Minor creation

[josephbt]

Somebody suggested using this spell for some major rogue cheese. I have no clue in which thread or in what way, so would the OP please respond. Thanks.

[Artless]

Straight up, 11 levels of rogue. Use your level 11 ability for a bonus feat which becomes perfect two-weapon fighting as detailed here.
Now, simply chuck 4 acid flasks each round. (5 with rapid shot) As a deep halfling your attack bonus can easily be +14 (+7 bab +1 racial +1 size +5 dex). Giants have really low touch AC and no acid resistance, so you should cut through them like butter.
Add some wands of minor creation to make your own ammo on the spot and you shouldn't even have to carry a medium load.

The best part is that you haven't even spent feats or bought equipment yet, so you can set yourself up for a great noncombat role as well. (Not that there are any noncombat encounters in the adventure that I know of, but it's nice to be the best at everything.)

That what you were looking for?


Quick edit to save MrWaeseL from the shame.

[MrWaeseL]

It lets you make bathtubs full of healing salve, or a barrel full of acid, or lets you do a lot of damage, but that's not specific for rogues.

Oh, and that typo is really sticking out now

[Cielingcat]

What was the typo? I missed it.

[NineInchNall]

Cut trough them, I believe.

[MrWaeseL]

I hate you guys.

[josephbt]

Hokay, we can make fun of MrWaeseL all day long, but it still won't answer my question. How the hell do you create Alchemists Acid or Fire with Minor Creation when it creates

You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter.

How exactly is acid vegetable matter?

edit: had a baaad typo

[Endovior]

Because it's a horrible Amazonian Acid-Spitting Death Blossom, 10 feet wide and armed with a variety of nasty pods that shoot terrible spurts of flesh-dissolving acid, slaying all who draw near to provide itself with the grim fertilizer of partially dissolved and decaying bodies.

Actually not, but I suspect that this works via the supplement rule; if you can find a Plant-type creature anywhere, in any supplement, that uses an Acid-type attack, then you can use Minor Creation to make yourself Acid.

[josephbt]

And it still wouldn't be vegetable matter. In the same way that the hydrochloric acid in your stomach isn't animal matter.

I know that there is supposed to be some suspension of disbelief, but this is plain retarded.

[Cielingcat]

What is "vegetable matter" though, exactly?

[MrWaeseL]

Minor Creation also lets you make more complex stuff with a craft check.

[josephbt]

@Waesel

Yes, it does. But you're still limited to the boundaries stated above - unliving vegetable matter.

So chairs and tables are a go if you have Craft(carpentry).

@cielingcat
Plants?

[Cielingcat]

So it has to be actual plants? You couldn't, say, make tree bark, since that's only part of the plant?

What I'm getting at is that there are plants that produce actual acids (and in D&D, possibly even incendiaries), and so it would be possible to Minor Create them.

[josephbt]

I guess you missunderstod me.

This is one of the definitions of "vegetable" by Princeton dictionary

of the nature of or characteristic of or derived from plants; "decaying vegetable matter"

Bark is available through Minor Creation, if it is composed of dead plant matter. Live bark is a no-no.

And the fact, that there could be plants that make acid, does not remove the fact that acid is not plant matter.

At this point, i have no other argument against producing Acid flasks via Minor creation except this one. If anyone can supply, why you could, i'd be happy.

[Cielingcat]

But if the acid is a type produced by a plant, then it is "derived from plants" by definition.

[dbb]

Remember, "acid" isn't some sort of magic formula for a substance that has to be created in a lab. It's just a substance that -- depending on your definition -- drops pH below 7 when dissolved in water; or is a proton donor; etc., etc. "Organic acid" is a real class of compounds that exists in the real world. Heck, aspirin is derived from an acid extracted from willow bark. On what basis are you making the contrary assertion that plant matter cannot be acidic?

Now, while I personally am not aware of any trees whose bark when dissolved in water produces a substance acidic enough to do damage on the D&D scale,

a> that doesn't mean there aren't any, I'm not an organic chemist;
b> that there aren't any in the real world (if there aren't) is no indication of whether there are in the D&D world.

Telling your DM that may well provoke a response of "it doesn't mean there are any, either, and I say there aren't". I suggest finding a plant in a Monster Manual that produces some compound that does actual damage to people, and using minor creation to synthesize that. If that doesn't fly either you're going to have to find some other method of conjuring up acid or alchemist's fire by the boatload, but that shouldn't be too hard.

--d.

[Username17]

The Greenvise, Monster Manual 2 p. 120, is a plant creature that emits a 3d8 acid cloud. That's vegetable matter and it contains deadly acid. Much deadlier acid than the vials of acid are.

So if someone wants to produce acid from vegetable matter they can certainly do so in a D&D context. Stomach HCl is animal, Saltpeter derived HNO3 is mineral, and whatever the fvck it is you squeeze out of a Greenvise or a Tendriculous is vegetable.

Because it's based on the three types of matter and those are the only choices. If something isn't a "mineral" or an "animal" it must be a "vegetable" (or nonexistant) by those criteria.

-Username17

[josephbt]

I fvcking hate DnD logic. Damn do i hate it. Every single fvckin one of those designers should go to following 101 classes:

• 
  
• life science - Animal, plant and mineral kingdoms?? What kind of categories are these? C'mon.
  
• philosophy - According to the division layed out in Polymorph any object, that's all there is. Where do outsiders belong? In a flux state of matter? What are the undead? Aaaaaarg, it's the zombie zucchini. Constructs and elementals? What of the warforged? Or should i call them "the animal mineral plant people".
  
• creative writing - "If only we had, like, you know, like, stuff, to make sounds on paper, and, like, whatever, man." That's how some of DnD spell effects look like on paper. Was one editor with a bit of common sense too much to ask?
  

I'm convinced that Minor creation lets you create acid. You just have to apply DnD logic.

[Crissa]

Umm, if you can't create living vegetable matter, you aren't going to make much that's edible.

No minor creation salads?

-Crissa

...And no one has heard of a pitcher plant? Stinging nettles? Heck, some trees are actually really, really explosively flammable.

[Catharz]

1174531247[/unixtime]]Umm, if you can't create living vegetable matter, you aren't going to make much that's edible.

No minor creation salads?

Oh god, the lettuce is dead

[Cielingcat]

Isn't lettuce normally dead?

Tar is derived from vegetable matter, and is rather sticky. I'm not sure if it's flammable though. Potential alchemist's fire, maybe?

[Digestor]

^ "bio-diesel" ? Not tar, but... you know, flammable.

Also, if you let dead 'vegetable matter' sit long enough it starts to sort of ferment and become kind of caustic...

...damn garbage pile up for 4+ years was eating away at the concrete underneath the trash-compactor at my job, literally took away about a centimeter of the concrete, exposing the rough rocks underneath the smooth surface.

[User3]

There's still a problem with this acid flask creation technique.

Okay ... you use Minor Creation to create acid in say, a pre-existing glass container or a natural rock depression (that won't leak).

Now ... what are the rules for the UMD-using Halfling Rogue to use to actually get or make glass flasks - and then scoop the freakin' acid into them?

That's potentially fraught with mishaps and perhaps even accidental damage to the Halfling!

[Digestor]

So he has a special treated "shovel like fork" that he uses to scoop? An acid flinging machine of devastating doom and/or misanthropy would surely come prepared to an acid fight with acid resistant gear and, more importantly, acid handling gear?

At least I'd assume so...

[Cielingcat]

You could Fabricate some bottles.