Iron Heroes Was Always Bad

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Post by Username17 »

sigma999 wrote:So. How would you make a stunt system, then?
There are lots of ways to make a stunt system. The standard of course is the "no frills" approach, where it is up tot the player to decide that they want to use a stunt and up to the player to propose what their stunt should be, and up to Mister Cavern to decide what action checks need to be made and what bonuses accrue if it is successful. The advantage of this system is that I just described the entire flow chart of how it works in a game system that I know nothing about because I didn't even specify. Literally, you could cut and paste the center of this paragraph into a game you were writing and you would have a functional stunt system for it regardless of what that system was.

Of course, the no frills has problems. Many players are too shy to use it at all. Other players are so pushy that they just sort of inherently abuse it. Mister Cavern is being put on the spot to make up difficulties and bonuses off the top of his head, so you're quite likely to run into unbalancing maneuvers or clear unfairnesses, where the mechanical representation of, or example: throwing a table cloth on someone simply ends up so good that you'd be crazy to not fight Matador style, and the result is that either the players spend the rest of the campaign listening to Flamenco or Mister Cavern does a blatant 180 and refuses to let one player do something he allowed another player to do earlier in the campaign.

So it's not surprising that people would want something more formalized. And usually this involves getting yourself a list of stunt effects that you can do with costs listed for them. Costs can be action costs, or stunt point costs, or endurance costs, or action resolution difficulty costs, or attack penalty costs, or whatever. The way to make these more formalized systems not feel shitty is to worry extensively about balance. That is, if one stunt option is better or worse than another in a specific situation (or all situations), it is reasonable to expect that players will at least eventually figure that out and start spamming the same things over and over again. Indeed, even if your options are fairly balanced, players are going to find specific maneuvers that they like better than others. And that's going to get dull.

So for example, Dragon Age gives you a variable number of stunt points to spend each turn. But the stunts are nothing like balanced, meaning that in reality there is a very short list of stunts you actually use, and you just use the most expensive one you can afford each turn. It gets pretty boring fairly fast. In the "pick a condition from a list" systems, there is usually one condition that is better than the others, and players use that one to the exclusion of others. By making stunt potentialities more balanced, you would get players to use more of them, which in turn would cause each one to come up less and feel more special when it did.

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Re: Iron Heroes Was Always Bad

Post by Koumei »

Roy wrote:Not all the time, but often enough to be reminded that the enemy is intelligent as well.
Smarter than Mearls at the very least.
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Post by FatR »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:You know what I find annoying?

The recent trend in fantasy where it's apparently witty and edgy to go 'no, what if the forces of good and light were the monsters!' Not by actually constructing a setting where this is the case, but just by taking cliches and inverting them.
Amen to that. Goblins (past getting into the serious phase) basically reskinned humans as evil races, as traditionally depicted in DnD, and vice versa, then called it a day. Oh, and all villains of note still are ugly, disfigured and mutated, though. I guess actually getting away from beauty=goodness cliche requires more effort than simply swapping skins and drawing your monsters in a cute way...
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Post by Koumei »

I liked the first handful of Goblins comics. Where it looked like being just a bunch of cheap-shots at D&D in general, like OotS was before it decided it had to have a big plot that no-one cares about.

And if you want to do the G/E swap, the best influence should be Shrek.

Because you have the Human Alliance (humans + elves and maybe a short race), who like all the castles to be white and shiny, and all that, and they are elitist racist fucks who only accept other humans and elves into their special club of litter-free grass.

Then you have Team Darkspire (the areas they have left after HA drove them away lend themselves to spooky fortresses with proper SPIRES), who consists of "anyone who is willing to work with others, even if HA don't like you".
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Post by TheFlatline »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:You know what I find annoying?

The recent trend in fantasy where it's apparently witty and edgy to go 'no, what if the forces of good and light were the monsters!' Not by actually constructing a setting where this is the case, but just by taking cliches and inverting them.
Hey I loved the Dungeon Keeper games! (Though they admitted they were soul-devouringly evil in that game at least).

As far as Iron Heroes, I forgot where I picked it up, but I did, and I can see the intent there, and I really like it, but goddamn is it a mess. It'll never make it to table, since it's literally unplayable. I looked at the feat progression and the token system and put the book away on my bookshelf.

Which really sucks, because a system whose goals are similar to IH seems perfect for a greek mythology setting where everyone plays heroes on scale with mythology. In fact when I bought the book before I read it, that's what I was intending on running with it.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Thanks for elaborating Frank.
I'd go with maneuver-style self contained actions broken into little pieces for recombining, and of course ample use of the "action economy" if I used the term correctly.

You know, using all action types effectively spent; Swift, Move, Standard, Immediate, Free, etc.

Also, I'd separate maneuvers to two types, those that become worse as a battle progresses, and those that become better. This would provide a shifting dynamic between would-be move spamming combatants as, say, HP decreases.
Last edited by JonSetanta on Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by A Man In Black »

Since we're discussing Goblins, this is obligatory.

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Post by Sashi »

Far better:
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Re: Iron Heroes Was Always Bad

Post by Roy »

Koumei wrote:
Roy wrote:Not all the time, but often enough to be reminded that the enemy is intelligent as well.
Smarter than Mearls at the very least.
That's not saying much, given that the average spider (Int -) is smarter than him.
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Re: Iron Heroes Was Always Bad

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Roy wrote:
Koumei wrote:
Roy wrote:Not all the time, but often enough to be reminded that the enemy is intelligent as well.
Smarter than Mearls at the very least.
That's not saying much, given that the average spider (Int -) is smarter than him.
In that case, Roy, I suggest that you assemble a crack team of game-designing spiders and blow 4e out of the water.
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Re: Iron Heroes Was Always Bad

Post by ubernoob »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Roy wrote:
Koumei wrote:
Smarter than Mearls at the very least.
That's not saying much, given that the average spider (Int -) is smarter than him.
In that case, Roy, I suggest that you assemble a crack team of game-designing spiders and blow 4e out of the water.
Inded. You'd get to pay them in flies, so that should be pretty cheap.
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Re: Iron Heroes Was Always Bad

Post by Roy »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Roy wrote:
Koumei wrote:
Smarter than Mearls at the very least.
That's not saying much, given that the average spider (Int -) is smarter than him.
In that case, Roy, I suggest that you assemble a crack team of game-designing spiders and blow 4e out of the water.
A Drow game I'm watching is particularly amusing. I'll see about some behind the scenes manipulation. :mrgreen:
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Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
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Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by Koumei »

Let's give a warm welcome to the new lead designer!
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Belated comic contribution:

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Windjammer wrote: 1. Monster design. Look at the IH Bestiary. It's the Special gamey abilities aka "special effects on your battle mat grid" that drives the monster design and nothing else. None of the monsters is there to be rationalized against, or help rationalize, the implied setting of IH. Which is one of the big things Frank didn't mention in his OP - the implied setting of IH - because it's simply not there. And not for reasons of lack of space (aka Mearls going "sorry folks, ran out of pages to write on") but for the simple reason that setting does not matter in IH. Setting is the sum total of stage props that your IH characters need as they cut down legions of minions and smash them into buildings. You know, the only use special effects has for stage props is to blow them up.
I remember Mike Mearls specifically said that the reason he went with a Points of Light design was because he didn't care about the nuts and bolts of designing a new campaign setting. That was really disappointing and I'm actually really sorry to see (okay, not really, I want these jokers to fail) that they didn't learn their lesson at fucking all from 4E to 4.5E.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I remember Mike Mearls specifically said that the reason he went with a Points of Light design was because he didn't care about the nuts and bolts of designing a new campaign setting. That was really disappointing and I'm actually really sorry to see (okay, not really, I want these jokers to fail) that they didn't learn their lesson at fucking all from 4E to 4.5E.
Sadly, for every game that is criticized for not having any setting-specific material in the rulebooks, there's a game that's criticized for having shitty setting-specific material in the rulebooks (e.g. Arcana Evolved).

I generally prefer "plain" RPGs (e.g. D&D, Champions/HERO) over "flavored" RPGs (e.g. Stormbringer, Marvel Superheroes), myself.
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Post by Dominicius »

hogarth wrote:Sadly, for every game that is criticized for not having any setting-specific material in the rulebooks, there's a game that's criticized for having shitty setting-specific material in the rulebooks (e.g. Arcana Evolved).
Wasn't Arcana Evolved actually half decent?
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Post by virgil »

hogarth wrote:Sadly, for every game that is criticized for not having any setting-specific material in the rulebooks, there's a game that's criticized for having shitty setting-specific material in the rulebooks (e.g. Arcana Evolved).
There's a difference between abstaining from creating setting-specific material in the interest of broader acceptance and doing it out of intellectual sloth, as was admitted by Mearls.

The setting for AE isn't bad, but it is appreciably different from the norm, which is an appreciable turn-off for many. A non-inconsequential portion of gaming want to play yet another drunken Scottish dwarf or something, and are repulsed by the 'zaniness' of playing furries, pixies, and giants.
Last edited by virgil on Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

hogarth wrote: Sadly, for every game that is criticized for not having any setting-specific material in the rulebooks, there's a game that's criticized for having shitty setting-specific material in the rulebooks (e.g. Arcana Evolved).
Specific games always have a more loyal fanbase than general ones. This is why WH40K, Exalted, Earthdawn, Shadowrun, and Mutants and Masterminds: Freedom City are so entrenched. This is the only reason why Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms are going at all despite being mostly piles of shit. This is why people cared about Dark Sun despite it being an anachronistic relic from two editions ago.

D&D is already a pretty specific game anyway, even without a setting. People just don't realize it is because it's the memesetter for fantasy RPGs.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Dominicius wrote: Wasn't Arcana Evolved actually half decent?
ehhh... It has its moments. You could cherry pick the few good parts out and throw them in D&D, and nothing else would be missed. Oathsworn, for instance, would probably give the D&D Monk a kick in the ass.

Also, furries. Litorians, Sibbeccai, and Mojh we could do without.
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
hogarth wrote: Sadly, for every game that is criticized for not having any setting-specific material in the rulebooks, there's a game that's criticized for having shitty setting-specific material in the rulebooks (e.g. Arcana Evolved).
Specific games always have a more loyal fanbase than general ones. This is why WH40K, Exalted, Earthdawn, Shadowrun, and Mutants and Masterminds: Freedom City are so entrenched.
This statement is meaningless because (a) you can't measure "fan entrenchment" and (b) it's hopelessly tainted with survivorship bias; the RPG graveyard is full of dead games, both universal and setting-linked.
sigma999 wrote:Oathsworn, for instance, would probably give the D&D Monk a kick in the ass.
Oathsworn are terrible and you are a terrible person for thinking otherwise.
Last edited by hogarth on Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JonSetanta »

hogarth wrote:
sigma999 wrote:Oathsworn, for instance, would probably give the D&D Monk a kick in the ass.
Oathsworn are terrible and you are a terrible person for thinking otherwise.
They are eventually truly immortal. Eventually. That's one perk.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

hogarth wrote: This statement is meaningless because (a) you can't measure "fan entrenchment" and (b) it's hopelessly tainted with survivorship bias; the RPG graveyard is full of dead games, both universal and setting-linked.
You can't measure 'fan entrenchment' just by looking at a stat, no, you have to look at indirect measurements. Such as volume of fanfiction, adaptations to other media, and just the flat-out long-term demand.

For example, take D&D-derived video games. There's absolutely no reason why the Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights/Gold Box/Dark Sun/Temple of Elemental Evil/Krynn/etc. had to be based on a pre-existing setting. So why does no one ever go through the trouble of creating their own setting for these games? It's not like game designers are incapable of it--see Mass Effect and Dragon Age. It's just that a detailed setting with a history to it attracts more fans than a generic one. And while you could go 'sure, but some game designer could build up a setting from scratch rather than use the pre-existing ones', that still misses the point; people still prefer detailed settings.


Now I'm not saying that a detailed game won't fuck up or a generic game won't succeed. It's just that all things being equal, detailed settings do better. You can see that in friggin' D&D. No one gives a shit about Greyhawk or Ninter Vale or whatever the fuck they're calling it anymore. People would be upset if D&D announced that they're kicking Eberron and Forgotten Realms to the curb. This is beyond the fact that people would get pissed if they took out plussed weapons or magic missiles.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by A Man In Black »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:For example, take D&D-derived video games. There's absolutely no reason why the Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights/Gold Box/Dark Sun/Temple of Elemental Evil/Krynn/etc. had to be based on a pre-existing setting. So why does no one ever go through the trouble of creating their own setting for these games? It's not like game designers are incapable of it--see Mass Effect and Dragon Age. It's just that a detailed setting with a history to it attracts more fans than a generic one. And while you could go 'sure, but some game designer could build up a setting from scratch rather than use the pre-existing ones', that still misses the point; people still prefer detailed settings.
Or it could go the other way, that attaching the video game to a more-specific line of books buoys up sales of those books by investing a whole bunch of new players in the new setting.

After all, you have to make some sort of setting for the game. Why not sell a bunch of tie-on crap at the same time?
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Post by Midnight_v »

So... all we need is a tome based novel?
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