Need some advice: Playing a 'Core' character in the WLD

[Judging__Eagle]

Okay, so we're going to be playing this World's Largest Dungeoun game; again (3rd start now).

Only this time we've got the following restrictions:

1. Core classes/races

So, while a RoW Human fighter is out...

A Deep Halfing or Forest Gnome rogue is in; as is the Grey Elf wizard.

Also, Deep Dwarf is pretty awesome for an all underground game. Only a -1 to attack, search and spot checks is easy enough to live with for 90' of darkvision and +3 to all saves except for mechanical traps.

2. 84 free buy; no stat can be below 8 or above 18 before racial modifiers.

3. We get max fighter gold (250 gp) at the start

Food/water is not an issue; gear and other crap (like getting and learning new spells) is though.

I'm thinking either that human fighter that I statted out in the 'comparing the core fighter and the RoW fighter' thread.

Since it's okay, for a core fighter and it abuses AoO wierdness.

That or play a grey elf wizard; since DC 16 spells at lvl 1 is awesome (yeah, I'm gonna go for the 18 int, 20 with racial mod, might as well).

So, yeah....

Deep Dwarf fighter or Grey Elf wizard.

I usually play our group's Batman. So, I'm thinking Wizard is a good bet.

I'm gonna reccomend our group's 'role player' to play a sombre Deep Dwarf fighter; with a big axe. So he can kill shit.

I'm gonna tell the guy who's making a rogue (Brodignagian) to reroll his guy as a Deep Halfing; loses +2 to move silently, climb and jump.

He does however gain Darkvision 60 ' (great for a rogue) as well as Stonecunning and +2 to appraise/craft checks relating to stone or metal.

We've already got our groups natural athlete (seriously, this guy is the laziest mofo I know, but he's in amazing shape; I blame his youth and his genes) who's playing a monk (what a surprise?! he always plays monks) who also happens to be a half-orc.

Hmm, I might dump my grey elf race and go Deep Dwarf as well; thus forcing everyone who joins the group later to be a race with darkvision. Just an idea.

I think that taking the feat out of complete arcane that gives you a double your spells known per level (1st lvl only feat, something about training or research and I know it's not with the normal Comp Arcane feats section).

In order to gain 6 + int mod 1st lvl spells and 4 spells new per level.



In any case, I'm always open to suggestions.

[Iaimeki]

Why not play a druid?

[shau]

I am not directly familiar with the WLD myself, but people say that it has the most amazing hard on for warrior types. Like having around 15 encounters until you can rest. This is then used to justify the fact that fighters are not weak because the wizard ran out of spells six fights ago. If you can get around having a character that does something X times per day that would probably be for the best.

[Josh_Kablack]

1174800768[/unixtime]]I am not directly familiar with the WLD myself, but people say that it has the most amazing hard on for warrior types. Like having around 15 encounters until you can rest.

Well that doesn't make a lick of sense, as warriors don't heal themselves and the system assumes PCs will take damage in most encounters.

But it does point the way towards your character class: Elf Wizard.

Composite Longbow makes you almost viable without spells and being able to subvert the design intent at level 5 is priceless.

Other characters should be a magic domain cleric (for component free identify)and someone with at least one rogue level.

[Iaimeki]

1174801762[/unixtime]]Composite Longbow makes you almost viable without spells and being able to subvert the design intent at level 5 is priceless.

How do you mean?

[Sma]

Probably Extended Rope Trick.

[User3]

Composite Longbow makes you almost viable without spells and being able to subvert the design intent at level 5 is priceless.

Because the BAB difference at low levels is so minor that a level 4 elven wizard will be 2 BAB below a dwarven fighter. But the wizard can cast magic weapon on his stuff and he already has a +1 bonus to hit from being a wizard. It's possible that the dwarven fighter or any other sword-based characters will actually have no dexterity bonus or even a penalty.

It's very possible unless you have an experienced cleric or a rogue played to type in the party that the wizard will be the best archer you have.

...

If you're going elven wizard, you want races of the wild. The racial substitution levels for wizard are so cheesy that it's ridiculous.

[MrWaeseL]

I'm not really sure where you're going since you say only core races are allowed but go on to mention that a human fighter is out and you're gonna play a Duergar.

In any case, Drow are pretty good for such a campaign. Really. They get 90 feet darkvision, which is 30 feet more than any other race. being able to shoot at things 'invisibly' without them seeing you is pretty awesome. Also you'll have surprise every combat.

[bitnine]

Depending on how harsh low-level survival may be, you might consider Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Abrupt Jaunt if doing the wizard angle. Particularly if retraining is allowed for the former down the road. 9 hp and the ability to negate (full) attacks 5/day can be helpful in getting out of level 1 and to that extended rope trick.

[Catharz]

1174836683[/unixtime]]
In any case, Drow are pretty good for such a campaign. Really. They get 90 feet darkvision, which is 30 feet more than any other race. being able to shoot at things 'invisibly' without them seeing you is pretty awesome. Also you'll have surprise every combat.

Deep dwarves are basically a slap in the face to anyone who ever wanted to play a drow. They get every trait a drow should have, but at no LA.

If the exact same adjustments were made for 'deep elves,' many fanboy and fangirl tears would not have been shed.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I know you will probably hate me for this, but if you are looking at 15 encounters per day as a wizard, you may want to consider the direct damage Reserve Feats in Complete Mage. Range touches are superior to the bow strikes, but cost a feat to do it all day long.

Please don't hurt me.

Of course, you could take the 12 hour night route where you craft scrolls for the first four hours to improve your longevity.

[Iaimeki]

From my understanding of the WLD, there are only two valid races: deep dwarves and deep halflings. Deep dwarves get 90' darkvision (longer than most humanoids') and even higher boni than usual for dwarves for a disadvantage that barely matters in the dungeon. Deep halflings have darkvision, stonecunning, and the usual halfling advantages. Drow have LA and ordinary elves don't have darkvision (a crippling disadvantage until you get darkvision, which may not ever happen, because of the design intent for enemies to spot light sources miles away).

The value of wizards depends entirely on how nice your DM is feeling. They actually recommend screwing wizards out of one of their key class features, the ability to get two new spells every level, which if implemented leaves you entirely at your DM's mercy to be able to do anything. Druids and clerics have all their usual advantages and then some. I mean, seriously, if you aren't getting wands of CLW, you're going to need healing spells like no one's business, especially given the entire thing is filled with arbitrary Gygaxian bullshit. When you add in the fact that melee characters can't do a damn thing to an increasing proportion of monsters as CR goes up, I think it's a much better gamble to be a divine caster and use long-lasting buffs than to hope that somehow endurance will tell.

[NineInchNall]

ACK! Don't go north! Hordes of shadows abound. *shiver*

My group's in region E of the dungeon right now. We're three people at level six. I'll tell you, being a Druid is really, really good in this place. As is being a Cleric. I seriously see no reason to be any other class.

The dungeon's also full of stupid house rules. For example:

• No taking 10. The authors think taking 10 is boring, so they made it illegal.
  
• Wizards don't learn two new spells automatically at each level, because "it can't be justified". This is obviously written by people who require training to advance in levels.
  
• Summoning does not work. Like, at all. Seriously. They just make it illegal.
  
• In fact, anything that uses anything extradimensional doesn't work. Bags of holding, rope trick, teleport, they all cease to function in the dungeon.

[Josh_Kablack]

1174868058[/unixtime]]
The dungeon's also full of stupid house rules. For example:

• No taking 10. The authors think taking 10 is boring, so they made it illegal.

Because obviously, sitting around and watching the rogue player roll dice repeatedly until he gets an average result is exciting.

[*]Wizards don't learn two new spells automatically at each level, because "it can't be justified". This is obviously written by people who require training to advance in levels.

Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

So something that explicitly takes zero time cannot be justified?

I'm thinking they just wanted to ban wizards but didn't know how to write those words.

[*]Summoning does not work. Like, at all. Seriously. They just make it illegal.

So you'll have to rely on Animate Dead, Charm Monster and Animal Companion to get disposable minions.

[*]In fact, anything that uses anything extradimensional doesn't work. Bags of holding, rope trick, teleport, they all cease to function in the dungeon.[/list]

Then you'll want some wheelbarrows for starting equipment. And dwarves get a lot better, as you'll have to substitue actual stonemasonry for Rope Trick to get a safe resting area.

Remember to bring up the extra-dimensional movement ban when fighting Ethereal Filchers, Blink Dogs, Demons, Devils, Ethereal Filchers, Ghosts, Githyanki, Night Hags, Phase Spiders, and the many other monsters with x-d movement or built-in summoning abilities.

All and all that's a pretty strong set of wizard hoses, that miraculously does very little to nerf Druids or Clerics.

With no summons and no teleport, I'd recommend a character specializing in grappling and/or entangling and barrier magic.

You could do a very solid Strength domain cleric grappler and Druids get a list full of entangling/barrier and battlefield control spells.

[ObiWayneKenobi]

If I recall, the authors also say to ban the Druid. But honestly I think that adventure is a load of bullshit. My old group played through it and we were bored to tears about three sessions in.

[Brobdingnagian]

All-out dungeon crawl with core rules except suckier? Of course it's bullshit. There's fvcking nothing. Any idiot could do it.

...

So our DM's made it a little more interesting. Can't tell you how, because then I'd be metagaming and JE would figure some ways around it. Sorry pal, but I'm going to do the game-breaking this time.

...

Coming from the guy playing a Goblin.

[NineInchNall]

1174883388[/unixtime]]

1174868058[/unixtime]]
The dungeon's also full of stupid house rules. For example:

• No taking 10. The authors think taking 10 is boring, so they made it illegal.

Because obviously, sitting around and watching the rogue player roll dice repeatedly until he gets an average result is exciting.

Because obviously, that's not at all what taking 10 means. You're thinking of taking 20.

Taking 10 means you're making a single attempt, but you're being careful and making sure you're doing it right. This takes no more time than a normal check, because it is a normal check.

Taking 10
When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.

Taking 20
When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

And there's the text.

So something that explicitly takes zero time cannot be justified?

I'm thinking they just wanted to ban wizards but didn't know how to write those words.

Amen.

So you'll have to rely on Animate Dead, Charm Monster and Animal Companion to get disposable minions.

Yup.

Then you'll want some wheelbarrows for starting equipment. And dwarves get a lot better, as you'll have to substitue actual stonemasonry for Rope Trick to get a safe resting area.

Remember to bring up the extra-dimensional movement ban when fighting Ethereal Filchers, Blink Dogs, Demons, Devils, Ethereal Filchers, Ghosts, Githyanki, Night Hags, Phase Spiders, and the many other monsters with x-d movement or built-in summoning abilities.

Oh, you can believe that I'll be doing exactly that. It even screws with a lot of basic things like the incorporeal template. I'm so going to be going on a good-for-the-goose-good-for-the-gander tangent.

All and all that's a pretty strong set of wizard hoses, that miraculously does very little to nerf Druids or Clerics.

And a-yup. Guess why I'm playing a Druid.

[RandomCasualty]

1174883563[/unixtime]]If I recall, the authors also say to ban the Druid. But honestly I think that adventure is a load of bullshit. My old group played through it and we were bored to tears about three sessions in.

Wow awesome. lol.

[erik]

A big consideration that hasn't been addressed yet is that I'd say the crappy point buy/free buy whatever system is going to hose most any character who has multiple ability dependency.

After you buy up your stats to the 8 minumum, you are left with 20 points to burn. That means for an average spread, you are looking at 14/14/14/10/8/8, so a 20 pt buy, which is pretty shitty. However this doesn't hurt wizards, or very focused characters.

The half-orc monk for example could function just fine with 20 str/18 con and 6's and 8's for everything else. He'll make a decent grappler, and can bash crap with a stick when necessary.

The 20 int grey elf wizard is going to still be pretty crappy with a longbow since he can't afford the stats to actually use it and deal noticable damage, but that's okay. I'd be tempted to play a sorcerer instead of a wizard, simply to not have to deal with the stupid crap about not getting spells.

Don't forget among darkvision races, goblins and kobolds are okay as well. If I were to play this module, I'd likely want a half-orc grappler (could be any fighting class, even a cleric, though beware the crappy stats required), a deep halfling rogue, a kobold sorcerer, and a goblin druid or cleric.

A cleric who can control undead instead of destroying them could easily abuse shadows to simply win against half the crap in the dungeon/monster manual. I'd enjoy playing this with an all-evil party methinks.

[Josh_Kablack]

1174887368[/unixtime]]A big consideration that hasn't been addressed yet is that I'd say the crappy point buy/free buy whatever system is going to hose most any character who has multiple ability dependency.

After you buy up your stats to the 8 minumum, you are left with 20 points to burn. That means for an average spread, you are looking at 14/14/14/10/8/8, so a 20 pt buy, which is pretty shitty.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what "free buy" means, but

84 / 6 = 14

So what am I missing that prevent it to working out to 14/14/14/14/14/14 or 18/18/18/10/10/10 ?

[Brobdingnagian]

Um, nothing. I helped the DM decide how many points to use for the free buy. We decided on free buy because it's easier for the less rules-savvy players (aka everyone but myself and JE) to use.

I told our DM that a sixty point free buy meant 10 in every stat, or total ability modifiers equaling zero. He wanted more, though this may be resultant of his first character being rolled using 5d6, reroll ones and twos.

I told him an eighty-point free buy would be balanced enough, but anything from 76-84 would work. As he always does, he went for more power. He picked eighty-four, and yes, that means a +2 in every stat, or more/less as you see fit.

So JK, you're right, and clikml, work on your math.

[erik]

Heh, that would be because I went insane and decided there were 8 stats for some reason. Despite listing them as six.

[MrWaeseL]

Heh, that would be because I went insane and decided there were 8 stats for some reason. Despite listing them as six.

Stats in powers of two are more balanced!

[Brobdingnagian]

Only if you give them more points to play with.

[Judging__Eagle]

Hmm, deep dwarf druid or cleric.

That could work. Points lost for lower cha, but with the druid you can really just go for stat replacement (dex is a dump stat, keep Con for HP) or buffs as a cleric.

My cha will be a bit lower if I go the cleric route, but what the hey, I'll use animated killed things as troopers.

Packing almost all of my starting gold into Onyx (in 25 gp lumps) is probably the way to go.

That means that besides a light crossbow (35 gp) and 100 bolts (5 gp) I've got 10 gp to spare and enough onyx to Raise 8 HP worth of creatures.

Hmm, that might not work out that well. If we've got a druid or cleric in the group, an Archivist could also work out; since we can do sharing spells abusivness.


Dwarven Druid won't bee to bad;
str 10,
dex 10,
con 20,
int 16*,
Wis 18,
Cha 10

*:16 int let's me max a bunch of skills (7): Concentration (Con), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis) and Survival (wis); that's 6 of 7. Heal & Handle Animal will be split once I get 5 ranks in Heal (Wis).

As for gear, I'm sorta boned since I have to run around in hide + hvy wooden sheild for AC.

I'll use darts or a sling, that's useless early on, but oh wellz.