Spells at the Wrong Spell Levels

[fectin]

A doomsday scenario would have been something stupid like 40 cats, clustered, at first level. You expect to kill 30 (and do 210 damage, though as you said, you don't care), and they would otherwise be a problem, albeit a really dumb one. I don't think "a bunch of kobolds" is even a weird encounter at 2nd level.

Also, color spray is a cone; you have to be right next to things, which means they're already up in your stuff, it doesn't fill around corners, and you probably have to hose your friends down too.

Low level fireball wouldn't be crazytown, but it would be quite good at that point. 3d6 per level would be crazy, because that would auto-kill packs of anything you can reasonably encounter, and save-or-dies single monsters.

9th level spells probably look like permanent environmental changes. Like start a 'banefire' in one square that does no-save 20 damage and expands to all adjacent squares each round, forever. Or a giant wave of acid that dissolves out a sphere of nothing for a thousand feet in all directions. Or a cone of cold that freezes the air for damage and a no-save encasing. Maybe lightening just explicitly slags all your target's gear.

Edit:I mathed wrong before getting 2.4, that was probably confusing. 15/36 rolls are high enough to kill outright, 3/36 are too low to kill at all. Of the remainder, 40% save and live. 25.2/36=70%, *4 kobolds=2.8 expected kills.

[Zinegata]

I think the old Hackmaster had "atomic fireball", with a radius of 1 mile or something ridiculous....that might be a good level 9 evocation spell.

I vaguely recall this too. It was kinda awesome fluff-wise.

[Judging__Eagle]

Tap of the Abyss

Evocation 9 [Evil, Fire, Chaos, Acid, Cold, Electricity, Alcohol]

Range: Medium
Target: 1 Five foot square
Save: Reflex for 1/2 Damage
Damage: 10d6 Fiendbrew damage per caster level
Duration: Concentration + 1 Round

The spell caster Evokes a fiendish bar tap overtop of the target, then allows the terrible brew to pour down onto the target.

The tap resembles a grinning imp cast in bronze as the handle set into the forehead of tap, a bust of carved stone meant to look like a humanoid crying out in pain. The tap crackles in electricity, the hair is on fire, the stone eyes weep brilliant green acid, and the bottom of the floating tap is hanging with icicles.

When the handle is lowered fiendish energy courses through the brew that pours out, dealing Fire, Acid, Cold, Lighting damage, as well as damage that is Chaotic and Evil in nature.

This damage is known as "Fiendbrew", and ignores resistances and immunities due to it's mixed range of magically combined energies. The mixed nature of this damage means that it is impossible to resist any single part without being damaged more than an other component of this fiendish cocktail.

The Tap deals damage to the square being poured onto, the caster may shift the Fiendish Brewtap across the field, so long as it remains within range of the caster.

[JonSetanta]

Damage: 10d6 Fiendbrew damage per caster level

You know, this is slightly irking me, since over 2 years ago I made a Tome contribution for Evokers that upped spell damage and it got shot down quickly by various members here (in fact, I don't think anything I've written for Tome has been accepted. Ever.)
What's with this double standard then, do spellcasters need this much damage or not? Because I would love for my feat (or something similar) to become Tomeworthy, or at least get a reason why an extra +2 to +5 damage per caster level per spell (or per odd CL, as Calibron wrote) or so is broken.

[For Valor]

Not really at low levels, no. But at level 20, I would think so.

[Kaelik]

Damage: 10d6 Fiendbrew damage per caster level

You know, this is slightly irking me, since over 2 years ago I made a Tome contribution for Evokers that upped spell damage and it got shot down quickly by various members here (in fact, I don't think anything I've written for Tome has been accepted. Ever.)
What's with this double standard then, do spellcasters need this much damage or not? Because I would love for my feat (or something similar) to become Tomeworthy, or at least get a reason why an extra +2 to +5 damage per caster level per spell (or per odd CL, as Calibron wrote) or so is broken.

The answer is because JE is stupid and nothing he makes will ever be in the Tome, and Fiendbrew is an exceptionally terrible spell that is so bad I can't even bring myself to criticize the terrible parts of it, which is all of it.

[JonSetanta]

The answer is because JE is stupid and nothing he makes will ever be in the Tome, and Fiendbrew is an exceptionally terrible spell that is so bad I can't even bring myself to criticize the terrible parts of it, which is all of it.

Then what of what of...

• Murder some target so hard that the fact that you don't get a free Save or Die against 16 other targets is still considered a fair trade. Like, 300 damage or more on a save type shit.
  ....
• Have some sort of medium area tremendous damage compromise, where it's directly comparable to Wail of the Banshee by doing enough damage to make 17th level monsters care and still does damage on a made save.

... Which in my opinion seems like a kneejerk against SoDs in the wrong direction.
That much damage even on a save?
Comparing to Wail as a benchmark (as in, "You die. Now.", as a spell effect) is badwrongnofun.
I might entirely be a snarky joke, but I'm not laughing at this.

The answer is to nerf the fuck out of SoDs, and bring Evocation damage and effect up to a point where maybe, maybe, it takes out 1/3 to 1/2 half of an average "tanker build" target's HP, not wipe the fuck out of a small moon by level 17.

[Kaelik]

No, this is level 9 spells, so a single target 300 damage on a save is fine, because it kills one person most of the time, and who fucking cares, or it's an AOE damage effect that does "an amount that 17th level monsters care about" that is not 300 damage.

Increasing damage can be fine, but there is a delicate balance between what is just right, and what just makes your spell a save or die with a different immunity attached.

Or in the case of Fiendbrew, a stupid shitty just die, no save, with no immunity attached.

[Princess]

Control Winds — destroying cities and sinking fleets at level 9 (have to max CL, but it's simple), unless GM gets pissed and start placing bunch of CL 15 spellcasters at every location.
Regeneration is overpriced. There is almost no means to dismember someone (unless he is hydra or kraken) not mentioning DM being a dick, but this spell is like restoring someone from dead.
Almost all enchantment spells, especially high level ones — they're total weaksauce, worse than dominate. And they suck mindblanks and other immunities.
Necromancy spells sucks death ward also.

[Ice9]

Also, on a practical level, when you're rolling 200d6, the variance is so small as not to matter. Just have it do 35/level damage and make it usable for people without an electronic dice roller.

Now in that context, is it really that OTT? I mean, Harm does 10/level damage (save for half), and is three levels lower. Now this does have some significant advantages, but it's more on the order of "somewhat too powerful", rather than "OMGWTF".

[fbmf]

Flaming Sphere (this spell badly needs to be better than it is, but that's another subject)

Like how?

Game On,
fbmf

[Dominicius]

Any ideas on what these would look like?

Game On,
fbmf

Annihilation Aria

Evocation [Acid, Fire, Electricity, Sonic]
*Level: Sor/Wiz 9
*Components: V, S
*Casting Time: Full round action
*Range: 300 ft.
*Area: 40-ft.-radius spread
*Duration: Instantaneous
*Saving Throw: Reflex half
*Spell Resistance: Yes

You summon 4 Hellballs that appear in a circle around you. You do not take any extra damage or pay XP. At the beginning of your next turn you may fire them at any location within range.

-=-

This is what comes to mind when I think of high level evocation.

[For Valor]

maybe it'd work if you got rid of the energy types... honestly, PoID characters flat-out ignore half the damage dealt there AND they give Reflex + SR to resist.

Seems pretty weak.

[Lokathor]

Not much is immune to physical damage though, right? Couldn't a spell that needs to do oodles of damage just do like 100d6 Bludgeon damage and call it a day? (or whatever number)

[Josh_Kablack]

Some of the rough notes I have left over for high level evocations from my old Epic Game. They're all woefully incomplete, but largely more interesting than just higher damage numbers.

Magma Kraken: Colossal lava tentacles grapple with and burn your foes
Bigby’s Devestating Combinations: Pair of large hands provide cover, push, grapple and/or attack your foes.
Chandra’s Force Volley: You project rays of force at your opponents. 1 ray per level, 1d6 per ray. Touch attack to hit. No save. Rays may be directed at the same or multiple target. If directed at the same target, counts as one single attack for overcoming Hardness or other applicable resistances.
Inferno: As Firestorm, but affects larger area and lasts 1 round/level
Ball Lightning: lighting effect moves 120 ft/round as you direct it, deals 20d6 electricity to those in its path and absorbs other nearby electrical attacks.
Master of Meteors: You call forth a Meteor Swarm as a free action up to once per round for 1 round / caster level.
Mordenkainen’s Phantom Army: one mordenkainen’s sword/level, reassign each as free action.
Prismatic Storm: Encloses radius of up to 40’ within Prismatic Walls, all within suffer the effects of Prismatic Ray once per round for 1 round/caster level
Ragnarok Blade: Conjures a 2h blade of distintegration. Has a reach of your close range. 1 round/level. Wielded as a sword, can strike ethereal and incorporeal creatures with no miss chance.. Strikes against touch AC. any creature or object stricken must make Fort save or be distintegrated, any creature or object who makes save still takes 1d6 damage per caster level (max 50d6) if this is enough damage to reduce target to 0 hp, target is still disintegrated. Touch of the blade automatically dispels any force effect Alternately, can as a full round action RipPortal into or out of the astral or ethereal planes.
Terra Slayer Deals 1d100 of “divine power” damage per caster level. Blinds, Confuses, Dazzles, Deafens, Exhausts, Knocks Down, Nauseates, Panicks, Petrifies and Stuns opponents. Bonus to get through SR. Separate save for each status ailment.

[For Valor]

I like Phantom Army, and Master of Meteors is OK.

Terra Slayer, I believe we can all agree, would be a bitch.

[JonSetanta]

Not much is immune to physical damage though, right? Couldn't a spell that needs to do oodles of damage just do like 100d6 Bludgeon damage and call it a day? (or whatever number)

Damage Reduction, although it doesn't go that high, and at that point I'd cap it at 10d6 to 20d6 and add about +90 on top of that.

[Josh_Kablack]

Terra Slayer, I believe we can all agree, would be a bitch.

While the potential of up to 10 (or 11) saves per target would be impractically game slowing - it probably wouldn't be quite as bad as one might think if you consider the likely immunities on high-level opponents and then resolve the saves in inverse severity order.
Is a target dead from damage ? If so, do not resolve further effects
Is a target petrified? If so, do not resolve further effects
Is a target nauseated or panicked? if so, do not resolve further effects - it's out the combat and fleeing
After that, you're hoping for Confusion, but you would still have to roll the rest out.

And Phantom Army is probably worse, as it involves not merely a dozen saves upon casting, but as a 9th level spell, at least 17 attack rolls per round of its duration. I like how the damage-over-time averages work out, but not the effort needed to resolve them in tabletop.

[Username17]

Flaming Sphere (this spell badly needs to be better than it is, but that's another subject)

Like how?

Game On,
fbmf

Flaming Sphere does an appreciable amount of damage - 2d6/caster level in a way. Which is fine, because it takes an asslong time to do it and there are saves and movement rates and shit. But it uses up all your actions to do what is acually fairly shitty round-by-round damage. If it was fire-and-forget, or even just a Swift Action to move, it would be fine.

If it actually uses an action, it has o be as good as taking and action every round.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

I was thinking about important (benign) spells such as Regenerate lately and decided that it should go in the spell level 5 spot, since Cure Critical Wounds becomes obsolete about then, yet Heal is not online yet.

The ability to remove Fatigue and nonlethal is OK I suppose, great for Barbarians, but the ability to restore limbs is essential and should be sooner.
There might even be space for a spell that doesn't remove nonlethal and Fatigue, just seal limbs back on and restore parts, around SL3 or so.

[Meikle641]

Not much is immune to physical damage though, right? Couldn't a spell that needs to do oodles of damage just do like 100d6 Bludgeon damage and call it a day? (or whatever number)

"Rocks fall, everybody dies."

[Endovior]

Refuge. A 9th level spell that literally no commoner in the world would give a copper penny to know. If you gave a 1st level commoner access to at will magic missile he could rule the countryside, if he had access to at will Refuge he could.... go fuck himself

What, seriously?

You must be joking.

Normally, Refuge is a mediocre spell because of it's level/GP cost (it shouldn't be a 9th level spell for Sor/Wiz, for example; it's not nearly as bad for Clerics, who get it at 7), but having it at will (or otherwise being able to disregard said cost) actually makes it a awesome spell. Said commoner should immediately invest in an inn, and hand out Business Cards of Refuge with each stay. He'd easily have more business then he could handle, from powerful adventurer-types across the lands. Yes, even if his inn is in the middle of nowhere, overlooking a swamp full of wights or something.

"Staying here lets me safely teleport out of harm's way into town later? I'm all over that!"

Done right, it's basically a spell that makes scrolls of town portal, except that the town is picked in advance. 1500 Gp is, admittedly, kinda pricy for a scroll of teleport, but it's a spell component cost, and there are ways of getting around that.

[Username17]

The basic reality is that pulling numbers out of your ass just doesn't work that well for evocations. If your evocation doesn't do very much damage relative to the enemies you are firing it at, it's underpowered and is not worth casting. If your evocations do so much damage that you cut an enemy in half whether they make their save or not, they are actually overpowered. A SoD that kills even on a save is unfair.

So here's the deal: when you're 17th level and above, the enemies that show up in large groups are shit like Triceratops Topiary Gardens (210 Hit Points, CR 13), Ultraloth (176 hit points, lots of resistances, CR 13), or Charnel Hounds (220 hit points, CR 13). The enemies that show up in hordes are Cloud Giants (178 Hit Points, CR 11), Dragon Eels (161 hit points, CR 11), and Hamatulas (126 hit points, lots of resistances).

You're 17th level. 10 points a level is 170 hit points. Mass Harm is seriously underpowered, because it won't drop level appropriate group enemies even on a failed save. Many horde opponents can take it in the face and still fight. It's seriously a weak spell. But 500 damage in an area (save for half) would be overpowered, because group enemies would die even on a failed save and it would just be "automatically win encounter" - even time stop requires you to cast cloud kill, dimensional lock and force cage to automatically win the encounter. A 9th level spell that made you automatically win against larger groups of enemies without casting more spells would be overpowered.

So yes, 10 points a level to multiple opponents is too weak, but 30 points a level to multiple opponents is too strong, even at 17th level.

-Username17

[Dominicius]

So 20 hit points per level is just right?

[Darth Rabbitt]

So 20 hit points per level is just right?

Beat me to it.