Don't give them personalities/backstories, don't even give them names. They should just have appearances that suggest their profession and a page to turn to.
  • 12 character archetypes that go up to level 4, which should be more than enough to run a campaign. They are nearly filled-out character sheets, with a couple of blanks here and there for dynamic numbers such as attack bonuses or hit points. There will be a section in the rules primer telling you what to put there as maximums depending on your archetype.
  • Yes, I mean level 4. You give them the full sheets of a level 4 character, but you state that if someone is using a pre-made character that they ignore any abilities/feats/whatever that are not of their level.
  • Their equipment is pre-selected for them, though there are spaces to put in in case that they want a reward.
  • The Quik Start characters should be min-maxxed to keep within range of an organic character, but they should still be slightly worse than a real character. This is so that you can encourage the more competitive people to actually buy the book.
  • Quik Start characters are not duplicated on softpage. If you want more character sheets you need to go to the website and print out another one.
  • Everything should be made of a perforated card stock that they can just rip out. This includes the Rules Primer. The goal is to make it so that someone can fully participate at a low-level game with nothing but four pages front and back of card stock, a handful of dice, and a mechanical pencil.
  • Why such a minimalist approach? Because this being D&D, there will always be at least one fanboy/powergamer/grognard who actually brought the book along. The hardcover book should be CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR that it is their duty as experienced gamer and teammate to help their team members along. Meaning if someone has a problem or a question, they can go to you. Because you're on their team. The DM has the final word, but they're overworked as it is.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Hey, Maj, with this arrangement it kind of looks like Mario has the hots for your Avatar. :maj: :kindacool:
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Maj »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Hey, Maj, with this arrangement it kind of looks like Mario has the hots for your Avatar. :maj: :kindacool:
Yeah, kinda. Also, the :kindacool: seems to be enjoying the view, so to speak.

:tongue:
Lago wrote:I think that's a fucking brilliant idea. So let's expand on that.
If the goal is to explain the game to newbies, this is going to have to be carefully written. In my experience, every person I've taught the game to has needed a super basic primer that explains the game in terms of concepts more than mechanics.

For example, I've had to start at basics like what a roleplaying game is, what skill points are, etc. The most successful explanations are almost a roleplaying game in and of themselves:

Pretend you want to be Jackie Chan. He's a pretty tough guy, right? That toughness is related to "Constitution." Constitution determines how many hits you can take before going down (hit points), how well you can withstand bad stuff like poisons and diseases (fort save)... Etm.

And once the game is described that way, it totally sticks (and they're more willing to listen to details of more detailed mechanics). If the explanation is straight numbers, the attention span wanders and they don't stay interested.

So if the goal is to write for people who are new to the game, writing hard and fast mechanics probably isn't a good idea.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I totally agree, which is why I budgeted a tiny 4-page sub-booklet front and back (it should be a folder that's attached by perforated edges to the booklet) to put the primer in. That should of course be more than enough space to run people through the rules without it being totally dry.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Maj »

Gotcha.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

That said, my Quick Start suggestion is for in addition to selling a boxed set. There's no way you can have a Quick Start booklet for a Dungeon Master or a Monster Manual, but you CAN have two 40 page books with a decent selection.

The Quick Start is for people who want to join games that aren't running the Boxed Set or don't have it.
Frank wrote:RPGs really should get more on the short pamphlet model they started in. People will read 200k words of backstory, but they want mechanics that they can fucking understand.
I strongly recommend that in the future, major D&D books should have a ratio of no fewer than a half a page of art for every 1.5 pages in the book. Sometimes you'll want to have more than that. The core rulesbooks should have three double-page spreads in them. I'm not kidding.

People are seriously willing to read long amounts of prose if they come with pretty pictures. The pictures help sell the story and make your book feel less word-heavy, even if you didn't actually use the pictures to replace the description. I mean, really, how many times have you heard the phrase 'does it have pictures' when talking about elementary-school reading? Well, for fuck's sake, you'll have to sell your product to a new generation sooner or later and having pretty pictures makes your words easier to digest. The earlier trend of having a half page of pictures for every 4 pages worked for that era, but people want more bang for their buck.

That said, the current 4E trend of having pretty pictures that don't really conform to what's going on in the text needs to fucking stop. I'm okay with having a few genre pictures now and then, but remember that your artwork is supposed to sell what the reader is actually reading. Like I'm picking up Martial Power and next to the level 5 Fighter powers there's a badass picture of a seafaring woman. It's a cool picture, but as far as I can see it has nothing to do with any of the powers printed. You know, aside from being blatantly fucking recycled from Stormwrack.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Zinegata »

Kobajagrande wrote:- I don't recall the timeline exactly, but I think computer RPGs did not damage the tabletop RPG industry - if nothing, they strengthened it. I think it went a long period of nothing (time of TSRs AD&D), then came Diablo, then Baldur's Gate, and then 3E, which pretty much revitalized the tabletop industry. I'd be more inclined to say BG and Fallout brought in much more players to the tabletop then they drew away.
The golden age of cRPGs coincided with a comeback for D&D (the 2000s). The problem is, the comeback didn't return D&D to its original lofty heights. And most people who played Diablo and Baldur's Gate never played tabletop.

My main point is that by 2000, tabletop RPGs had a ton of competition. Computer games, CCGs, Euros, and other stuff. That's why despite fantasy going mainstream, it hit a ceiling.
Why that happened with those RPGs and not with WoW... If I had to guess, I'd say its because they were a different sort of product. Computer RPGs had finite usability; you'd play them, you'd finish them, and then they would keep you wanting more of the same sort of experience. What could provide that? Well, tabletop RPGs.
Except that they simply keep publishing new cRPGs. Back then, it was Final Fantasy VII and VIII. We're now up to XIII. People who used to play Baldur's Gate? We now have Dragon Age.

cRPGs are doing extremely well despite its "finite" usability. They simply make more.
- More importantly, I think you severely underestimate the fact that the model customer changed. And it changed a lot.
For one, people associate differently nowadays. I don't remember which argument it was on this board, but someone said something along the lines of "If you want to hang out with your friends, you better have a LAN party than play tabletop RPG". The fact that no-one raised an eyebrow to that is somewhat telling of this whole issue. And it is a pretty big issue for tabletop RPGs.
Then, for various reasons, a lot of rpg gaming went online, and tabletop RPGs are ill-suited for that. This might be purely personal nonsense, but I think a big part of RPG is the interactions that players have around the game, and online chat is just not good enough for that.
I didn't mention the online RPGing crowd (even though I am part of that crowd), because I honestly don't think we're that big. There's a very specific type of person who's attacted to online tabletop, and the profile is a bit different from the standard tabletop RPGer.
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zinegata »

FrankTrollman wrote:Well, books have been getting longer and longer, and the amount of words that an average person (or even a specifically literate person) reads every week has grown tremendously over the last few decades. People simply expect more from books than they used to. In Search of Lost Time by Proust is less than half of the Wheel of Time, and fantasy fans these days churn through the entire cycle in a few weeks while still going to work.

That being said, table top RPGs have met or exceeded even that trend. The 4e Core Books are about as long as Atlas Shrugged, and nWoD is over ten million words long. That's obscene.

RPGs really should get more on the short pamphlet model they started in. People will read 200k words of backstory, but they want mechanics that they can fucking understand.

-Username17
Ease of play is a valid concern. Reducing word count is a way to do this, but that's also partly why I propose that D&D move to the pre-order model.

With the pre-order model, small books become more viable. You don't have to make each book have something for everybody anymore. You can make each book be really focused on one particular aspect of D&D, and if enough people pre-order it, it gets published either as a PDF or as an actual book.

So instead of having to add several (bad) prestige classes to "Guide to the Frozen Wastes" to attract players, you can now devote the whole book to setting information. If enough people just want that, it will get enough pre-orders and it will sell.

I'm leery about Quick Start guides because I frankly think they ultimately become deceptive. People think it's a game with 5 pages of rules, but to really get into it you need 100. That's the same sort of problem Battletech runs into from what I hear.
Last edited by Zinegata on Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheFlatline »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: RPGs really should get more on the short pamphlet model they started in. People will read 200k words of backstory, but they want mechanics that they can fucking understand.
In my experience many D&D fans ARE willing to spend a lot of time playing Pretty Princess Dressup with their character, going through powers and magical items and the like--they're just not willing to spend a lot of time reading about things that doesn't immediately pertain to their character. That is, people like being able to browse through catalogs for jetpacks and sports cars and Blu Ray players but they're not eager to read the instruction manuals for them.


That thing 4E did where people could competently play a character after printing out a couple of character sheets and getting a quick rules primer is what 5E should strive for, but 4th Edition doesn't go far enough. I mean, the Character Builder pretty much makes creating a character a lot easier, but if they are compete virgins to tabletop games they still need a book or a helping hand to get through the game.

The Flatline said that what 5E D&D really, really needs is a pamphlet of about 3-4 pages that's like 'The Idiot's Guide to D&D'. Where it walks you through the basics of combat and character creation/advancement.

I think that's a fucking brilliant idea. So let's expand on that.

Here's what 5E should sell with their books:
  • A Quickstart booklet. This thing should be dirt fucking cheap. As in if it costs more than 4.99 then you fucked up.
  • 3-4 pages consists of a 'Quik Rules' primer. Telling you to do things like roll attacks, move your character, use skills, etc.. Don't be super-detailed, the more experienced characters will tell you how it's done.
  • A double-page splash of the soon-to-be mentioned 12 characters. You get your best artist on this shit. These characters will be in a badass pose in a group shot and they will look GORGEOUS. Don't give them personalities/backstories, don't even give them names. They should just have appearances that suggest their profession and a page to turn to.
  • 12 character archetypes that go up to level 4, which should be more than enough to run a campaign. They are nearly filled-out character sheets, with a couple of blanks here and there for dynamic numbers such as attack bonuses or hit points. There will be a section in the rules primer telling you what to put there as maximums depending on your archetype.
  • Yes, I mean level 4. You give them the full sheets of a level 4 character, but you state that if someone is using a pre-made character that they ignore any abilities/feats/whatever that are not of their level.
  • Their equipment is pre-selected for them, though there are spaces to put in in case that they want a reward.
  • The Quik Start characters should be min-maxxed to keep within range of an organic character, but they should still be slightly worse than a real character. This is so that you can encourage the more competitive people to actually buy the book.
  • Quik Start characters are not duplicated on softpage. If you want more character sheets you need to go to the website and print out another one.
  • Everything should be made of a perforated card stock that they can just rip out. This includes the Rules Primer. The goal is to make it so that someone can fully participate at a low-level game with nothing but four pages front and back of card stock, a handful of dice, and a mechanical pencil.
  • Why such a minimalist approach? Because this being D&D, there will always be at least one fanboy/powergamer/grognard who actually brought the book along. The hardcover book should be CRYSTAL FUCKING CLEAR that it is their duty as experienced gamer and teammate to help their team members along. Meaning if someone has a problem or a question, they can go to you. Because you're on their team. The DM has the final word, but they're overworked as it is.
Don't forget melding your index in with the booklet. If you talk about casting spells, reference the page number and book (PHB 134) at the end of your bullet point on casting spells.

That way, you can list the mechanics of an option (like grappling) and then include the die roll (d20 + STR + size modifier, contested), and then link to the page in the relevant book (PHB 78) in order to be able to flip directly to the relevant section. It would look like this:

Grappling (PHB 78):
Immobilizes target. Melee Range. d20 + STR + size modifier, contested

If I have to go to an index, I'm already annoyed. Merging the index with the character sheet/primer retains relevancy beyond the first 4 levels.

For 99% of beginning gamers, the above grappling listing is enough to remind you it's there, how to do it, and that it's an option. You'll use an option more often when it's easy for you to do so, less so when you have to flip into a rulebook, flip to the index, look for the most likely page number, thumb that page, flip back, skim to see if it's what you need, jump back to the index if it isn't, and finally read the fucking rule.

Dark Heresy's DM screen actually is great for this. In addition to the common charts, it lists page numbers for all the fiddly shit you may need to know that doesn't have room on the screen (like critical hit tables). If I *do* have to flip to the book, I know which page I'm going to, precisely. It cuts down on downtime immensely.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Zinegata wrote:I'm leery about Quick Start guides because I frankly think they ultimately become deceptive. People think it's a game with 5 pages of rules, but to really get into it you need 100.
That's fine. You get your 12 silvers for people who only want to play a low-level one-shot or two. If they're not satisfied, no harm no foul. BUT:

A) For people who want to make a character that's not the default stock or want to go beyond level 5 they need to buy the book. That's intentional.

B) Even if your one-shot guy decides to give D&D a pass after a couple of games, one or more of the other people they were with might want to play. As far as I can see, there's no way you can get the D&D experience with less than 4, MAYBE 3 people (including DM). Even if you have one person bail out, the amount of time you actually had a group together might hook one of the remaining people.

You won't hook anyone though unless you at least take the first step of actually getting a game together for them to sample. And a lot of people, even nerds, won't play D&D unless it's something that they can pick up in 30 minutes or less.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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