How NOT to give Constructive Criticism

[Zinegata]

I've been seeing this bullshit all over the Ghostwheel threads, and it has to stop.

Basically, what happens a lot in the Den is this:

<Op> I want to make a system where everyone plays Mary Sues. Please review the system I made here.

<Denners> Mary Sues suck. You are 100% wrong. I won't bother to read your system anymore. You suck.

<Op> I'm gonna ignore people who didn't actually read the system and who are just whining about Mary Sues. Because I don't care what you think about Mary Sues. I want to know if you think this system fits my ideal of playing a Mary Sue.

<Denners> You suck! You're rejecting our criticism! You don't belong here!

And really, that's fucking bullshit on these retarded Denner's part.

It is always valid to reject criticism if that's not what you want to talk about. Because it's not constructive. If you don't like a Mary Sue game, shut up about it instead of engaging in a discussion which should have been about how to make such a game work.

So to the asshole Denners:If you want to complain about Mary Sues, or how people should "properly" optimize, make your own fucking thread instead of crapping somebody else's.

And if you want to complain about how I call our your asshatery, bring it here instead of shitting over somebody who actually writes actual gaming stuff instead of self-important bullshit.

[ubernoob]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[Zinegata]

Yup. What you were doing is indeed a strawman attack.

And you're a shithead for doing it.

[Ghostwheel]

"If Ghostwheel ISN'T GOING TO ACCEPT ANY CRITICISM THAT DOESN'T ADHERE TO THE VIEWPOINT WHICH SPAWNED HIS OWN DAMN SYSTEM, then he shouldn't post here, since the only opinions he's interested in are the ones he agrees with."

It doesn't sound as though I'm explaining myself well; let me try again.

Now, this is just an analogy, so take it as that. I'm not calling anyone religious or not, and I don't want this post to cartwheel the thread completely off-topic. So let me explain:
Let's pretend I was an agnostic; without proof, I'm not going to believe in a religion. In fact, I'm a logical, scientific kind of guy. Without proper scientific studies done under rigorous conditions where variables are controlled, I'm not just going to believe things people tell me off the cuff unless I can see that the they can back their statements up with scientific evidence that's both valid and reliable.

Now, I'm really interested in understanding religion, and want to get the viewpoint of religious people as to why they believe in religion, and I'm open enough to being converted or believing the same thing if they give me proper evidence that follows the paradigm through which I see the world (scientific evidence and such). So I go to religious people, and begin talking with them, and asking them why they believe in a god or religion or whatever, and they start giving me reasons. They might be very valid reasons from their point of view too, such as that creation couldn't have come from nothing, arguments about Paley's watch, that the Bible couldn't have been written by a human being, and far more. In their world view, their reasons are meaningful and correct.

But they don't speak to me because the way I justify things to myself consists of scientific studies and the like.

The point here isn't if religion is correct or not. That's beyond the point. But unless you speak to the scientific guy in a way that relates to the way he sees the world, you're not going to convince him of anything much. And currently, people might be giving me reasons that my ideas are stupid, but if we take the previous analogy, they're making them from their perspective rather than trying to make scientific arguments that show studies that prove miracles and such can happen, or if you use a strong enough microscope you can see actual angels dancing on the head of a pin or whatever. They aren't communicating with me or making arguments in ways that coincide with my base assumptions. That doesn't mean that their reasons are bad, or what they believe is untrue, or anything else. But it's not going to convince me. I'm open to being convinced, really. But if you don't talk to me in the paradigm that I see the world, it's not going to be very constructive or helpful.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Zine, you are making a good point.

However, that's what the entire internet is like. I have attempted to get your point across in various places before. I was not successful in said attempts. Seeing the results of other attempts doesn't fill me with optimism that anyone could do that.

[Kaelik]

1) No Ghost Wheel, those reasons aren't valid from their own perspective. The problem with religious reasons to believe is that they are invalid from any perspective.

2) Wholly shit, you are insane. Why would you bring up religion at all? That is a terrible analogy, not the least because you set yourself up as the only sane rational person and the entire gaming den as crazies, but also just in general because talking about religion is the surest way to not get your point across.

3) Here's my analogy. There is something that is terrible and stupid, called "DrimGark." And that thing is fucking retarded, and people hate that thing. And further, one part of the definition of DrimGark is that people have not never die, but always die.

And so when someone wants to make a DrimGark setting, other people insult them for a lot of reasons, one of which is because DrimGark is objectively hated by all sane people, and another is because it's contradictory.

Then the DrimGark asshole whines about he's the objective one that needs rational evidence, and all those meanies are religious crazies.

Here's some news for you: You are the religious crazy who wants a specific thing that makes no sense and is stupid, and contradicts itself and has no justification.

So go want your piece of shit elsewhere, because while people can try to teach you how to polish a turd, even the most well polished turd is still a turd.

And if you want to eat shit, you can, but we don't want to watch you do it.

Long story short, I haven't been reading your other threads, but it sure is balls to the wall stupid to come in here when you were objectively wrong in your first thread and bitch about how you are the sane rational one and we are all blinded by our crazy.

Any chance of me ever respecting you as a poster was just buried by that post.

[Zinegata]

However, that's what the entire internet is like. I have attempted to get your point across in various places before. I was not successful in said attempts. Seeing the results of other attempts doesn't fill me with optimism that anyone could do that.

Not really.

The problem isn't the Internet. The problem is people who aren't interested in actual discussion and just want a chance to keep repeating their ideology/religion/asshatery.

Just see that epic flamewar between Bill O'Reilly and The View last week on National TV.

So, to me, it isn't a "problem that can never be solved". It can be solved by telling people to stop crapping on the thread and to move the discussion elsewhere.

Which is actually what's happening here.

[Zinegata]

Any chance of me ever respecting you as a poster was just buried by that post.

Oh look. More belittling and intimidation tactics. You really like feeble threats.

Bullshit like this is why Ghostwheel put you on ignore in the first place. And frankly, I'm betting that's the real reason you're posting here. You're still mad that he ignored you for posting inane "Grim dark sucks!" posts.

[Kaelik]

Oh look. More belittling and intimidation tactics. You really like feeble threats.

Zine, if you claim literally everything in the world is a belittling intimidation tactic, it loses any force it might have. It's not a threat. It's a statement. I will not, at this point, respect this poster, because he choose to spin a situation where he was objectively wrong as him being the only sane person in a world full of crazies. That's all. I don't expect it to change his actions at all, because he already made clear that when he is objectively wrong that he is the only sane person in a world full of crazies, so when he is merely subjectively wrong in choosing a poor analogy, I don't expect him to learn anything.

And frankly, I'm betting that's the real reason you're posting here. You're still mad that he ignored you for posting inane "Grim dark sucks!" posts.

Zine, are you aware that it doesn't actually tell you who has you on ignore. I don't know if he has me on ignore, so the fact that you and your new best friend talk about it while he sticks his dick in your butt doesn't mean I know it, and am therefore secretly RAGING about being on ignore.

Because trust me, the fact that a grimdark pissant has me on ignore is like 40th on the list of how much I care about times I've been put on ignore, which is to say nothing of the innumerable things I have to be pissed about that are more important than being ignored on an internet message board, like fucking banshees.

[Zinegata]

Zine, if you claim literally everything in the world is a belittling intimidation tactic, it loses any force it might have.

I don't "claim literally everything in the world is a belittling intimidation tactic". Do you see me saying Ghostwheel intimidates anyone?

I am claiming what you are doing is attempting to belittle and intimidate Ghostwheel.

So stop deflecting.

Only the weak-willed will give any shit about your "Respect List". And any person with a spine would realize that you're not making an argument to try and convince other people. You're just belittling other people to make yourself feel bigger. Otherwise, why would you even bring up your "Respect List"? Is getting your respect that important?

So really Kaelik, this isn't about "the truth". This is about you. Stop hiding behind "educating people" when all you actually do is belittle them.

Zine, are you aware that it doesn't actually tell you who has you on ignore.

BS. Because Ghostwheel did in fact publically declare that he found the ignore button right after you had posted yet another inane shit post. What, you think he made that statement just for show, like a lot of other Denners do?

So again, stop deflecting, and stop lying. This is just about your inability to accept that some new guy saw you exactly for what you became in that thread: Completely irrelevant noise.

[ubernoob]

Zine, you don't actually understand how people WITHOUT self esteem issues work. Those people (Kaelik, myself, basically everyone besides you) actually could care less what people on the internet care about them. As such, telling someone on the internet that you have lost respect for them is not something to make yourself feel better or make the other person feel bad (because important people don't care what other people on the internet think about them), but a declaration that what you have written has made them decide to stop caring what you write (something that actually has relevance).

In short: Feelings don't matter. The ability to give a shit what you say does matter. Me calling Ghost a control freak and idiot is NOT some shit to make me feel better about myself (seriously, that's what blowjobs are for). It's a statement that he is doing it wrong and needs to rethink his ideas.

This is the Gaming Den. We will burn down your house, rape your wife, shoot your dog, and say mean things about you on the internet.

[Zinegata]

Zine, you don't actually understand how people WITHOUT self esteem issues work. Those people (Kaelik, myself, basically everyone besides you) actually could care less what people on the internet care about them.

Oh, great. That means I can call you names without feeling guilty!

As such, telling someone on the internet that you have lost respect for them is not something to make yourself feel better or make the other person feel bad (because important people don't care what other people on the internet think about them), but a declaration that what you have written has made them decide to stop caring what you write (something that actually has relevance).

That's your justification for shitty behavior?

"I don't have self-esteem issues. So when I attack other people's self-esteem they shouldn't care either!"

No asshole, that's not justifiable behavior. That's you being a self-important retard hiding behind a "crusade against stupidity" to justify the fact that you're really nothing more than an ass.

------

I also call bullshit on the whole "feelings don't matter" thing. Because if feelings didn't matter to you, why do you keep posting? Why don't you just tell yourself "He's never gonna learn, so I should stop trying."?

The fact is, you're not showing that you have loads of self-esteem or maturity. You're just showing the opposite. You're an immature jackass.

This is the Gaming Den. We will burn down your house, rape your wife, shoot your dog, and say mean things about you on the internet.

Not really. After all the bullshit of the past couple of months, it's pretty clear that the Den decided quite the opposite:

We are not the deep end of the Internet. Because we've been there. And it sucked.

[ubernoob]

Zine, you failed to even attempt to address this.

Me calling Ghost a control freak and idiot is NOT some shit to make me feel better about myself (seriously, that's what blowjobs are for). It's a statement that he is doing it wrong and needs to rethink his ideas.

Please, get a girlfriend and stop with your self righteous spam.

[Zinegata]

Zine, you failed to even attempt to address this.

Me calling Ghost a control freak and idiot is NOT some shit to make me feel better about myself (seriously, that's what blowjobs are for). It's a statement that he is doing it wrong and needs to rethink his ideas.

Please, get a girlfriend and stop with your self righteous spam.

*yawn* Really, resorting to the girlfriend argument? You really suck at intimidation ubernoob. People who have real self-esteem don't think that "having a girlfriend" = "well adjusted".

So really, all you're showing is how much in need of self-esteem you are.

And no, I don't need to address that point at all. Because I also told Ghostwheel that some of his ideas were wrong without having to resort to calling him a control freak or an idiot.

So really, you're just resorting to full-scale lying now. Because you've been exposed as a fraud, and you're no crusader against stupidity. You're just a lying, immature, retarded, jackass.

[Kaelik]

*yawn* Really, resorting to the girlfriend argument? You really suck at intimidation ubernoob. People who have real self-esteem don't think that "having a girlfriend" = "well adjusted".

Alternatively, it's a common statement when someone is an uptight dick about everything all the time, and doesn't have a life to say "get laid" and he wasn't saying that having a girlfriend makes people well adjusted, just that getting a life would cause you to stop wasting our time.

Because you've been exposed as a fraud, and you're no crusader against stupidity. You're just a lying, immature, retarded, jackass.

You have a serious problem with strawmen. No one but you has ever said that anyone here is a crusader against stupidity. You are literally the only person who has ever said that. Proving someone is not something they have never claimed to be is not proof that they are lying, it's proof that you still can't tell the difference between what people actually say, and what your brains shits out.

[TOZ]

<tangent> What the fuck does getting a blowjob do for self-esteem? 'I got a supermodel to take it in the mouth so I must be awesome'? Or 'I totally hooked up with the sluttiest bitch at the party, I must be awesome'?

[Zinegata]

Alternatively, it's a common statement when someone is an uptight dick about everything all the time, and doesn't have a life to say "get laid" and he wasn't saying that having a girlfriend makes people well adjusted, just that getting a life would cause you to stop wasting our time.

Really Kaelik, your language skills are limited to "intimidate" and "lie".

You claim I'm wasting your time. Despite the fact that you could, in fact, choose at any time to stop replying.

Because really, talking to someone you don't like? That's not something you have to do. That's a choice.

Belittling someone using strawman attacks? That's also a choice. You belittled Ghostwheel for no good reason. I called you out on it.

And you know what? I'll show you how to do it properly then. I'll stop wasting my time by stopping my replies to you in this thread.

Because really, when you take a quick look at It's My Own Invention, it's readily apparent that this thread has achieved its purpose.

Bye!

[Kaelik]

Belittling someone using strawman attacks? That's also a choice. You belittled Ghostwheel for no good reason. I called you out on it.

No, I pointed out that his shitty idea was shitty, for the purpose of him getting a better idea. Then he got a better idea, because people told him his idea was shitty. Huge Success!

Because really, when you take a quick look at It's My Own Invention, it's readily apparent that this thread has achieved its purpose.

No, because when I take a look an IMOI, I still see a bunch of waste of time shit threads that I'm not going to bother clicking on, because their creator is a grimdark fanboi, and if you don't like grimdark (a self contradictory thing) you are a clearly just a crazy incapable of understanding that he is the only logical person in the world.

[ubernoob]

<tangent> What the fuck does getting a blowjob do for self-esteem? 'I got a supermodel to take it in the mouth so I must be awesome'? Or 'I totally hooked up with the sluttiest bitch at the party, I must be awesome'?

Well, for one thing it is rather hard to call people crusaders against I'm not going to bother checking Zine's post when you're getting head. And really, it's the spam that bothers me the most. Zine could say the most retarded shit in the world and it wouldn't bother me a bit if he didn't spam the shit out of threads since I've got him on ignore and we could all just get on with our day with minimal disruption to useful discussion.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

<tangent> What the fuck does getting a blowjob do for self-esteem? 'I got a supermodel to take it in the mouth so I must be awesome'? Or 'I totally hooked up with the sluttiest bitch at the party, I must be awesome'?

I don't know, I always am in a better mood after having my wang mouthified.

[mean_liar]

Seconded.

[Maj]

<tangent> What the fuck does getting a blowjob do for self-esteem? 'I got a supermodel to take it in the mouth so I must be awesome'? Or 'I totally hooked up with the sluttiest bitch at the party, I must be awesome'?

Seeing as how I'm not male, I asked my husband. This is what he came up with:

There isn't really a part of a woman's mouth that gives her physical pleasure. Because it's not a mutual thing, there's a sense of the guy being cool enough, important enough, hot enough, powerful [or rich] enough, or loved enough to have a woman being doing that [and not getting that much out of it].

[Quantumboost]

You have a serious problem with strawmen. No one but you has ever said that anyone here is a crusader against stupidity. You are literally the only person who has ever said that.

That's verifiably false, as Roy has claimed that he is a crusader against stupidity multiple times in the past. Pretty sure you haven't, but Zine isn't the *only* person who has ever said that here.

[Zinegata]

Seeing as how I'm not male, I asked my husband. This is what he came up with:

There isn't really a part of a woman's mouth that gives her physical pleasure. Because it's not a mutual thing, there's a sense of the guy being cool enough, important enough, hot enough, powerful [or rich] enough, or loved enough to have a woman being doing that [and not getting that much out of it].

Yeah. I more or less I agree with Ess.

Which is why I've managed to say "no" to it. I don't really see the need, and I feel it's pretty degrading on the woman's part.

[Kaelik]

You have a serious problem with strawmen. No one but you has ever said that anyone here is a crusader against stupidity. You are literally the only person who has ever said that.

That's verifiably false, as Roy has claimed that he is a crusader against stupidity multiple times in the past. Pretty sure you haven't, but Zine isn't the *only* person who has ever said that here.

Well, since Roy and Zine are about 70% the same person, I'm just going to give my self a pass on that.