Moments in your gaming career that should have told you....

[Zinegata]

It was certainly absurd.

My owl's name was "Bear", and I would refer to him as "my owl, Bear" with a very brief pause on that comma.

Oh, Bear was a damage machine! 1d2-2 damage can really wear down those unclassed goblins (4hp) and kobolds (2hp) we kept fighting in the Sunless Citadel adventure.

In addition to our primary foes for the first few levels being dire rats, goblins and kobolds, there were other contributing factors for the owl being a major contributor to combats.

We had a 1/2 XP rule which meant it took twice as long to level up. DM preferred low level stuff which is easier to control... campaign explicitly will not exceed level 10. So we were doing goblin and kobold fights for far longer than normal in most DnD campaigns I've played or heard of.

We had an insufferable rule that all new characters must start at level 1 (after several years I finally managed to get it changed to "start at lowest party character level"). So my halfling illusionist had a few levels on other characters and that helped buff up the familiar comparatively.

My illusionist had a Con of 17 and rolled well for HP. I wound up having enough HP that even 1/2 my HP on the familiar was higher than some characters. With my BAB and the owl's okay combat bonus, he had the highest attack bonus in the party for a while too.

My illusionist would have done the frontline attacking/tanking himself, but for a while he had acquired some sort of curse to his vision that among other things gave him a penalty to attack, which he really didn't need since he was also wielding the +1 morningstar (our only magic weapon) that he wasn't proficient with since nobody else in the party either wanted it or could not lift it. My wizard mostly moved around to help the rogue flank and made sure not to actually swing the weapon since then I'd be on the bad end of the fumble stick.

The party changed composition frequently with players coming and going, but this was the most constant group in addition to my deep halfling illusionist.

Our leader. A shield bashing human paladin who had a small shield on one arm for defense, a large shield on the other arm for bashing, and carried around a tower shield on his back which he would sometimes take out when we needed the cover (3e game). Usual tactic was to shield bash opponents into walls to knock them down.

A twf-dagger stabbing halfling rogue/ranger/fighter. She was originally going to be pure rogue, but we had *another* rogue halfling (a psychotic patterned after Belkar from OotS) already and she decided to try filling the shoes of the fighter and barbarian who had left our group. And then our other rogue halfling died, unsurprisingly considering his reckless behavior.

Low-low str gnome cleric who did not want to be encumbered, as he wore light armor, had the Dash and Run feats in order to run away faster. My wizard has to carry around his crossbow and bolts for him since he cannot carry it himself without getting pushed into medium encumberance.

A wimpy human wizard (played by the former psycho rogue halfling player) who did not roll well for hit points and his spell selection was almost exactly the same as mine... and he was lower level. It was really hard not to show him up in combat as he was basically an inferior version of my character as far as mechanics go.

*face palm*

Sadly our leader the shield bashing paladin died on a night when Bear didn't roll well on spot/listen checks and some plant construct thing coup de grace'd him in his sleep (he had grown disappointed with his character and didn't mind it really... otherwise a really crappy way to die). At that point in time the remainder of the party was halflings and gnomes and nobody could carry his heavy body anywhere. Our next adventure was recovering his body and then after a state funeral and parade, taking it to Rappan Athuk to bury him there (it is the Dungeon of Graves afterall). In retrospect, we were really stupid to go to Rappan Athuk with that party. God bless obscuring mist, invisibility and a strong desire to run away.

It was a really fun campaign, we're just hopelessly ineffective in combat.
Actually we are still playing it, we have just been on a hiatus since my wife had been on bed-rest for the past couple months.

And of course, the critical fumbles. Oh. On the wimpy goblins and kobolds and what not, whenever they rolled a 1 and then "confirmed" their fumble (i.e. they rolled attack again and if they missed it was a critical fumble... kind of a reverse crit), almost always killed the guy who fumbled, and sometimes killed their buddy too. My owl would just fly past them all, draw AoOs, and watch them stab each other trying to get it. I'd say our DM was softballing us except I don't think he realized how helpless our party really was. We certainly did not fare well when we rolled critical fumbles either (perhaps a contributing factor as to why my non-direct damage caster kept surviving whereas the melee guys had a tragic turnover rate).

This is both the saddest and most awesome summary I've read about any adventuring party ever.

WIN!

[RobbyPants]

Okay, next point for discussion is that people who tend to wear black (and could possibly be called "goths" back in the day, before emo took over) tend to make shitty DMs.

That's a given since they make bad human beings.

Now we're talking! * Waits for derail with popcorn. *

I don't think all targets are equally likely to hit.

And instead of fiddling with rolling a d6 every time, just reverse the numbers.

That's how it's done in WFRP, and never had any problem. Are there like other die rolls involved in hitting besides the percentile roll?

2E D&D tried this for crits in Combat & Tactics. It got seriously complicated for various creature types and facing, but for humanoids, you rolled d10:

1-2) Left leg
3-4) Right leg
5) Abdomen
6-7) Torso
8) Left arm
9) Right arm
10) Head

If you were two sizes smaller, you rolled d6, and if you were two sizes larger, you rolled d6+4.

[Datawolf]

The only thing that irks me about critical fumble rules is that they've always struck me as being entirely unecessary. Quite often, simply missing is bad enough since your opponent gets another chance to kill you. They also tend to bog down play a lot and when it comes to any game, forget Rule Zero... remember Rule Negative One: Don't waste my fucking time.

Also, as someone else pointed out earlier (I think), insane and complex critical hit/fumble rules increase the amount of randomness in the game which favours the underdog (the opponents of the PCs, that is). Since the PCs will get into more fights than any other characters in the game, they will get hit by more criticals and suffer more critical fumbles. Sure, they'll also score more critical hits, but I don't really think that would justify using complex, arcane critical hit/fumble rules that can result in a PC getting crippled, maimed or killed. Unless you're playing Call of Cthulhu, in which case that's all part of the fun.

[TheFlatline]

I'm looking at a lot of games right now in my collection, and most of them have critical failure rules. Some (like SR3) I don't believe have critical success rules in them. The only game that has rules-as-written no critical fumbles... is D20.

[Roy]

I'm looking at a lot of games right now in my collection, and most of them have critical failure rules. Some (like SR3) I don't believe have critical success rules in them. The only game that has rules-as-written no critical fumbles... is D20.

So... most people can't do math? I am unsurprised.

[Princess]

DnD have critical fumbles as an optional rule in DMG. And also roll of 1 is always miss even if you're 40th level straight-bab attacking collossal paralyzed target in touch AC.

[Shazbot79]

Welp now this topic is just flat-out about discrimination (if it ever wasn't). Wearing black does not make you "goth" or "emo" any more than it makes you Johnny Cash. And the idea that it makes you a bad GM is even more specious.

See...a DM dressed head to toe in black on game night is a sure sign of "grimdark" aesthetics...which is a thing that I personally avoid like the plague.

Why?

Because I don't want to be in a game that plays like this:

DM: You are all gathered in opposite corners of the tavern...what do you do?

Player 1: Darkshadow Grimcloak sits at his table, drinking a chilled glass of baby's blood and continues to brood menacingly.

Player 2: Grimshadow Bloodraven sits at his table...directing his undead servants to bring his meal from the kitchen....which is babies. For his meal. Grimshadow Bloodraven is eating babies. While brooding menacingly.

Player 3: Blooddeath Darkblack carves a slab off of a dead hooker to eat. A dead baby hooker. To eat. While masturbating with a crucifix. And menacingly brooding.

Me: What??? Huh?? Louder please???

DM: Okay...everyone roll to brood.

Player 1: Okay! I've got a +15 to brooding!

Player 2: I've got +17 to brooding!

Player 1: Goddamnit! I want to make a new character!

Me: What's happening? Hello? What am I rolling for? I can't hear anything over the death metal!

Basically I want my games to resemble Avatar: the Last Airbender, or Indiana Jones, or Star Wars...not someone's trite anti-social revenge fantasy.

Plus black trenchcoats and undercut ponytails look fucking stupid.

Just sayin'.

[Prak]

it ain't the clothes, you people just know idiots. I'm always dressed in black (or damn near, at least) and I have never ran a grimdark in my life (and only played in one, but that was less grimdark and more gangsta fantasy. IT didn't last long, the dm was... an idiot, I can only assume, seeing as how we were seriously playing fantasy pimps and hookers)

[TheFlatline]

DnD have critical fumbles as an optional rule in DMG. And also roll of 1 is always miss even if you're 40th level straight-bab attacking collossal paralyzed target in touch AC.

True, but it's not a fumble/critical failure. It's just a miss. And only for the attack roll I believe.

It's frightening to say that D&D has the least wonky critical failure rolls of most of the games out there.

Though I'll give credit to nWOD and SR4. The odds of you botching are almost nil, and in nWOD's case, you know ahead of time if the roll you're going to be making is going to botch.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Oh, look, even the most maligned of subcultures can find another maligned subculture to dump on.

[ckafrica]

Shazbot has a point. While black isn't necessarily a sign of wankerdom it is often a symptom. And we all know exactly what that all black look is. It's not the Preacher(as in Garth Ennis) look. And an undercut ponytail is possibly the lamest haircut of all time. Fuck even a chelsea is less lame.

[Koumei]

I was just throwing a random bullshit statement out there to provoke conversation, so as to move past whatever the previous finished debate was about. No it was not a social experiment.

That said, all the true goths I know all happen to wear black basically all the time, and are terrible DMs. But that's a small enough sample size to be a coincidence.

[Shazbot79]

And an undercut ponytail is possibly the lamest haircut of all time. Fuck even a chelsea is less lame.

No kidding. It's a fucking bizarro mullet.

[CatharzGodfoot]

"Thank goodness they aren't making fun of our hair anymore."

[Neeeek]

On the original topic, I once played in a 3.5 game where, after dying (either the first or second time. I can't remember. I played either 3 or 4 characters total in that campaign), I made a new character. The character was basically a Captain America expy (shield-wielding uber-good guy), though I didn't realize that until after I built the character

This character began play in a pitch-black room completely naked. With a couple of pretty weak undead guys in it. Now, this wouldn't have been a problem for said character if he had anything resembling a weapon. But the 2 enemies in the room were completely immune to subdual damage, so the character had no chance of ever harming them.

Luckily, the character in question had the domino rush ability from whatever tactical feat that was, and kept bullrushing them into each other and knocking them down until the rest of the party (who were fighting a different enemy in the next room) finished up their fight and came and saved my character's ass.

I seem to recall that character not living very long. Don't remember how he died though. I think he charged a pyro-hydra with disastrous results.

[Ganbare Gincun]

"Thank goodness they aren't making fun of our hair anymore."

[Prak]

On the original topic, I once played in a 3.5 game where, after dying (either the first or second time. I can't remember. I played either 3 or 4 characters total in that campaign), I made a new character. The character was basically a Captain America expy (shield-wielding uber-good guy), though I didn't realize that until after I built the character

This character began play in a pitch-black room completely naked. With a couple of pretty weak undead guys in it. Now, this wouldn't have been a problem for said character if he had anything resembling a weapon. But the 2 enemies in the room were completely immune to subdual damage, so the character had no chance of ever harming them.

Luckily, the character in question had the domino rush ability from whatever tactical feat that was, and kept bullrushing them into each other and knocking them down until the rest of the party (who were fighting a different enemy in the next room) finished up their fight and came and saved my character's ass.

I seem to recall that character not living very long. Don't remember how he died though. I think he charged a pyro-hydra with disastrous results.

on the first encounter, why not bullrush into walls? Does that do subdual? (honestly doesn't know)

[erik]

on the first encounter, why not bullrush into walls? Does that do subdual? (honestly doesn't know)

I believe you're thinking of knock back attacks for hitting people into walls for damage.

Bull rushing people into walls just stops the bull rush there.

With the Shock Trooper feat, Domino Rush lets you bull rush someone into another person and then use a trip attack against both of em.

Now, you can take a -4 penalty to attack and punch for normal damage. Not that 1d3+Str is that hot. I suppose you could use power attack and shock trooper. That would have cake-walked the combat if the foes were otherwise weak and they didn't have power attack (assuming you could actually set up any charges).

[CCarter]

You can take a -4 to hit with an unarmed attack to do lethal instead of subdual...Pg 139 PHB. Doesn't need any particular feats/combat training.

[Neurosis]

Welp now this topic is just flat-out about discrimination (if it ever wasn't). Wearing black does not make you "goth" or "emo" any more than it makes you Johnny Cash. And the idea that it makes you a bad GM is even more specious.

See...a DM dressed head to toe in black on game night is a sure sign of "grimdark" aesthetics...which is a thing that I personally avoid like the plague.

Why?

Because I don't want to be in a game that plays like this:

DM: You are all gathered in opposite corners of the tavern...what do you do?

Player 1: Darkshadow Grimcloak sits at his table, drinking a chilled glass of baby's blood and continues to brood menacingly.

Player 2: Grimshadow Bloodraven sits at his table...directing his undead servants to bring his meal from the kitchen....which is babies. For his meal. Grimshadow Bloodraven is eating babies. While brooding menacingly.

Player 3: Blooddeath Darkblack carves a slab off of a dead hooker to eat. A dead baby hooker. To eat. While masturbating with a crucifix. And menacingly brooding.

Me: What??? Huh?? Louder please???

DM: Okay...everyone roll to brood.

Player 1: Okay! I've got a +15 to brooding!

Player 2: I've got +17 to brooding!

Player 1: Goddamnit! I want to make a new character!

Me: What's happening? Hello? What am I rolling for? I can't hear anything over the death metal!

Basically I want my games to resemble Avatar: the Last Airbender, or Indiana Jones, or Star Wars...not someone's trite anti-social revenge fantasy.

Plus black trenchcoats and undercut ponytails look fucking stupid.

Just sayin'.

I think we are kind of operating from a failure of understanding on what "wearing black" means. Which is probably my fault.

It obviously goes without saying that I would never want to play in anything like your purposefully retarded example where everyone is a creepy pervert for teh lulz.

But...extrapolate on what 'head to toe in black' means. If it involves (on men) make up, hair dye, affected pallor, or wearing a trench coat indoors/when it is not winter, then it is probably not what I was referring to when I said wearing black doesn't mean anything. I literally meant, like the color of your tee shirt and jeans does not mean anything. If I wear a black tee shirt, black sneakers, and blue jeans one day and a similar ensemble only with black jeans the next day, I do not suddenly transform from a good GM into a bad one.

Basically I want my games to resemble Avatar: the Last Airbender, or Indiana Jones, or Star Wars...not someone's trite anti-social revenge fantasy.

Your contention that anything that is not vapid pop culture trash must be someone's trite anti-social revenge fantasy is pretty ridiculous. It would be like me saying that anything that doesn't resemble Seven, Gone Baby Gone, or Dr. Strangelove must be vapid pop culture trash.

You say you have observed a trend that "dark = shitty". I can't gainsay that, because if say you have observed such a trend then that is that.

But in the realm of factual statements:

Dark does not preclude good. Nor does 'bright' guarantee good.

And I know nothing about Avatar so I don't have a great platform for hating it, but the latter Indiana Jones movie and the latter Star Wars movies were fucking retarded in the extreme, and even the earlier Indiana Jones/Star Wars movies were not exactly great cinema. Gaming does not always have to aspire to be a fun popcorn flick even if that is its standard mode. If your players (and you) are not retarded, darker themes can be explored without it degenerating into grimdark wangst.

In general:

I want Shadowrun to be, in tone, like The Usual Suspects or Reservoir Dogs. Star Wars/Indiana Jones can kind of go fuck itself.

And in the rare event I feel like playing D&D, I want that to be more like (in tone) A Song of Ice and Fire than (appropriate example of cheerful high fantasy). (I am not making a statement about high magic/low magic, only about tone.)

I have never seen Grimdark Bloodraven McBabyeater or any of his brood at any one of my games, not even the WoD/Call of Cthulhu ones. If this type of player/character actually exists outside of the collective subconscious, I consider myself blessed.

I was just throwing a random bullshit statement out there to provoke conversation, so as to move past whatever the previous finished debate was about. No it was not a social experiment.

Welp. I think you have achieved your objective if it was to provoke conversation.

That said, all the true goths I know all happen to wear black basically all the time, and are terrible DMs. But that's a small enough sample size to be a coincidence.

Wearing black often or always does not require that someone be a 'goth'. I wear black often (although not always or exclusively) and am about as far from that fucking bullshit as any human being can possibly be.

And yes, it is indeed a small enough sample size to be a coincidence, although I am wary of anyone who self identifies as an anything (i.e. a goth, etc.).

[Prak]

as I've said, I wear damn near all black. Most days in the summer, I'm wearing black boots, black cargo pants, a black tee, either from Jinx, or with some nerdy thing on it, and a lightweight black over shirt. In winter, swap the over shirt for an increasingly ratty NMBC sweatshirt. And I wear a bandana tied over my long hair which is usually grey scales, black with some design, or has skulls.

Most people would call me goth, and I don't really argue it, though I usually just say "misfit"(and not in reference to the shitty band).

What I'm not is a stereotype. I just kinda sorta dress like one.

And while my games will usually have lots of undead and demons around, and I like playing necromancers and demonologists, and bringing atheistic, agnostic, misotheistic, etc ideas into games (and using "Pelor the Burning Hate") my games work out more like... hm... I hate to use a barely known show as an example, but probably pretty close to Cowboy Bebop. Yes there's some darkness, but overall? Eh.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I wear black most of the time. I don't really resemble a goth though. When someone is wearing lots of leather and buckles and chains; I just think when people dreass like that they're really trying to say "Please, don't look at my crotch".

[Prak]

what, I can't wear three wallet chains because I like chains and sounding like Jacob Marley when I walk?

[PhoneLobster]

I haven't worn all black since an embarrassing incident where myself and the Matrix both turned up at the cinema wearing the same outfit.

[Maj]

I unintentionally wore all black to some sort of public event back in high school - I chose the clothes because they were comfortable. The result was a bunch of people asking me who died.

So I go out of my way to not wear all black, which sucks because my favorite shirts are both black, and my favorite skirt is black.