Why Warlocks are Weak

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Why Warlocks are Weak

Post by Havvy »

I'm collecting a list of why WOTC warlocks are considered weak. Care to help?

Full List of Issues

* EB only goes to 9d6 damage without vitrolic blast.
* Have to take certain invocations to maintain playable at higher levels
*few options is not an acceptable trade off for unlimited use
*special abilities (energy resistance, damage reduction) are at embarrassingly low levels when you get them and, IIRC, don't improve much
*They spam embarrassingly low damage endlessly as their big shtick.
*A Minor Globe of Invuln. will make you immune to that damage.
* Most modifiers to that little damage are either so minor you don't care, have terrible (non-scaling) save DCs or both.
*They get fewer "spells" known than the frigging Sorcerer, and with an even smaller selection
*Of those, some are plain crap, and many don't really benefit from the at-will thing. Examples: self-only buff that lasts all day, "Duration: Concentration" and the like
*The few good combinations they can pull off, the Wizard can do better and (usually) earlier, and still cast other useful spells. Getting to add CL *Cold damage each round to the Black Tentacles is not a valid pay-off.
*If you even care about making your at-will damage trick good, you need to jump through hoops (HF Warlock, Racial Bloodline Levels, the Soulmeld Feat, a non-CA Blast Shape (Eldritch Glaive), Quicken SLA...)
*The DR and ER are flat-out insulting, and the FH is only useful if you are in a game that lacks wands of CLW
*They need more feats than they have, and they need more skills than they have
*They have maybe five PrCl choices and nearly all of them suck balls
*Secondly, almost all their powers that have out of combat utility are nerfed so that you can't get any benefit for having the ability to spam them.
*Like any Cha-based arcana caster, you need a high CHA which (outside of your class abilities doesn't do much - you don't get more skill points like the wizard or even a higher will save / spot check). You can have a bonus on Diplomacy checks instead, which will not quite counteract the likely RP penalties of being a warlock i.e. everyone possibly wanting to burn you at the stake.
*Even from Cha, benefit is relatively lower as there is no increase in number of powers known (flexibility), only save DCs and a few tangential effects like Dark Ones' Own Luck.
*Of their limited options, most will probably have to be spent upgrading the eldritch blast via essence or blast shape invocations.
*No races with significant synergy with the class (e.g. nothing with favoured class- warlock, and Cha bonuses for PC races are rare).
*The level-1 trap option (Hideous Blow) I think deserves special mention - a Concentration check required to use like any SLA, and the power makes actually harder with the Eldritch Blast harder.
*They did escape the normal proviso/kick to the groin with regard to use of metamagic feats on spontaneous effects - since they're not capable of using metamagic normally at all.
*Take Black Tentacles. Awesome spell, having it at will should be even more awesome, since you can fill a room, sculpt walls, or re-net stragglers. But it turns out that it's way less exciting as a level 11 ability than a level 7 one. Too many grapple checks are too high by that point.
*Lower level abilities must be usable through all 20 levels to be viable as a choice.
K wrote:Warlocks are a response to two facts:

1. People keep taking monster races because they like at will spell-like abilities.

2. There are no dedicated "dark magic" spellcasters. Even Necromancers are played as "the guys who use fruity Hideous Laughters and Glitterdusts and illusion spells and sometimes casts Animate Dead.
So far a nice compilation. Thanks. (I'll continue to add anything new)
Last edited by Havvy on Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:46 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Prak »

*few options is not an acceptable trade off for unlimited use
*special abilities (energy resistance, damage reduction) are at embarrassingly low levels when you get them and, IIRC, don't improve much
Last edited by Prak on Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Koumei »

Sure, let's do this:

[*]They spam embarrassingly low damage endlessly as their big shtick.
[*]A fucking Minor Globe of Invuln. will make you immune to that damage.
[*]Most modifiers to that little damage are either so minor you don't care, have terrible (non-scaling) save DCs or both.
[*]They get fewer "spells" known than the frigging Sorcerer, and with an even smaller selection
[*]Of those, some are plain crap, and many don't really benefit from the at-will thing. Examples: self-only buff that lasts all day, "Duration: Concentration" and the like
[*]The few good combinations they can pull off, the Wizard can do better and (usually) earlier, and still cast other useful spells. Getting to add CL Cold damage each round to the Black Tentacles is not a valid pay-off.
[*]If you even care about making your at-will damage trick good, you need to jump through hoops (HF Warlock, Racial Bloodline Levels, the Soulmeld Feat, a non-CA Blast Shape (Eldritch Glaive), Quicken SLA...)
[*]The DR and ER are flat-out insulting, and the FH is only useful if you are in a game that lacks wands of CLW
[*]They need more feats than they have, and they need more skills than they have
[*]They have maybe five PrCl choices and nearly all of them suck balls

In their favour:
[*]At an early level, they can wander around with Magi-Vision on all day and get their Search to +19 and auto-detect any trap (DC 20+? It's Magic)
[*]They can scribe Arcane scrolls of Divine spells to hand to the Wizard to learn. Wait, that's a good thing about Wizards, not Warlocks.
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Post by cthulhu »

The basic issue is that very little of their stuff is really meaningful in combat. At an arbitrary level whatever they are doing tends to be less effective than the guys either side of them.

Now technically they CAN do it forever, but combat doesn't actually last forever.

So while "Few options not an acceptable trade off for unlimited use" gets to part of the problem, it doesn't actually address. Frank's fire mage or barbarian both have VERY few options to use, just that they are pretty good. At level 5 a slightly buffed fireball is a contributor every turn of combat.

So the warlock has:

A limited range of shitty options, which needs to be fixed by either buffing the options or giving a greater range of options so you always have exactly what is needed.
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Post by Username17 »

We're talking about the Complete Arcane Warlock, right? Not the 4e Warlock (who is coincidentally, also weak sauce).

Eldritch Blast is a joke. It does as much damage as a sneak attack, and you only get one of them a turn instead of one per attack. At low levels it's worse than being a Rogue, at high levels it is just fucking embarrassing.

Secondly, almost all their powers that have out of combat utility are nerfed so that you can't get any benefit for having the ability to spam them. Their charm and animate dead hacks are both only one target at a time, making them actually weaker than the Wizard versions even if the wizard version is only prepared once a day. There are a few gems (at-will Shatter is pretty damn nice), but as a rule it's just like being a Wizard except your spells are weaker and you don't get as many of them.

What few power moves that Warlocks have are so out-there that DMs won't really let you use them. No one will actually let you sit there stacking untyped bonuses to your social skills for 2 hours to get +7200 to your Diplomancy tests for the rest of the day. That's stupid. But when people deliver the obvious typo fix of giving that power a bonus type, it's incredibly weak, and there is no in-between.

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Post by virgil »

The ability to spam effective battlefield control can actually give you the ability to handle more and bigger encounters that a non-tactical DM can even envision. If I hadn't been threatened by the DM, my 10th level (11th?) warlock would've single-handedly defeated a 100+ army of stone and hill giants before dawn, thanks to endless uses of fly, invisibility, and wall of fire.

Granted, that says more about the DM's ability to design/adapt an adventure (silly Rise of the Runelords) than the warlock, but being in such a scenario is a non-zero chance.
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Post by Orion »

Intriguing, Virgil, though I must say that when I was SGTing the Warlock, I found their crowd-control much less effective than I'd hoped. They tend to get really cool spells just a little too late to do anything.

Take Black Tentacles. Awesome spell, having it at will should be even more awesome, since you can fill a room, sculpt walls, or re-net stragglers. But it turns out that it's way less exciting as a level 11 ability than a level 7 one. Too many grapple checks are too high by that point.
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Post by CCarter »

*Like any Cha-based arcana caster, you need a high CHA which (outside of your class abilities doesn't do much - you don't get more skill points like the wizard or even a higher will save / spot check). You can have a bonus on Diplomacy checks instead, which will not quite counteract the likely RP penalties of being a warlock i.e. everyone possibly wanting to burn you at the stake.
*Even from Cha, benefit is relatively lower as there is no increase in number of powers known (flexibility), only save DCs and a few tangential effects like Dark Ones' Own Luck.

*Of their limited options, most will probably have to be spent upgrading the eldritch blast via essence or blast shape invocations.

*No races with significant synergy with the class (e.g. nothing with favoured class- warlock, and Cha bonuses for PC races are rare).

*The level-1 trap option (Hideous Blow) I think deserves special mention - a Concentration check required to use like any SLA, and the power makes actually harder with the Eldritch Blast harder.

They did escape the normal proviso/kick to the groin with regard to use of metamagic feats on spontaneous effects - since they're not capable of using metamagic normally at all.
Last edited by CCarter on Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RelentlessImp »

CCarter wrote:*Like any Cha-based arcana caster, you need a high CHA which (outside of your class abilities doesn't do much - you don't get more skill points like the wizard or even a higher will save / spot check). You can have a bonus on Diplomacy checks instead, which will not quite counteract the likely RP penalties of being a warlock i.e. everyone possibly wanting to burn you at the stake.
Bit of a misnomer; all the CHA does is boost the few Invocations that actually have saves. You can play a somewhat functional warlock (before, you know, the game changes) without any more than a 14 in Charisma. Just don't take any invocations that allow saves.
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Roy »

If you even care about making your at-will damage trick good, you need to jump through hoops (HF Warlock, Racial Bloodline Levels, the Soulmeld Feat, a non-CA Blast Shape (Eldritch Glaive), Quicken SLA...)
How about: Even with those things, you're still not great. As much as people bitch and whine about Hellfire Warlocks being overpowered even in high powered games what you're doing, at best is 60 damage a hit in melee at level 20. Fucking gimp ass sword and board characters can do 60 a hit in melee at level 20.
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Post by Koumei »

Their biggest "cheese" (and compared to REAL cheese, it's that spray-on shit that crappy burgers have) involves:

3 reach melee touch attacks per round for 21d6 (level 20) Your Mum damage
Plus 1/day making an RTA for 21d6 Your Mum damage
Except there's four or five of you (Body Outside Body scrolls you scribed)
Just kidding, eight or ten (you swindled a Familiar and took the feat that lets you share spells out to 1 mile... yes you have basically used all your feats already*)
And you're probably actually Dragons or some bullshit (you can add your Str to the touch attacks and the damage), maybe a Choker for the extra action per round (another RTA for 21d6) (Shapechange from scroll obviously)

It's very late-game for this to kick in. And it's "doing a lot of damage". And it's not even the "lot of damage" that a Flasked Avenger does if they also abuse Body Outside Body. And this is all the monkeying about to be as broken as you can get.

As opposed to being a level 1 Wizard going "Colour Spray, lol." So don't worry, I am in no way suggesting it's a GOOD or IMPRESSIVE trick. And hell, you've used so many books at this point (including Dragon for the reach-link feat) that the chances of "NO!" are very high. And the Natural Spell Druid is still totally fine to wander in.

*Swindle Familiar, Reach Familiar, Quicken SLA, Magic of Blue (Vest), Scribe Scroll, oh boy you have two more choices!
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Post by Kaelik »

Better idea Koumei, describe that same character at level 13.

No Body Outside Body, Shapechange, just some boring damage that isn't even as impressive as Barbarian, who can at least charge, unlike you.
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Post by hogarth »

FrankTrollman wrote:Eldritch Blast is a joke. It does as much damage as a sneak attack, and you only get one of them a turn instead of one per attack. At low levels it's worse than being a Rogue, at high levels it is just fucking embarrassing.
I found that the warlock in my game peaked at about level 3 (2d6 auto-hit ranged damage and Shatter/Summon Swarm are at least in the ballpark of appropriate abilities) and went downhill rapidly from there.
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Post by sake »

Would simply giving them all of their incantations, blast shapes and essences as they leveled up help much? They'd still be weak but they'd have an endless toolbox of useful stuff to do in any situation, which is a hell of a lot better than some classes get.
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Post by Aharon »

There's a feat similar to Arcane Strike in the Book of Vile Darkness that lets you add 2d6 damage to one of your spell-likes 5/day. It's... something, but by far not enough to save the class.
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Post by hogarth »

sake wrote:Would simply giving them all of their incantations, blast shapes and essences as they leveled up help much? They'd still be weak but they'd have an endless toolbox of useful stuff to do in any situation, which is a hell of a lot better than some classes get.
It wouldn't hurt, but generally there's only a couple of interesting choices at any given level anyways.

But first of all I'd boost the eldritch blast ability, like by making it an (Su) ability, and/or adding Cha bonus to damage, and/or allowing iterative attacks with it. (Or whatever.)
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Post by K »

One problem with Warlock is just that it's not supported. I mean, almost every splat book ever published drops in a few spells for cleric and wizards and some feats, but Warlock had new invocations added around three times (and one was for incarnum, so that doesn't count). They seriously get a list that is smaller than the list for PrC mini-casters like the Assassin. Heck, they even made a second Warlock class themed for dragons with an incompatible list!

This becomes a real issue when you look at the various feats that spellcasters get that Warlock don't. DC-boosting and damage boosting is just one of the many ways they kinda suck

They also had a problem where lots of choices you make are just bad, so making a fail Warlock was very easy. I mean, blowing a whole invocation on something like Hideous Blow was a terrible idea unless you were doing something like combining the blow with a Spell Storing weapon with another blast in it (and even then it's not great).

That being said, the authentically good things you can do with Warlock feel a lot like cheating and so get spot nerfed or just not used. Here are a few:

-the various monster feats for Improved Spell-like Ability can be used for a massive damage boost when stacked. Use an Empowered, Maximized Eldritch Blast and a Quickened, Empowered, Maximized Eldritch Blast on round one and that adds up to a lot of damage. Usually it's enough to one-shot something level appropriate. Violate SLA turns half the damage vile, which means you can kill regenning and fast healing things in a particularly nasty way. Mortalbane adds another 2d6 when you need it.

But that's about it. Further optimization with items and PrCs adds some damage, but not enough really compared to what a dedicated Wizard or Sorcerer could do.

-There is a feat in Savage Species that lets you turn a SLA in a Supernatural ability. Later nerfed in some Sage answers (so who cares, really, since he's always wrong), it was a great way to make all your blasts ignore SR AND avoid Concentration checks and provoking AoOs.

-The ability to make any magic item and be a UMD master means you can cherry pick all the awesome spells from weird little lists and make them into scrolls. Considering that there are dozens of spells so rare or you'd only use once (like the one that makes you permanently cold-subtyped), this is an abusers dream.

-Various invocations to combat control combined with the invocation to animate a single enemy means you can wear down enemies over many, many round. Considering that DnD rounds take 30 mins usually, the ability to kill literally limitless hordes over tens or rounds is a lot less impressive than people would like.

-Various invocations are just awesome if you abuse the crap out of them. I mean, Invisibility at will is seriously awesome at low levels, but at some point you just own a Ring of Invisibility and no one cares. Personal Flight is also awesome, but again at the point when the whole party has all day Overland Flight no one cares. Shatter at will is always your bud, but it's no game-changer. Charm at will is nice, but after a while people are going to get pissed that you charm every enemy. D-door at will ends a lot of infiltration adventures. Having a constant zombie/skele at your side can be really good, especially since you can combat raise as your current one falls.


In the final evaluation, it stacks up with the fail classes. You basically aren't like a spellcaster at all, so you may make your fighter and Rogue jealous, but your cleric is going to snigger at you every round.
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Post by Princess »

Warlock is quite gimpy but his Imbue Item is quite cheezy. Bad for Warlock, it is so bad at design so almost every GM somehow restricts it. As I once told, if your master allow Warlocks unlimited use of Imbue Item for scrolls... Then it might end that warlocks will be writing scrolls for wizards. And I hope this warlocks will get paid instead of being chained dominated slaves with "scroll-writing" meaning of life.

This class is good for low-optimize gaming companies or at low-level. I house ruled it to receive invocation at each level and x5 of fast healing, not mentioning very slight speed up of Eldritch Blast progression. Still I think it's not enough.
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Post by Echoes »

The only thing EB is good for is tossing off Fort save or be nauseated for 1 minute every round (at like 11th level). Chain that, and it's actually a fairly decent multi-target SoD. The damage blows, but you're here to make people throw up for a minute, and that works on a decent chunk of stuff. It's a shame Fort saves tend to be the highest, but there are ways to boost that to unreasonable levels. Even damage-optimised EB blows chunks next to a decently-buily rogue or charger.

Now, if you brought other shit to the table that people cared about, you'd be a viable class. Since that's pretty much your only combat trick besides baleful polymorph (which you get at something like 16th, when the Sorcerer is picking up PAO), no one cares about you. Theoretically, you could abuse UMD and scrolls/wands of random obscure spells, but even that's more of a pain in the ass than it's worth.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Princess wrote:This class is good for low-optimize gaming companies or at low-level. I house ruled it to receive invocation at each level and x5 of fast healing, not mentioning very slight speed up of Eldritch Blast progression. Still I think it's not enough.
It is decent at low levels and it's a newbie-friendly class. Adding the extra invocations and EB damage would help, but it wouldn't be a real fix. Basically, it'd allow them to graduate from a total newbie-party to one that was barely optimizing. They'd still be firmly behind casters.
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Post by Havvy »

*Lower level abilities must be usable through all 20 levels to be viable as a choice.
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Post by Koumei »

Kaelik: oh, you want the Warlock described when an actual game might take place as opposed to CO-Board Final Destination? Wow, that's asking a lot!

Said Warlock has 2 attacks per round. The familiar can share spells, but is sharing something like a Polymorph so could be a "smack enemies around" critter but not using Breath Weapons and shit. At half your (d6 lol) hit points. This sounds like an awesome idea, right?

Your touch attacks are doing 12d6 Fuck You damage each, and... most people don't even care. So you can do "Kind of okay I guess" damage. When using all your best tjeese.

Want to see it at level six? Sure you do! Two of your levels aren't even levels (Bloodlines), which hurts at this level (see: HP). You don't have your familiar (or if you do, it isn't sharing any decent spells, especially not at a distance) and you are blasting for, wait for it, 3d6. One attack per turn. And you should be fucking ashamed.
Princess wrote:Warlock is quite gimpy but his Imbue Item is quite cheezy.
I used it to become a Dry Lich once. It was a reasonably decent deal.
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Post by Princess »

RobbyPants wrote:It is decent at low levels and it's a newbie-friendly class. Adding the extra invocations and EB damage would help, but it wouldn't be a real fix. Basically, it'd allow them to graduate from a total newbie-party to one that was barely optimizing. They'd still be firmly behind casters.
You may call me control freak, but I don't want each class being as powerful as wizard/codzilla/psion. I once had experience with fullcaster party — and I figured out that only decent combat challenge against such party is made through some abusing or unballanced abilities or through opposed spellcasters.
So my purpose is to make class viable, not "obviously suck" nor "trap choice". Speaking of which, may be I have to increase their DR to at least twice it's current value and to invent some new class features, like drawing in to sor/wiz list for spells to make invocations (large field to abusing, testing needed)
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Post by Prak »

Hm, I was going to become a lich that way with my last one, but I didn't have the down time, so I just talked the DM into having a Lich cult in world that had ready made phylacteries lying around and able to do a ritual to make me a lich.

I was surprised that flew.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Princess wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:It is decent at low levels and it's a newbie-friendly class. Adding the extra invocations and EB damage would help, but it wouldn't be a real fix. Basically, it'd allow them to graduate from a total newbie-party to one that was barely optimizing. They'd still be firmly behind casters.
You may call me control freak, but I don't want each class being as powerful as wizard/codzilla/psion. I once had experience with fullcaster party — and I figured out that only decent combat challenge against such party is made through some abusing or unballanced abilities or through opposed spellcasters.
So my purpose is to make class viable, not "obviously suck" nor "trap choice". Speaking of which, may be I have to increase their DR to at least twice it's current value and to invent some new class features, like drawing in to sor/wiz list for spells to make invocations (large field to abusing, testing needed)
In that case, add in the ability either to swap invocations every level, or perhaps to swap all your invocations every level.

One of the biggest problems with the warlock is that if you make a bad invocation choice, you're stuck with that. This would make it more forgiving to players, and it'd still fall in the power level you're looking for.
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