Comprehensive Tome Errata

[Kaelik]

It makes Wands/Scrolls/Staves much worse at higher levels, because they have to compete with +1/3rd level to three things and a major ability.

You misunderstood, +1/3rd level to three things and no major ability (and +1/3rd level to 2 things and no moderate ability).

EVEN MORE STUPID!

So you add every single problem above, but you also make all items generic, interchangeable, uninteresting, and solely numbers based, so even though major items are still better than other items, they are only better in an uninteresting way where it doesn't even matter which ones you have as long as in total you have bonuses to more things.

Please stop posting in this thread, you are hurting my brain with your intense desire to ruin the game. Go ruin your own game, stop posting about it here.

[VladtheLad]

So you add every single problem above, but you also make all items generic.

You misunderstood again, I am not saying this should apply to all items.

Also, no you don't, in all those problems you mentioned, you assumed I said something I didn't.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I don't think that stacking multiple bonuses on single item slots breaks the game. As long as the core principle that a very limited number of bonuses are adding to any one number is in place, you should be basically okay. Indeed, anyone who trades out real abilities like Blink for some extra +s is probably shorting themselves badly.

But it's still bad for the game, because the whole point was that you should not be allowed to trade out interesting powers for necessary scaling numbers. That's what the RAW produces, and it's crap.

[Kaelik]

You misunderstood again, I am not saying this should apply to all items.

Also, no you don't, in all those problems you mentioned, you assumed I said something I didn't.

Once again, all of those things remain true.

They are all still true, with or without major abilities. They are inherently true if you have any items providing a bonus to more than one thing.

[VladtheLad]

I don't think that stacking multiple bonuses on single item slots breaks the game.
But it's still bad for the game,

I get that, I actually liked the idea from a fluff point of view. Ah well...

[Bihlbo]

I don't think that stacking multiple bonuses on single item slots breaks the game.
But it's still bad for the game,

I get that, I actually liked the idea from a fluff point of view. Ah well...

Knowing that it's bad for the game doesn't prevent you from using the idea and making it work. For instance, if you wanted the occasional item to seem like it's awesome but have all the drawbacks that have been mentioned, then this is the way to do it (basically it's a trap item that isn't cursed). But knowing that it's bad for the game overall, ideally it should be a rare exception, not a wholesale change to the way you handle magic items.

[TarkisFlux]

Kaelik, in your linked example you pull out a linked + lifestealing + dispelling qualities, but I don't see any sort of "this many X level qualities make 1 Y level quality item" floating around. Did I miss that, or can you throw one up with some justifications?

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, in your linked example you pull out a linked + lifestealing + dispelling qualities, but I don't see any sort of "this many X level qualities make 1 Y level quality item" floating around. Did I miss that, or can you throw one up with some justifications?

I don't think it exists, and I don't think that the listed example is actually valid, and I'm glad, because one should really be the limit.

However, note that I did put: "A Linked Weapon with an additional Minor Ability is a Moderate weapon." in a special note attached to the ability.

I think I will expand that to say that a Linked Moderate is a Major, and that I officially come down on the side of "Every single hit."

So that way a Lifestealing Linked armor set is major, and I think I can allow 10-12 saves against negative levels to be the equivalent of 4-5 saves against dying.

[Archmage]

In Tome, Power Attack is simply an attack option usable by anyone, not a feat.

Is Power Attack usable with ranged weapons, or just melee attacks? It isn't specified anywhere, though by default the PA feat is melee-only in core.

[ubernoob]

In Tome, Power Attack is simply an attack option usable by anyone, not a feat.

Is Power Attack usable with ranged weapons, or just melee attacks? It isn't specified anywhere, though by default the PA feat is melee-only in core.

In the tomes, you can totally use it with ranged weapons. In 3e you could get "ranged power attack" via a PrC and in 3.5 there was a feat to PA with thrown weapons. So yeah, PA being used for ranged weapons is not new.

[Midnight_v]

When using the tome, how much of it do you mix with the srd or dmg or whatever? Are the games you run simple "Tome-only" or "Tome replacing everything it covers, everything else is included" I have a player who wants to take improved grapple or some such nonsense for example. Is there a tome replacement or is that supposed to be covered by the edge or something else?

[Maxus]

Juggernaut gives you a +4 bonus to thing potentially modified by your size. Which includes grapples and most other combat maneuvers...

[Kaelik]

When using the tome, how much of it do you mix with the srd or dmg or whatever? Are the games you run simple "Tome-only" or "Tome replacing everything it covers, everything else is included" I have a player who wants to take improved grapple or some such nonsense for example. Is there a tome replacement or is that supposed to be covered by the edge or something else?

I mostly allow whatever, but spend a lot of time looking over characters to make sure I approve. But I offer to make non shitty versions of whatever WotC shit catches their fancy.

If someone shows up with some pile of trash WotC character though, I mostly punch them in the face for wasting my time, because there is no goddam reason for that shit, unless they are a Cleric/Beguiler/Wizard/Druid/Dread Necro with non shitty feats.

If someone said they wanted Improved Grapple, I'd point them to edge obtaining feats, Juggernaught, and Giant Slayer, depending on what type of grappler they wanted. Then I'd tell them to not waste a feat on shit like numeric bonuses and "you must be this tall to play the game" feats.

[Koumei]

Come to think of it, requirements.

There are a few very rare non-shit feats/PrCls in the WotC books. Maybe by accident. But they can have bizarre requirements that are Tome-incompatible. Do you just go for closest match? ie

Improved Unarmed Strike: any fucking natural weapon, srsly
Improved Grapple: Juggernaut or Giant Killer
Power Attack: Blitz (or "everyone automatically has it, so nya")
Endurance: Great Fortitude
Combat Casting: punch the book

[CatharzGodfoot]

Weapon Focus is another common one with a clear replacement.

[Echoes]

Come to think of it, requirements.

There are a few very rare non-shit feats/PrCls in the WotC books. Maybe by accident. But they can have bizarre requirements that are Tome-incompatible. Do you just go for closest match? ie

Improved Unarmed Strike: any fucking natural weapon, srsly
Improved Grapple: Juggernaut or Giant Killer
Power Attack: Blitz (or "everyone automatically has it, so nya")
Endurance: Great Fortitude
Combat Casting: punch the book

I'm pretty sure the Tomes actually state that everyone auto-qualifies for shit that requires Power Attack, and Combat Expertise assuming they meet the other prereqs. The others seem reasonable (but I'm not Kaelik).

[CatharzGodfoot]

The others seem reasonable (but I'm not Kaelik).

Don't worry, Kaelik isn't reasonable either.

[Kaelik]

The others seem reasonable (but I'm not Kaelik).

Don't worry, Kaelik isn't reasonable either.

Curse you, I was going to say that!

[fbmf]

Weapon Focus is another common one with a clear replacement.

I always use Combat School for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization prereqs. What do you use?

Game On,
fbmf

[CatharzGodfoot]

Weapon Focus is another common one with a clear replacement.

I always use Combat School for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization prereqs. What do you use?

Game On,
fbmf

Yep, that's the one. The nice thing about the combat feats (for prerequisites & replacements) is that so many of them subsume the effects of existing feats. Whirlwind includes Whirlwind Attack and Spring Attack, Elusive Target includes Dodge, Expert Tactician includes Improved Feint, Horde Breaker includes Combat Reflexes and Cleave, and so forth.

[Koumei]

So we generally agree "These cover the Equivalency/Virtual Feat clause"? Cool.

[CatharzGodfoot]

So we generally agree "These cover the Equivalency/Virtual Feat clause"? Cool.

If a feat includes 100% of another feat, it should count as that feat as far as prerequisites are concerned. The real difficulty is going the other way. If a 3e class grants Dodge, should you give Elusive Target in its place? Probably yes, but it takes some judgement.

[Midnight_v]

So we generally agree "These cover the Equivalency/Virtual Feat clause"? Cool.

If a feat includes 100% of another feat, it should count as that feat as far as prerequisites are concerned. The real difficulty is going the other way. If a 3e class grants Dodge, should you give Elusive Target in its place? Probably yes, but it takes some judgemet.

Well my friend says its hard as hell to trip people w/out improved trip. I found that I wanted to use karmic stike, at low levels as opposed to hordebreaker/robilars gambit or whatever. There are jsut a few, overall things work perfectly.
Has anyone tried the full bab fiendish brute aside from Kaelik?

[For Valor]

Yes, I have. Is totally fine.

[Kaelik]

So we generally agree "These cover the Equivalency/Virtual Feat clause"? Cool.

If a feat includes 100% of another feat, it should count as that feat as far as prerequisites are concerned. The real difficulty is going the other way. If a 3e class grants Dodge, should you give Elusive Target in its place? Probably yes, but it takes some judgemet.

Well my friend says its hard as hell to trip people w/out improved trip. I found that I wanted to use karmic stike, at low levels as opposed to hordebreaker/robilars gambit or whatever. There are jsut a few, overall things work perfectly.
Has anyone tried the full bab fiendish brute aside from Kaelik?

Well your friends is dumb. What is true in 3.5 is not neccissarily true in Tome.

There is a feat that removes Size bonuses to trip checks for both parties.

If you take that feat, and maximize your Str and BAB, you are rolling 1d20+Str+BAB vs 10+str+BAB. So if you are fighting anything that is not a dragon, you succeed at tripping at least half the time. And you can do that from Gnome size.

Alternatively, you can be a Fiendish Brute and trip anything. Alternatively you can take the Fiend feats that increase your size while being a Fighter and usually trip anything huge or smaller.

I mean really, if you are trying to trip something that is even one size category larger than you, Giant slayer is equal or better than Improved Trip. Most things of sizes you can easily reach don't have as high Str, and so are already trippable. And in Tome, you can have the size modifier of a Gargantuan creature and +8 (+16 if playing without my errata) bonus to Str in addition to enhancement/Race/inherent/ect.