[FCCC] Full Casting Core Classes

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:47 pm

I decided to write up alternative core classes based upon the premise that the best way to balance other classes against the power of full casters was to make every class a full caster with 0-9 level spells.

I copied the 3.5 core spells from d20srd. I figure rather than giving spells at different levels, it is cleaner to just have one version only per each spell. So I did my best to delete out duplicate versions of spells (usually keeping the lowest level version).

I’ll refer to these lists and cherry pick out of them appropriate spells for each class, and then tweak class features a bit to keep them interesting through 20 levels.

Complete Spell List:
Level 0 Spells:

* Acid Splash
* Arcane Mark
* Create Water
* Cure Minor Wounds
* Dancing Lights
* Daze
* Detect Magic
* Detect Poison
* Disrupt Undead
* Flare
* Ghost Sound
* Guidance
* Inflict Minor Wounds
* Know Direction
* Light
* Lullaby
* Mage Hand
* Mending
* Message
* Open/Close
* Prestidigitation
* Purify Food and Drink
* Ray of Frost
* Read Magic
* Resistance
* Summon Instrument
* Touch of Fatigue
* Virtue

Level 1 Spells:

* Alarm
* Animal Messenger
* Animate Rope
* Bane
* Bless
* Bless Water
* Bless Weapon
* Burning Hands
* Calm Animals
* Cause Fear
* Charm Animal
* Charm Person
* Chill Touch
* Color Spray
* Command
* Comprehend Languages
* Confusion, Lesser
* Cure Light Wounds
* Curse Water
* Deathwatch
* Delay Poison
* Detect Animals or Plants
* Detect [Alignment]
* Detect Secret Doors
* Detect Snares and Pits
* Detect Undead
* Disguise Self
* Divine Favor
* Doom
* Endure Elements
* Enlarge Person
* Entangle
* Entropic Shield
* Erase
* Expeditious Retreat
* Faerie Fire
* Feather Fall
* Floating Disk
* Goodberry
* Grease
* Hide from Animals
* Hide from Undead
* Hold Portal
* Hypnotism
* Identify
* Inflict Light Wounds
* Jump
* Longstrider
* Mage Armor
* Magic Aura
* Magic Fang
* Magic Missile
* Magic Mouth
* Magic Stone
* Magic Weapon
* Mount
* Obscure Object
* Obscuring Mist
* Pass without Trace
* Produce Flame
* Protection from [Alignment]
* Ray of Enfeeblement
* Read Magic
* Reduce Person
* Remove Fear
* Sanctuary
* Shield
* Shield of Faith
* Shillelagh
* Shocking Grasp
* Silent Image
* Sleep
* Speak with Animals
* Summon Monster I
* Summon Nature's Ally I
* True Strike
* Undetectable Alignment
* Unseen Servant
* Ventriloquism

Level 2 Spells:

* Acid Arrow
* Aid
* Align Weapon
* Alter Self
* Animal Trance
* Arcane Lock
* Augury
* Barkskin
* Bear's Endurance
* Blindness/Deafness
* Blur
* Bull's Strength
* Calm Emotions
* Cat's Grace
* Chill Metal
* Command Undead
* Consecrate
* Continual Flame
* Cure Moderate Wounds
* Darkness
* Darkvision
* Daze Monster
* Desecrate
* Detect Thoughts
* Eagle's Splendor
* Enthrall
* False Life
* Find Traps
* Fire Trap
* Flame Blade
* Flaming Sphere
* Fog Cloud
* Fox's Cunning
* Gentle Repose
* Ghoul Touch
* Glitterdust
* Gust of Wind
* Heat Metal
* Heroism
* Hideous Laughter
* Hold Animal
* Hold Person
* Hypnotic Pattern
* Illusory Script
* Inflict Moderate Wounds
* Invisibility
* Knock
* Levitate
* Locate Object
* Make Whole
* Minor Image
* Mirror Image
* Misdirection
* Owl's Wisdom
* Phantom Trap
* Protection from Arrows
* Pyrotechnics
* Rage
* Reduce Animal
* Remove Paralysis
* Resist Energy
* Restoration, Lesser
* Rope Trick
* Scare
* Scorching Ray
* See Invisibility
* Shatter
* Shield Other
* Silence
* Snare
* Soften Earth and Stone
* Sound Burst
* Speak with Plants
* Spectral Hand
* Spider Climb
* Spike Growth
* Spiritual Weapon
* Status
* Suggestion
* Summon Monster II
* Summon Nature's Ally II
* Summon Swarm
* Tongues
* Touch of Idiocy
* Tree Shape
* Warp Wood
* Web
* Whispering Wind
* Wind Wall
* Wood Shape
* Zone of Truth

Level 3 Spells:

* Animate Dead
* Arcane Sight
* Bestow Curse
* Blink
* Call Lightning
* Charm Monster
* Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
* Command Plants
* Confusion
* Contagion
* Create Food and Water
* Crushing Despair
* Cure Serious Wounds
* Daylight
* Deep Slumber
* Deeper Darkness
* Diminish Plants
* Discern Lies
* Dispel Magic
* Displacement
* Dominate Animal
* Explosive Runes
* Fear
* Fireball
* Flame Arrow
* Fly
* Gaseous Form
* Geas, Lesser
* Glibness
* Glyph of Warding
* Good Hope
* Halt Undead
* Haste
* Heal Mount
* Helping Hand
* Inflict Serious Wounds
* Invisibility Purge
* Invisibility Sphere
* Keen Edge
* Lightning Bolt
* Magic Circle against [Alignment]
* Magic Fang, Greater
* Magic Vestment
* Magic Weapon, Greater
* Major Image
* Meld into Stone
* Neutralize Poison
* Nondetection
* Phantom Steed
* Plant Growth
* Poison
* Prayer
* Protection from Energy
* Quench
* Ray of Exhaustion
* Remove Blindness/Deafness
* Remove Curse
* Remove Disease
* Repel Vermin
* Scrying
* Sculpt Sound
* Searing Light
* Secret Page
* Sepia Snake Sigil
* Shrink Item
* Sleet Storm
* Slow
* Speak with Dead
* Stinking Cloud
* Stone Shape
* Summon Monster III
* Summon Nature's Ally III
* Tiny Hut
* Vampiric Touch
* Water Breathing
* Water Walk

Level 4 Spells:

* Air Walk
* Animal Growth
* Antiplant Shell
* Arcane Eye
* Black Tentacles
* Blight
* Break Enchantment
* Commune with Nature
* Control Water
* Cure Critical Wounds
* Death Ward
* Detect Scrying
* Dimension Door
* Dimensional Anchor
* Dismissal
* Divination
* Divine Power
* Dominate Person
* Enervation
* Enlarge Person, Mass
* Fire Shield
* Flame Strike
* Freedom of Movement
* Giant Vermin
* Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
* Hallucinatory Terrain
* Hold Monster
* Holy Sword
* Ice Storm
* Illusory Wall
* Imbue with Spell Ability
* Inflict Critical Wounds
* Invisibility, Greater
* Legend Lore
* Mark of Justice
* Minor Creation
* Mnemonic Enhancer
* Modify Memory
* Phantasmal Killer
* Planar Ally, Lesser
* Rainbow Pattern
* Reduce Person, Mass
* Reincarnate
* Resilient Sphere
* Restoration
* Rusting Grasp
* Secure Shelter
* Sending
* Shadow Conjuration
* Shout
* Solid Fog
* Spell Immunity
* Spike Stones
* Stoneskin
* Summon Monster IV
* Summon Nature's Ally IV
* Tree Stride
* Wall of Fire
* Wall of Ice
* Zone of Silence

Level 5 Spells:

* Atonement
* Awaken
* Baleful Polymorph
* Call Lightning Storm
* Cloudkill
* Command, Greater
* Commune
* Cone of Cold
* Contact Other Plane
* Control Winds
* Cure Light Wounds, Mass
* Dispel Chaos
* Dispel Evil
* Dispel Good
* Dispel Law
* Dispel Magic, Greater
* Disrupting Weapon
* Dominate Person
* Dream
* Fabricate
* False Vision
* Feeblemind
* Hallow
* Heroism, Greater
* Hold Monster
* Inflict Light Wounds, Mass
* Insect Plague
* Interposing Hand
* Mage's Faithful Hound
* Mage's Private Sanctum
* Magic Jar
* Major Creation
* Mind Fog
* Mirage Arcana
* Mislead
* Nightmare
* Overland Flight
* Passwall
* Permanency
* Persistent Image
* Planar Binding, Lesser
* Plane Shift
* Prying Eyes
* Raise Dead
* Righteous Might
* Secret Chest
* Seeming
* Shadow Evocation
* Shadow Walk
* Slay Living
* Song of Discord
* Spell Resistance
* Summon Monster V
* Summon Nature's Ally V
* Symbol of Pain
* Symbol of Sleep
* Telekinesis
* Telepathic Bond
* Teleport
* Transmute Rock and Mud
* True Seeing
* Unhallow
* Wall of Force
* Wall of Stone
* Wall of Thorns
* Waves of Fatigue

Level 6 Spells:

* Acid Fog
* Analyze Dweomer
* Animate Objects
* Antilife Shell
* Antimagic Field
* Banishment
* Bear's Endurance, Mass
* Blade Barrier
* Bull's Strength, Mass
* Cat's Grace, Mass
* Chain Lightning
* Circle of Death
* Contingency
* Create Undead
* Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
* Disintegrate
* Eagle's Splendor, Mass
* Eyebite
* Find the Path
* Fire Seeds
* Flesh to Stone
* Forbiddance
* Forceful Hand
* Fox's Cunning, Mass
* Freezing Sphere
* Geas/Quest
* Globe of Invulnerability
* Glyph of Warding, Greater
* Guards and Wards
* Harm
* Heal
* Heroes' Feast
* Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
* Ironwood
* Liveoak
* Mage's Lucubration
* Move Earth
* Owl's Wisdom, Mass
* Permanent Image
* Planar Ally
* Planar Binding
* Programmed Image
* Project Image
* Repel Wood
* Repulsion
* Scrying, Greater
* Shout, Greater
* Spellstaff
* Stone Tell
* Stone to Flesh
* Suggestion, Mass
* Summon Monster VI
* Summon Nature's Ally VI
* Symbol of Fear
* Symbol of Persuasion
* Sympathetic Vibration
* Transformation
* Transport via Plants
* Undeath to Death
* Veil
* Wall of Iron
* Wind Walk
* Word of Recall

Level 7 Spells:

* Animate Plants
* Arcane Sight, Greater
* Blasphemy
* Changestaff
* Control Undead
* Control Weather
* Creeping Doom
* Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
* Delayed Blast Fireball
* Destruction
* Dictum
* Ethereal Jaunt
* Finger of Death
* Fire Storm
* Forcecage
* Grasping Hand
* Hold Person, Mass
* Holy Word
* Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
* Insanity
* Instant Summons
* Invisibility, Mass
* Limited Wish
* Mage's Magnificent Mansion
* Mage's Sword
* Phase Door
* Power Word Blind
* Prismatic Spray
* Refuge
* Regenerate
* Restoration, Greater
* Resurrection
* Reverse Gravity
* Scrying, Greater
* Sequester
* Shadow Conjuration, Greater
* Simulacrum
* Spell Turning
* Statue
* Summon Monster VII
* Summon Nature's Ally VII
* Sunbeam
* Symbol of Stunning
* Symbol of Weakness
* Teleport Object
* Teleport, Greater
* Transmute Metal to Wood
* Vision
* Waves of Exhaustion
* Word of Chaos

Level 8 Spells:

* Animal Shapes
* Antipathy
* Binding
* Charm Monster, Mass
* Clenched Fist
* Cloak of Chaos
* Clone
* Control Plants
* Create Greater Undead
* Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
* Demand
* Dimensional Lock
* Discern Location
* Earthquake
* Holy Aura
* Horrid Wilting
* Incendiary Cloud
* Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
* Iron Body
* Irresistible Dance
* Maze
* Mind Blank
* Moment of Prescience
* Planar Ally, Greater
* Planar Binding, Greater
* Polar Ray
* Power Word Stun
* Prismatic Wall
* Protection from Spells
* Prying Eyes, Greater
* Repel Metal or Stone
* Scintillating Pattern
* Screen
* Shadow Evocation, Greater
* Shield of Law
* Spell Immunity, Greater
* Summon Monster VIII
* Summon Nature's Ally VIII
* Sunburst
* Symbol of Death
* Symbol of Insanity
* Sympathy
* Telekinetic Sphere
* Temporal Stasis
* Trap the Soul
* Unholy Aura
* Whirlwind

Level 9 Spells:

* Astral Projection
* Crushing Hand
* Dominate Monster
* Elemental Swarm
* Energy Drain
* Etherealness
* Foresight
* Freedom
* Gate
* Heal, Mass
* Hold Monster, Mass
* Implosion
* Imprisonment
* Mage's Disjunction
* Meteor Swarm
* Miracle
* Power Word Kill
* Prismatic Sphere
* Shades
* Shambler
* Shapechange
* Soul Bind
* Storm of Vengeance
* Summon Monster IX
* Summon Nature's Ally IX
* Teleportation Circle
* Time Stop
* True Resurrection
* Wail of the Banshee
* Weird
* Wish

Some spell changes:
Transmute Rock to Mud and Transmute Mud to Rock are combined as Transmute Rock and Mud. The caster chooses which effect she desires upon casting (Rock to Mud vs. Mud to Rock).

Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object are gone.

Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Shades are all altered as follows:
Instead of the impossible task of figuring out what "X%" of a given spell is, against foes who have successfully made their will save versus a shadow spell and thus realized that the spell is a shadow illusion, each round they interact with the spell they may roll a percentile chance as given by the spell to see if they are affected by the spell for that round. If they roll at or below the % chance for that round then they treat the spell as though it were 100% real rather than an illusion, if they roll above the % chance then the spell has no effect upon them for that round.

Several alignment (Chaos, Evil, Good, Law) specific spells are combined into a single spell each whose alignment affected is chosen at the time of casting.

Detect (Chaos, Evil, Good, Law) is now Detect [Alignment].
Protection from (Chaos, Evil, Good, Law) is now Protection from [Alignment].
Magic Circle against (Chaos, Evil, Good, Law) is now Magic Circle against [Alignment].

I'm open to moving around some spells that don't have appropriate spell levels and will gladly accept suggestions and likewise suggestions for what spells belong on what class lists when I create those threads.

The Classes:
[FCCC] Barbarian
[FCCC] Bard
[FCCC] Cleric
[FCCC] Druid
[FCCC] Fighter
[FCCC] Monk
[FCCC] Paladin
[FCCC] Ranger
[FCCC] Rogue
[FCCC] Sorcerer
[FCCC] Wizard
(I'll have these linked to their respective threads once created)

Additional Rules and Considerations:

Multiclassing
Characters may change classes, however whatever class you initially started out as will determine your spellcasting list, daily progression and the ability that your spellcasting is based upon. So I will still have a challenge in making the non-casting traits of core classes as roughly equivalent and interesting.

Divine vs Arcane
With the unified spell list all spells will be treated as arcane.

All casters may use a spellcasting focus or material components for spells that do not have costly material components.

When wearing armor or shield with which they are proficient, an adventurer does not incur any spell failure chance due to wearing that armor or shield.

[edit log]
10/1- removed more duplicate spells I had missed on my first passes
10/2- removed tons more duplicate spells that I noticed when doing the Bard class. Finally finished removing dupes? Doubt it.
Also inserted links for the Barbarian and Bard.
Removed Armored Spellcasting feat and replaced it with brief text noting that Spell Failure chances from armor and shields only apply if the character is not proficient in their use.
10/3- moved spellcasting progressions to the post below for easier linking.
*sigh* still finding duplicate spells
combined some spells, removed others from play
10/4- added link for Druid

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:48 pm

Spellcasting Progressions:

There are only two spellcasting progressions, one each for Prepared or Spontaneous casting. Spontaneous casters know less spells but can cast more spells per day. Spellcasters who use preparation know more spells but can cast fewer spells per day.

Here is the breakdown of spellcasting types along with their spellcasting attribute.

Spontaneous Casters are:
Barbarian (Con), Monk (Wis), Paladin (Cha), Ranger (Dex), Sorcerer (Cha)

Preparation Casters are:
Bard (Cha), Cleric (Wis), Druid (Wis), Fighter (Con), Rogue (Dex), Wizard (Int)

Spontaneous Caster

Spells per Day


Level	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	6	4	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	6	5	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	6	6	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	6	6	4	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	6	6	5	3	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	6	6	6	4	-	-	-	-	-	-
7	6	6	6	5	3	-	-	-	-	-
8	6	6	6	6	4	-	-	-	-	-
9	6	6	6	6	5	3	-	-	-	-
10	6	6	6	6	6	4	-	-	-	-
11	6	6	6	6	6	5	3	-	-	-
12	6	6	6	6	6	6	4	-	-	-
13	6	6	6	6	6	6	5	3	-	-
14	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	4	-	-
15	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	5	3	-
16	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	4	-
17	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	5	3
18	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	4
19	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	5
20	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6

Spells Known


Level	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	5	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	5	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	6	3	1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	6	4	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	7	4	2	1	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	7	5	3	2	-	-	-	-	-	-
7	8	5	3	2	1	-	-	-	-	-
8	8	5	4	3	2	-	-	-	-	-
9	9	5	4	3	2	1	-	-	-	-
10	9	5	5	4	3	2	-	-	-	-
11	9	5	5	4	3	2	1	-	-	-
12	9	5	5	5	4	3	2	-	-	-
13	9	5	5	5	4	3	2	1	-	-
14	9	5	5	5	5	4	3	2	-	-
15	9	5	5	5	5	4	3	2	1	-
16	9	5	5	5	5	5	4	3	2	-
17	9	5	5	5	5	5	4	3	2	1
18	9	5	5	5	5	5	5	4	3	2
19	9	5	5	5	5	5	5	4	3	2
20	9	5	5	5	5	5	5	5	4	3

Preparation Caster

Spells per Day


Level	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	3	1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	4	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	4	2	1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	5	3	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	5	3	2	1	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	5	3	3	2	-	-	-	-	-	-
7	6	4	3	2	1	-	-	-	-	-
8	6	4	3	3	2	-	-	-	-	-
9	6	4	4	3	2	1	-	-	-	-
10	6	4	4	3	3	2	-	-	-	-
11	6	4	4	4	3	2	1	-	-	-
12	6	4	4	4	3	3	2	-	-	-
13	6	4	4	4	4	3	2	1	-	-
14	6	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	-	-
15	6	4	4	4	4	4	3	2	1	-
16	6	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2	-
17	6	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	2	1
18	6	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3	2
19	6	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	3
20	6	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4

Spells Freely Learned


Level	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
1	*	+6	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	*	+2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	*	+1	+2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	*	+1	+1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	*	-	+1	+2	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	*	-	+1	+1	-	-	-	-	-	-
7	*	-	-	+1	+2	-	-	-	-	-
8	*	-	-	+1	+1	-	-	-	-	-
9	*	-	-	-	+1	+2	-	-	-	-
10	*	-	-	-	+1	+1	-	-	-	-
11	*	-	-	-	-	+1	+2	-	-	-
12	*	-	-	-	-	+1	+1	-	-	-
13	*	-	-	-	-	-	+1	+2	-	-
14	*	-	-	-	-	-	+1	+1	-	-
15	*	-	-	-	-	-	-	+1	+2	-
16	*	-	-	-	-	-	-	+1	+1	-
17	*	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	+1	+2
18	*	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	+1	+1
19	*	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	+1
20	*	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	+1

*Preparation Spellcasters automatically know all level zero class spells

I'm not sold on any particular progression and could thus be swayed to make changes.

For spontaneous casters I basically did Sorc progression at +1 level so that they aren't borked with delayed spell level access.

For preparation casters I did druid casting for cantrips and then wizard progression the rest of spells per day. More interestingly I made a distinction between spells learned and known, since I intend for preparation casters to be able to expand their spells known via DM fiat as wizards can.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:46 pm

So, when you say "spells", you mean that all of these classes are actually going to be full-out, spell casters right, and not using these as Ex or Su abilities?

It certainly makes balance easier, but it does seem funny to use AMF on a fighter or barbarian and affect more than his gear. I'm not saying it's wrong; it's just a paradigm shift.

violence in the media · Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:47 pm

Just a thought I had about ASF, especially since you're including a feat that most people auto-recieve to eliminate it, is why not change what it does in the first place?

I don't think I've ever witnessed someone tolerate ASF ever. They always jump through whatever hoops are necessary to eliminate it. That being the case, why not convert ASF to a save DC penalty? As a starting point, you can peg each 5% as a -1 and see how that works. Then, you make this penalty unavoidable and people are faced with the choice of wearing armor and relying mostly on no-save spells (which many of your newly-casting classes are liable to do in the first place) or not wearing armor and have their save-or-fuck-you-up spells actually work.

Now, this will probably necessitate some other changes as well, but it might make life a little easier. Here's another idea I just had, as an addition to the one above: your spellcasting progression is selected by the player, and is based on the BAB and and HD they desire to have. However, everyone draws all spells from the same massive list. Choosing spontaneous casting ups your per day rate (+2 spells per day per spell level?), but limits you to the finite known spell situation. Poor BAB and d6 HD or less gets Wizard casting. Medium BAB and d8 HD gets Druid casting, I guess. Good BAB and d10+ HD gets 2 spell slots per spell level per day casting.

So, your fighters and barbarians are going to wind up with less castable spells per day because they get good BAB and HD, but they're going to be throwing down most of those spells in full armor and won't even care. They might even pick spontaneous casting most often and limit themselves to a small handful of spells because these players primarily want to be stabbing things. From their perspective, they'll be getting a bunch of "free" supernatural abilities, as well as the ability to use spell completion items.

On the other end, your Wizard is mostly unchanged from what we know and love--except now they have explicit access to a few spells that had to finagle before, if they wanted them at all. Your biggest gainers are your Clerics and Druids, who now have access to all the awesome Wizard spells they didn't before in addition to their superior class chassis, so this is an area you want to do something about.

Now, if you do something like this, you're going to notice issues crop up where the only thing differentiating classes are their class-specific abilities, and some currently existing classes will be pretty pointless. Also, if ASF is a firm rule, you won't have plate-casting clerics hucking out many implosions, flame strikes, or offensive plane shifts. Heck, you might not even see anyone picking the Sorcerer or Wizard class as they opt to be unarmored Clerics or Druids instead. They'll have all the spellcasting power, plus some armor abilities, better HD and BAB, better weapon selection, and better saves. They'll aslo get either Domains and turn undead, or Wildshaping and all the rest of the Druid goodness.

I take back my comment about this possibly being easier, but at least in this case you wouldn't need to write up new spell lists for every class.

Anyway, hopefully my poorly-conceived ramblings inspire something better out of someone else.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:29 pm

Heh, I think you have my same affliction Violence when it comes to modifying rulesets. When I start changing things I often don't stop until it isn't the same game anymore. The first time I made a 3.Erik version I did away with classes and made 3 archtypes where you could select your casting type based upon what BAB, HD and skill points you wanted to have much as you've described it. Everyone got a boatload of feats every level and used them to select class abilities. I had limited success in playtesting it, however one player ruined the experience for me so I didn't continue it.

Anywho, back to the task at hand. I'm trying to keep this change as a set of class rewrites and leave the rest of the game intact more or less. No need to create scaling feats, alternate combat mechanics or anything like that. That will keep it pretty easy to incorporate into any 3.5 campaign.

I agree that ASF is a pretty crummy mechanic since everyone simply avoids it like the plague. I have played only one character who cast spells with an ASF penalty, and that was a bard/paladin in Living Greyhawk... and I still got quite irritated when my ASF bit me in the nuts and made me lose one of my few spells for the day.

I could probably figure out some alternative mechanic to replace it, but instead I figured I could just create a feat which basically lets people do what they've always longed to do- avoid getting any arcane spell failure possibility. My biggest concern is that all Wizards might take levels 2-20 in Fighter or some other class to wear armor since it won't impede their spellcasting. Hopefully the new class features will be synergistic enough to entice characters to not lightly go dipping around in every other class for their non-casting benefits. Wizards will be getting a few at-will spells and Int-based tricks.

I'm hoping that writing up spell lists for each class won't be too much of a bear. Basically I have a spreadsheet with all the spells and I just erase the ones that I don't want. God bless the d20srd. I was a bit worried about having spell lists that were so small at some levels that basically every character of that class will have the same selections. Best solution for that currently is to simply give less spells known. Giving less spells known will cut down on action paralysis for players as well I reckon. If I do go and add in Spell Compendium spells someday then there will be many more options to select as well.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:33 am

Switching out ASF for a "non-proficiency penalty" works pretty well.

-Username17

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:57 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Switching out ASF for a "non-proficiency penalty" works pretty well.

-Username17

But a non-proficiency penalty to what? Casting Save DC as Violence suggested? Or do you mean simply rather than creating a feat which effectively makes ASF a non-proficiency penalty, go straight to the source and make ASF something that only happens to characters who are non-proficient with the armor they wear?

I suppose I could do that. The only difference now is that Monks, Sorcs and Wizards don't get the Armored Spellcasting feat so they're penalized 1 extra feat if they want to wear armor. No sense in that though.

I'll edit in a note about ASF and edit out the feats later! =-)

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:51 am

erik wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Switching out ASF for a "non-proficiency penalty" works pretty well.

-Username17
But a non-proficiency penalty to what? Casting Save DC as Violence suggested? Or do you mean simply rather than creating a feat which effectively makes ASF a non-proficiency penalty, go straight to the source and make ASF something that only happens to characters who are non-proficient with the armor they wear?

I suppose I could do that. The only difference now is that Monks, Sorcs and Wizards don't get the Armored Spellcasting feat so they're penalized 1 extra feat if they want to wear armor. No sense in that though.

I'll edit in a note about ASF and edit out the feats later! =-)

Non-Proficiency Spell Failure Penalty. If you are using armor you aren't proficient with, you suffer the spell failure chance. Otherwise you get into bullshit like the Shugenja, who routinely wears Great Armor because they don't have any skills that suffer Armor Check Penalties and they cast Divine Spells so they don't care about ASF, and they don't make attack rolls so they don't care about that either.

-Username17

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:02 am

FrankTrollman wrote: Non-Proficiency Spell Failure Penalty. If you are using armor you aren't proficient with, you suffer the spell failure chance. Otherwise you get into bullshit like the Shugenja, who routinely wears Great Armor because they don't have any skills that suffer Armor Check Penalties and they cast Divine Spells so they don't care about ASF, and they don't make attack rolls so they don't care about that either.

-Username17

Alrighty. That's what I went with. Edited it in earlier tonight =-D

I also changed bards to preparation casters rather than spontaneous, because dammit, it seems so much more appropriate.

Working on Druids now. Spell list gets crazy power ups since out of most classes, druids had the most crappy levels per spells, that and I threw in the few elemental damage type spells they were missing. I'm knocking back their animal companion progression by 3 levels (so they will start with animal companions off the familiar list, without the familiar benefits) to sufficiently nerf them. Considering stripping them of wildshape on top of that but it feels so cruel. Leaning towards giving em Geomancer powers instead of wildshape.

My plans for the other classes are as follows:

Clerics will mostly stay the same. More like Archivists since they don't know every spell any more. I really want to put more fluff in there since I hate the 19 levels of no non-casting class features. Boooring. I'll give domains more oomph with tiered abilities. Probably will be one of the last classes I do since I am not looking forward to writing a couple dozen domain thingies.

Fighter will get to use bonus feats on any feats he meets the pre-reqs for. I want to throw in the Foil Action ability from Tome Fighter. Combat buffs some abjurations/mobility and not much else for spells.

Monks will wind up getting bumped into +1 BAB range. Mostly mobility spells, self-buffs and touch attacks. Will tweak and upgrade some of their crap abilities.

Paladins will get better smiting. Divine Might and other turn uses built in, since turning is balls for a Paladin anyway. Combat buffs, some abjuration and some status effect healing and cures.

Ranger will get same animal companion as the new druid (so an improvement, but not uber awesome). Make the archery/twf trees a bit more impressive (deepwood sniper built-in or give better twf). Basically same spell list as druid but without the elemental/blasting.

Rogues will be a pretty uninteresting adaptation, much like the barbarian. Give them spells and they're solid. Mostly stealth and mobility stuff that a rogue would care about.

Sorcerers will get abilities depending upon their ancestry (draconic, fey, celestial, infernal). This one is more work, like the cleric, so it will be put off til near the end as well.

Wizards will get a few at will spells. Slight metamagic reductions. Some item crafting schticks (small amount of free potions/scrolls).

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:24 am

A problem I noticed with trying to do things with Domains is that there are a fucking lot of domains. Rewrite one to a new paradigm and you pretty much have to rewrite them all. And that is a really bad return on your writing for actual in-play use. I mean fuck, when was the last time you saw someone who had the Law Domain or the Air domain on their fucking character sheet. Le alone obscure shit like the Gnome domain or the Sloth domain.

Basically, if you fuck with the domains themselves you'll be rewriting a lot of stuff, but at the end of the day out of all of those dozens of pieces of writing, only one class in 11 is going to be using them and they are only going to actually use 2-4 of them in their entire career.

-Username17

erik · Post by **erik** » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:13 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:A problem I noticed with trying to do things with Domains is that there are a fucking lot of domains. Rewrite one to a new paradigm and you pretty much have to rewrite them all. And that is a really bad return on your writing for actual in-play use. I mean fuck, when was the last time you saw someone who had the Law Domain or the Air domain on their fucking character sheet. Le alone obscure shit like the Gnome domain or the Sloth domain.

Basically, if you fuck with the domains themselves you'll be rewriting a lot of stuff, but at the end of the day out of all of those dozens of pieces of writing, only one class in 11 is going to be using them and they are only going to actually use 2-4 of them in their entire career.

-Username17

Oh god, I'm not even thinking of touching the non-core domains. I don't even know how many there are or where they are all hidden!

But even with just core domains there are something like 21 of em. That's why cleric is at the bottom of my to do list. In addition to being a nasty chore, I'm stalling on it hoping to figure alternative fluff to cut down on that workload.

If I go forward with making domains the cleric's defining feature, I'm thinking the alignment domains are getting dumped for sure. I could prune away a few more domains and get it down to about a dozen. The alignment domain spells can be just general cleric spells. Or perhaps gotten rid of entirely in some cases since blasphemy/holy word is a good way to break shit in half.

I'd considered doing the Divine Crusader schtick. Make em look kind of celestial/infernal, get some weak elemental resistances and become outsiders. Something to fill in some empty levels and is better than a stick in the eye, but nothing that a few of their level 2 spell slots weren't gonna do anyway. Unfortunately this just seems so generic and too similar to the sorcerer with their heritages. So it is not my favorite solution.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:11 am

Are the rest of these FCCC classes in progress or has this been abandoned?

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:41 pm

Looking at this, it does occur to me that (mechanics aside) this implies a solution to why heroic types have amazing powers... because if you are a PC or powerful/plot-important character, you are a spellcaster of some sort, even if you are a barbarian and using enemy skull-powered debuffs. You can be a 'fighter' and do all the situps you want, but unless you are taking levels in '(spellcasting)warrior', you are just an NPC.

While that may go against the grain of traditional D&D illogic, I think it's for the better. It opens up opportunities for fluff and roleplaying, rather than the reverse.