Video Games

[Jilocasin]

Also, what system are the N1 games for? Disgaea and Makai Kingdom are perking my interest. I mean, stealing the pilot out of a vehicle? Yeah.

Disgaea 1 & 2, Makai Kingdom and Phantom Brave are on the PS2. Their newer games are coming out on the PS3.

[Leress]

Also, what system are the N1 games for? Disgaea and Makai Kingdom are perking my interest. I mean, stealing the pilot out of a vehicle? Yeah.

Disgaea 1 & 2, Makai Kingdom and Phantom Brave are on the PS2. Their newer games are coming out on the PS3.

Also on the PS2 are La Pucelle and Soul Nomad.

[Koumei]

PS2:
Disgaea (the first. Also, the one with the "Horse Weiner")
Makai Kingdom (the one with vehicles you can steal pilots out of... then you can steal the vehicles)
Disgaea 2
La Pucelle Tactics
Phantom Brave (not as good or funny as the others)

PS3:
Trinity Universe or something? Sounds okay
Disgaea 3, probably awesome but I <3 me some Rozalin, so 2 > 3

DS:
Disgaea

PSP:
Disgaea (best version)
Disgaea 2 (best version)
I Want to be the Hero (Dood)
Criminal Girls (the one that won't get released out here, where you are a female prison warden who has to spank the female prisoners)
...and a game where the main character gets hit by a truck right at the start, so you have to take over

I bolded the best ones.

[PhoneLobster]

In other news I was at a mall, I went into a game shop, I saw the new Fallout 3.5

I said "Hey is that out or still preorder?'

Store guy says "Oh it came out yesterday."

I said "I'll take it"

He says "Hey it's not like you are missing anything buying it on the second day of release, Steam still had it locked for the entire first official release day here in Australia so..."

I said "Wait, Steam? Sorry, I don't buy Steam titles."

He said "I Don't Blame You"

I want to stress this, he didn't even BLINK when a casual mention of Steam lost him the sale. He was not surprised, he was not offended, he was used to it and he sympathised.

Also I can imagine the shit he is getting from customers over the whole Steam thing in general. I mean the locked release day for The Fallout That Stays In Vegas that he was bitching about in and of itself must have caused him any amount of angst with utterly (and justifiably) fucking pissed customers.

And all this time he watches as the PC section in his store only shrinks... and he must think "thank you steam... thanks a lot..."

[Koumei]

Wait, so now if Steam put their name on it (see: everything that ever gets released for PC for the rest of eternity) then even if you buy it from a physical store, with a CD, in an actual box, you still have to be connected to Steam to play it?

Wow, they seriously can go fuck themselves.

[PhoneLobster]

Er. Yeah, thats the way its been with Steam since like day 1 Koumei.

Worse still increasingly Steam titles require you to download about as much "day zero patch" as the game actually installs off of DVD.

Oh, and for some reason titles released through Steam seem to have bigger issues with major release bugs. And "unfinished at release, well finish all the features/content one day, honest" issues. (Empire total war's online multiplayer campaign mode arguable THE major on the box selling point for the game didn't exist at release, or for months afterward, NOW, a whole title in the series later, ITS IN "BETA")

Oh, and titles released with Steam often have more issues with "lets release a title with less content than the prior title in the series, then see if we can sell more content later!", then that sorta FAILS and so you basically just get a game with less content...

Oh and the whole "your game is locked for more than 24 hours on release day you fucking Australian SUCKER, we won't spend all your money in one place while you sit there with NOTHING AHAHAHAHAH!!" is standard fare for Steam games too.

Edit: Seriously Steam titles? Annoying, buggy, short on features, an auto patcher so bad you may as well exist without patches, and a requirement to download gigs of crap?

If I have to download piles of crap and have a poorly supported semi complete product I MAY AS WELL PIRATE IT AND THUS GET A SUPERIOR NON-STEAM CRIPPLED VERSION, and as a bonus it is also free.

Remember kids I am in nooooo way encouraging you to steal Steam games en mass.

I'm just pointing out YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE AN IDIOT NOT TO.

And also if you actually pay Steam you are feeding a parasite crippling the PC gaming industry and destroying all the mom and pop bricks and mortar game stores in the process. You bastards!

[cthulhu]

And all this time he watches as the PC section in his store only shrinks... and he must think "thank you steam... thanks a lot..."

Yes, because more than half of total game sales is now, online (47% by dollar value). Steam, Direct2Drive and World of Warcraft ate half his sales. (Thats sales of full copies of WoW, not the subscription revenue)

Given that half of all purchasers (more if you look by number of full games brought, not by dollar value of purchases) have fucked off online and are never going to set foot in his store, he is going to reduce his exposure to PC games. Consoles do way better for him.

I spend a fair bit of money on games, (30+ purchases a year of full titles, including discounted titles), and I haven't set foot in a game store for several years now.

Wait, so now if Steam put their name on it (see: everything that ever gets released for PC for the rest of eternity) then even if you buy it from a physical store, with a CD, in an actual box, you still have to be connected to Steam to play it?

While everything is sold on steam, a small number of games make steam mandatory for their operation. you don't have to be connected though (use offline mode is right there). Part of the reason is highly effective copy protection.

If you don't like steam Direct2Drive.com is pretty good and sometimes pricing is highly advantageous for Australians compared to steam.

[PhoneLobster]

Given that half of all purchasers (more if you look by number of full games brought, not by dollar value of purchases) have fucked off online

Except here we are, in a large region on a large continent full of such regions where online purchasing is NOT an option and yet our PC shelf stock is STILL shrinking.

Thanks in large part to the worst aspects of Steam policies and technology.

Steam titles off the shelf are not playable off the shelf. That is a MASSIVE turn off to consumers. Hell if even drives them away from using the Steam service to buy non-off the shelf products, quiet rightly.

And for all the diversity steam may provide with it's Internet catalog all those supposed indie games it is "saving" never seem to get distributed in large markets where the Internet option is significantly sub par. Hell they don't seem to ever hit the real shelves AT ALL.

Steam is shrinking the market, and in the mean time letting the consoles take the real world shelf space is an INCREDIBLY poor long term strategic move. You'll notice that while they like their online crap THEY don't fail to look after their "real world" market. Hm... I wonder why they do that...

[cthulhu]

Given that half of all purchasers (more if you look by number of full games brought, not by dollar value of purchases) have fucked off online

Except here we are, in a large region on a large continent full of such regions where online purchasing is NOT an option and yet our PC shelf stock is STILL shrinking.

The digital distribution market consists of exactly 4 websites: worldofwarcraft.com and it's related sites, Steamgames.com, Direct2drive.com and some indie site about fish I don't care about.

Worldofwarcraft and blizzard.com EACH shifts more copies of world of worldcraft alone than the next biggest player shifts of everything combined. So let's be explict, when we're talking about digital distribution, we're talking about WoW, Steam and D2D.

All of these sell to metro Australia, so we can safely assume they are major market players in Australia.

Thanks in large part to the worst aspects of Steam policies and technology.

Steam titles off the shelf are not playable off the shelf. That is a MASSIVE turn off to consumers. Hell if even drives them away from using the Steam service to buy non-off the shelf products, quiet rightly.

This is so much noise. Steam is a major market player yes, but D2D uses a completey different set up. If you have poor connectivity, you can buy from them instead.

Steam is shrinking the market, and in the mean time letting the consoles take the real world shelf space is an INCREDIBLY poor long term strategic move. You'll notice that while they like their online crap THEY don't fail to look after their "real world" market. Hm... I wonder why they do that...

Because you need physical product to play a AAA title on your Xbox Arcade? You know, the actual reason?

Steam isn't shrinking the market - box copy revenues are done, but as we can see from those sales figures before MMORPGs are a big component of the PC market now, and I suspect subscription revenue is a big deal.

PC Gaming market for boxed copies is 4 billion dollars or theres about. WoW subscription revenue is about 1.4 billion.

The other thing to remember is that developers get a much better margin on digital copies than physical product. Exact figures are unavailable, but gross margin is probably 10% on a boxed copy and more like 40% (steam marketing claims 60%) on digital distribution.

[Koumei]

It isn't particularly relevant to me, as my PC can't muster the power to be a gaming machine. But still, that is pretty shitty. No way am I consenting to having spyware on my PC to run the games, I'd just pirate it instead.

[PhoneLobster]

OK Koumei, since you seem to not know and Cthulhu is spouting fan boy lies you need some clarifications.

(use offline mode is right there)

"Off Line Mode" requires you to be online in order to turn on.

It also requires the Steam client to be running.

The Steam Client then in turn requires that it go online periodically or it will stop functioning and also cause your off line mode to stop functioning.

And when it DOES go on line it will update itself. The update is involuntary and mandatory. And can take a long while. And tends to be buggy.

And when it update's itself it messes with a number of your settings in the client. Primarily it changes all your games from offline mode... to online mode.

Then it changes all your games from "don't fucking patch me" to "start fucking patching me now".

Then it fucking shits itself and freezes up real bad from trying to patch several games all at fucking once using what must be some of the worst and most unstable autopatching software I have ever seen in practice.

Half an hour later with a great deal of effort you may have wrangled it into turning off all the patching and switched things back to offline mode and such.

So THAT is how "offline mode" happens to "worK" being you know "right there" and all when you have like just one or two steam titles you got stiffed with and you actually decide Steam's autopatch service is not worth the effort and you just think one day "Oh yeah, I think I''l just boot up Empire Total War since it's squatting there on my hard drive anyway and... OH MY FUCKING GOD NOOOOOO!".

Part of the reason is highly effective copy protection.

Every Steam title is now routinely cracked and distributed by pirates ON RELEASE. So, yeah, that's just a total fucking lie right there.

Direct2Drive.com

Well, they won't try and sit on your game's face and suffocate it for all time with their bloated ass.

But I'm pretty sure they are the guys who fucked me over with a version of Sword of the stars that required special D2D patches only, and was always a patch behind current, which meant that it couldn't be used for the one thing I bought it for, playing online multiplayer...

So you know, between that and how much Star Dock has fucked up recently online game purchasing is basically for credulous idiots who want the gaming industry to rob them fucking blind then butt fuck them for all eternity every time they actually try and play "their" purchases.

edit:
Also FUCK YOU Cthulhu for being such a moron as to defend Steam and it's practices, and it's Steam exclusive titles, with world of warcraft and Direct 2 Drive.

Have a Godwin, "The Nazis were fine because actually the British were kinda okay."

[cthulhu]

You're not going to beat the fact that the developers make 4 times as much money off a digital copy over a physical. Even if sales dropped by 50% they'd still be better off.. but total market size (once you add the MMO's back in) is actually growing.

But I'm pretty sure they are the guys who fucked me over with a version of Sword of the stars that required special D2D patches only, and was always a patch behind current, which meant that it couldn't be used for the one thing I bought it for, playing online multiplayer...

Yeah, this is true. D2D is tiny compared to steam (Steam probably has 70% of the total market, so D2D is a dwarf by comparison) so some developers are really lazy about developing patches for D2D (they have to be different because D2D games are installed differently because you don't have a CD)

Some developers complain D2D is sluggish about posting patches, but it's a week tops - most significant delays are fucking lazy developers. Buyer beware.

The think I don't get is stuff like this

Half an hour later with a great deal of effort you may have wrangled it into turning off all the patching and switched things back to offline mode and such.

That never actually happens to me. Or my housemate, or the guy across the road or the guys I play TF2 with or my university mates. I am prepared to agree it probably does happen though!

[Leress]

...and a game where the main character gets hit by a truck right at the start, so you have to take over

Z.H.P (Zettai Hero Project): Unlosing Hero vs Darkdeath Evilman.

Also on PS3 is Cross Edge ( I don't own this one so I can't really give an opinion on it)

[Surgo]

Have to say that I agree with D2D being ass, at least. Their games are encrypted in some silly way that makes anything that modifies the memory not work unless specially made for D2D. This includes regular game patches (yuck) as well as key utilities for certain games like the Oblivion Script Extender (sorry, D2D buyers!).

There is one other high-profile online games retailer, but I don't know if it sells in Australia: GoodOldGames.com. No DRM, period. They were a bit slow on the patch process, but they only ever had to do it once and probably weren't expecting to have to patch any of the games that they sell

[PhoneLobster]

but total market size (once you add the MMO's back in)

So... once you start lying your fucking ass off about what products and distributors you are talking about

so some developers are really lazy about developing patches for D2D (they have to be different because D2D games are installed differently because you don't have a CD)

This is not true on two fronts.

1) Much as with steam developers hand D2D a patch, and D2D is responsible for converting it to their technology. At least if anyone other than D2D/Steam fan boys can be believed, like say, the various game developers.

2) No, that is not how it "has to be different". There is no "has to" in the process, there is only "chooses to".

That never actually happens to me.

That is because of the following reasons.

1) you are a retarded fan boy, you definition ally exist in a subjective reality that cannot be reproduced in the laboratory or explained with logical reason.

2) If you eat Steam's shit with a spoon on a regular basis it goes down easier. If you turn all your games to auto patch they WON'T all patch at once, if you DON'T use off line mode for everything then the forced Steam Client updates WON'T time at the same time as the autopatches, if you DO let Steam's bloated spyware client sit on your desktop running at ALL times patching won't happen exactly when you want to run your games and the client won't need to log in basically every time you boot your "offline mode" games.

Of course to benefit from 2 you are expending internet resources in large amounts effectively unpredictably so then your internet connection will randomly clog up and crap out whenever Steam suddenly feels like humping it for a new must have patch to that game you haven't played for 2 years...

But yes, if you are a Steam Fan wanker who actually plays Team Fortress regularly the side effect of that will be that you will have significantly less problems with Steam. Because Steam is designed like a horrendously addictive drug, some of it's worst symptoms come with withdrawal when you try and get yourself clean.

[cthulhu]

but total market size (once you add the MMO's back in)

So... once you start lying your fucking ass off about what products and distributors you are talking about

What? PC full game sales are down year on year. MMO subscription sales are up by more than the delta.

With MMO subscriptions out of the picture, digital sales make up approximately half of all full game sales. (47% by value, almost 60 by volume).

Which bit was a lie? You are generically accusing me of lying, without addressing a specific facts.

There is one other high-profile online games retailer, but I don't know if it sells in Australia: GoodOldGames.com. No DRM, period. They were a bit slow on the patch process, but they only ever had to do it once and probably weren't expecting to have to patch any of the games that they sell Tongue

Good old games are interesting, and a cool idea - but reality is they are totally irrelevant from the perspective of the larger market. Sales value is just not on the same scale as Steam, WoW or D2D.

edit: Shit, I forgot EA.com

Err.. yeah, add them back in before.

The flip side is this is piss all compared to

A) The console market, which is, and always has been 3 times the size of the PC market

B) The gaming PC hardware market, which is 6 times the size of the market for actual software.

[PhoneLobster]

What? PC full game sales are down year on year.

Which is precisely what you were lying about and continue to try and obfuscate so as to dispute my suggestion that hideously invasive DRM like Steam is one of the primary reasons for the shrinking market.

There that was easy wasn't it.

God I hate Steam fan boys.

They will say ANYTHING.

[Zinegata]

PL needs to realize that Steam does, in fact, work well enough for most people.

I've never used Steam but I know enough people who've never had major issued with getting just about all their games via D2D nowadays.

Also, the reason for the shrinking market is the bad economy, and the fact that people are buying family games (i.e. Boardgames) that are cheaper for an entire family in the long run as opposed to a (generally) single-player PC game experience. Which also has electricity costs, and Internet/subscription costs (for MMOs/multiplayers)

[cthulhu]

What? PC full game sales are down year on year.

Which is precisely what you were lying about and continue to try and obfuscate so as to dispute my suggestion that hideously invasive DRM like Steam is one of the primary reasons for the shrinking market.

There that was easy wasn't it.

God I hate Steam fan boys.

They will say ANYTHING.

The market is only shrinking if you don't think World of Warcraft is part of the 'PC Games Market'

I think that is patently fucking absurd.

[Goldor]

If your going to mention small fry like Gog, then you need to mention GamersGate.com as well XD.

If you have a problem with DRM (Such as only being able to install a few times) they will fix it for you, for free, with out a problem.

[Rathe]

Hey all,

Quick question regarding Steam. Is it possible to circumvent the online patching process and play it offline, by having decent firewall settings and telling it to frag off when it wants to connect? Or is it evil enough that is HAS to connect at least once before you can ever play the titles?

Just wondering, before spending any money on the stuff.

- Rathe

[name_here]

It's DRM. You have to connect to activate it. It's honestly not that big a deal.

Unlike, say, the EA-Ubisoft dickishness contest that is why I don't have C&C4.

You may be forced to download patches each time with no way to circumvent it, although the offline mode is a thing of mystery. It may work perfectly when you have no internet at all or it might not ever function. Seems to depend on who you ask.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Replaying it. And I beat Galamoth for the first town without using the cheater rod and the Alucard shield the other day. At level 33. I'm slightly proud of myself, I'm terrible with videogames.

I think that's pretty decent. I know Galamoth is the hardest boss. Of course, if you really want to cheat, just put on the circlet that makes you heal from electric damage.

Alright, that makes me feel worse because I used the circlet.

I almost died anyway because 'Moth kept kicking me in the head. Went through 6 elixirs. The only time he used the lightning was when he was almost dead .

[PhoneLobster]

Seems to depend on who you ask.

Only Steam fan boys say it works perfectly and requires a one time activation.

Because they don't actually use it and indeed don't even research the actual requirements to use it.

"Offline mode" requires the steam client the steam client STILL requires you go online an update it at least some of the time. Fan boys don't know this because they still use the client and update it anyway.

And no, a fire wall will not let you circumvent this.

And yes you MUST connect at least once before you can play titles, indeed you probably don't even HAVE the complete title until you have connected for an extended period as many Steam titles have multi gig day zero patch downloads that are REQUIRED to make the game function even BEFORE you account for the rest of the DRM.

[Calibron]

Yeah, Steam can go suck a barrel of cocks, but I've never had any issues at all with Impulse or GamersGate.