Spells at the Wrong Spell Levels

[Kaelik]

Wizards have 4 spells of level 5 at Character level 9. If it takes three of them if they fail three saves, aka, they don't, to turn someone into stone, then no one will ever be turned into stone, and the entire point of baleful polymorph and flesh to stone is 100% gone forever.

[Koumei]

Yeah, it's all very well and good to want combat to last ~3 turns, but basically if you feel you have to gut the good spells for that... might I suggest designing your own entire game system from the floor up?

[Username17]

Why are optimized enemies No True Scotsman while optimized PCs totally okay?

Because when you play a 17th level Wizard, that is your sixty fifth adventuring day. You could seriously have been playing that one character for a year and a half. It is totally inconceivable that you haven't by this point spent some amount of time figuring out how to get better at whatever it is that you do, and then done it. Maybe you touched a planar touchstone, or drank from a special fountain, or got a special magic item. Maybe you did it the oldfashioned way by spending feats or taking a prestige class. But you did something because you've been thinking about and playing this one character for months of real time and if you hadn't spent some amount of thought pumping him up you would have stopped by now.

On the flip side, when the DM pulls out a Vermin Lord, that is one monster in one speed bump encounter in one evening. Not only is the monster a one-off, he's not the only one-off monster used that evening or even that scene.

How much fucking time do you think the DM has where he can spend as much time tweaking a single throwaway beasty, who I remind you isn't even supposed to win, as a player does on a beloved named character who has been adventuring and achieving goals and gathering swag for two actual school years worth of game nights?

Player characters get optimized and tweaked and take prestige classes and get DM pity items when they underperform. Monsters come out of the fucking manual.

-Username17

[cthulhu]

Why are optimized enemies No True Scotsman while optimized PCs totally okay?

The biggest single reason people don't want to DM is prep time. If it doesn't come out of the book, chances are no-one is going to use it.

To use a tangible example, friend of mine from work doesn't make up monsters ever anymore because it's to hard, he just picks something with vaguely the right numbers and CR and reskins it with description on the fly.

[RobbyPants]

Any ideas on what these would look like?

Game On,
fbmf

<snip>

That's sort of what I was thinking too. I figured two gimmes would be:

1) Huge area blast spell

2) Some type of awesome force spell, like a force cage that would shrink and gradually crush the opponent, or something.

I like that Lavawall spell.

[mean_liar]

How much fucking time do you think the DM has where he can spend as much time tweaking a single throwaway beasty, who I remind you isn't even supposed to win, as a player does on a beloved named character who has been adventuring and achieving goals and gathering swag for two actual school years worth of game nights?

Player characters get optimized and tweaked and take prestige classes and get DM pity items when they underperform. Monsters come out of the fucking manual.

...at your table.

At mine, I'm conversant enough with the swag bag of low-cost magic items and worthwhile common feats that it doesn't take much. My monsters have non-standard feat choices, gear, and stats, and typically a few levels of some character class or another. It takes about an hour for me to prepare five hours of game, though I usually do the prepping in two- and three-hour chunks.

Wail of the Banshee is decent for what it does (blow through minions), but I wouldn't hold it up as the standard bearer of greatness.

You can do so. I promise not to call your game BadWrongFun.

[JonSetanta]

Since you know what the non-retarded solution is, you should just do that instead of doing something retarded.

A bit indirect. Are you implying the cross-class-synergizing debuffs are retarded or not?

Wizards have 4 spells of level 5 at Character level 9. If it takes three of them if they fail three saves, aka, they don't, to turn someone into stone, then no one will ever be turned into stone, and the entire point of baleful polymorph and flesh to stone is 100% gone forever.

That model expects Wizards (and similar full casters) to use SoDs to one-shot enemies.
If the expected output is 3 times more spells to take down a foe, since it will take multiple castings to do so, the frequency of spellcasting would need to increase by threefold or more.

Yeah, it's all very well and good to want combat to last ~3 turns, but basically if you feel you have to gut the good spells for that... might I suggest designing your own entire game system from the floor up?

And what is Tome?
Using SoDs as a design objective for everyone to meet is a mistake.

[Kaelik]

Using SoDs as a design objective for everyone to meet is a mistake.

Why? Redesigning 5 classes seems a lot easier than redesigning every class and every monster and every spell.

[JonSetanta]

Layered Spell Effects

Example:
Spell name
First Effect: Occurs when a target fails their save or is hit. Making a save to end an effect is a non-action on the target's turn.
Second Effect: Occurs if the first effect or one of the first effects is in place, and the target is affected again. The second effect replaces the first effect(s).



Spell Level 0
Daze
First Effect: Dazzled. Target gets -1 per odd caster level to attack rolls for 1 round per level (new Will save each round)
Second Effect: Dazed. 1 round per level (new Will save each round)

Spell Level 1
Charm Person
First Effect: Charmed. Target's reaction towards caster improves by one stage.
Second Effect: as normal

Color Spray
First Effect: Blinded and Stunned for 1 round per level (new Will save each round for each)
Second Effect: Unconscious for 1 round per level (new Will save each round)

Sleep
First Effect: Staggered. Only a move or standard action allowed for 1 round per level (new Will save each round)
Second Effect: Unconscious for 1 round per level (new Will save each round)

Spell Level 2
Blindness/Deafness
Allow new Fortitude save each minute.

Daze Monster
see Daze

Ghoul Touch
First Effect: Stunned for 1 round per level with a new Will save each round.
Second Effect: as normal but with a new Fortitude save each round.

Hideous Laughter
First Effect: Checked for 1 round per level (new Will save each round).
Second Effect: as normal but with a new Will save each round.

Hold Person
First Effect: Pinned (no move actions) for 1 round per level (new Will save each round).
Second Effect: as normal

[Kaelik]

Hey dumbass, read the thread title.

It's called "Spells at the wrong levels." Not "Sigma makes spells suck for no goddam reason because he's a shithead."

Go post your trash somewhere else. Like the thread where you give everyone too many spells at the cost of a feat.

[fbmf]

Are the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells at the right level? If not, how should they be changed?

Game On,
fbmf

[hogarth]

Are the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells at the right level? If not, how should they be changed?

At low levels, there's usually a few decent choices (e.g. dire wolf, bison) and a bunch of terrible choices. At high levels, summoned creatures are speedbumps at best.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Are the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells at the right level? If not, how should they be changed?

Game On,
fbmf

They just need longer or fixed durations.

[Username17]

Are the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells at the right level? If not, how should they be changed?

Game On,
fbmf

The Summon Monster/Nature's Ally line of spells is weird. Some of the stuff on the list is very good and totally worth a spell slot. From the Nature's Ally line the Hippogriff and Unicorn are real standouts, for example. Most of the stuff on the list is crap, but since you don't have to summon a celestial hawk at any point in your career, and can instead summon "Wall of Fiendish Centipede" when needed - the spell as a whole is generally worthwhile.

It has two main problems: First, the long casting time is annoying. The spells aren't actually good enough to justify that. The second is that the duration is short enough that you can't do anything with it other than fight a battle, trigger a trap, or abuse a spell like ability or movement type. If you want to feel like a conjurer, you probably need to use the Planar Binding spells - and those are broken.

So it's frustrating. They don't really work how people think they should. And at low caster level they are pretty much worthless. But both lines of spells can be used effectively.

-Username17

[Princess]

The second is that the duration is short enough that

And if you will ever make duration like hour per CL it may result in swarms of summoned creatures who are total pain in the ass even if they all same ans act on same initiative.

[BearsAreBrown]

Even minutes/CL would be a great change. And/or scale duration to spell level like it already does with the quantity of summons.

[fbmf]

Are the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells at the right level? If not, how should they be changed?

Game On,
fbmf

The Summon Monster/Nature's Ally line of spells is weird. Some of the stuff on the list is very good and totally worth a spell slot. From the Nature's Ally line the Hippogriff and Unicorn are real standouts, for example. Most of the stuff on the list is crap, but since you don't have to summon a celestial hawk at any point in your career, and can instead summon "Wall of Fiendish Centipede" when needed - the spell as a whole is generally worthwhile.

It has two main problems: First, the long casting time is annoying. The spells aren't actually good enough to justify that. The second is that the duration is short enough that you can't do anything with it other than fight a battle, trigger a trap, or abuse a spell like ability or movement type. If you want to feel like a conjurer, you probably need to use the Planar Binding spells - and those are broken.

So it's frustrating. They don't really work how people think they should. And at low caster level they are pretty much worthless. But both lines of spells can be used effectively.

-Username17

How would one go about fixing them so that they are worthwhile? Is it a matter of summoning creatures of a certain CR at each level?

Game On,
fbmf

[hogarth]

Are the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells at the right level? If not, how should they be changed?

Game On,
fbmf

They just need longer or fixed durations.

I would also add some kind of ceiling on the number of creatures you can summon at once, either in the spell description or at the very least as a "gentleman's agreement".

[RobbyPants]

So why do summons have a casting time of an entire round? Is it because the monster gets a full round when it is summoned? It seems like at a minimum, the spell would be more useful if it took a standard action, and the monster only got a standard action when it was summoned.

Would it be too much to have the spell take a standard action and to still give the monster a full round?

[fectin]

MAybe you could draw from a lower list for longer? All the summon spells let you get more stuff by going to a less cool list, so it's a reasonable mechanic already.

As a first approximation, drop down one lower for minutes/level and two lower for hours/level. Combine that with the rules for more as normal (drop one list for 1d3, drop 2 for 1d4+1)
You can get large numbers of critters for a long duration (well, several creatures anyway), but they're all so far below level-appropriate that you really don't care.

[fbmf]

I can sort of see making them liking getting a (very temporary) cohort, but then there doesn't need to be a series of them, just one 2nd or 3rd level spell that says: Subject to certain restrictions (which someone better at me at writing rules would have to write), an outsider (if SM) or animal (if SNA) of a CR at least 2 less than your own appears and serves you for (appropriate duration).

As I said, someone way better at rules lawyering than I would have to write the specifics, but this would eliminate the need for lists. If "outsiders" is too far out in Crazyland, what about one list that you choose off of for SM and another for SNA, again subject to the (CR-2) restriction?

Thoughts?

Game On,
fbmf

[hogarth]

I can sort of see making them liking getting a (very temporary) cohort, but then there doesn't need to be a series of them, just one 2nd or 3rd level spell that says: Subject to certain restrictions (which someone better at me at writing rules would have to write), an outsider (if SM) or animal (if SNA) of a CR at least 2 less than your own appears and serves you for (appropriate duration).

Cherry-picking any monster you want out of the monster manuals is part of why Planar Binding (et al.) is broken.

The psionic (Astral Construct) approach of saying "you can summon a generic creature and you get to pick some special abilities from Menu A, B, and C" has some merit.

[Roy]

Make casting time a Standard action.

Make duration 1 round/level + 3. So it actually works at low levels, without having an army of minions. Particularly when using that ability that gives you a Summon Monster at will, once per 5 rounds.

There's a reason why that Conjurer variant is mandatory after all.

[RobbyPants]

So, related to SM/SNA and other low level spells: would it hurt anything to make the minimum duration of a round-per-level spell be 5 rounds? In addition to the summons at 1st level, there are a lot of spells (like Grease) that just seem unusable with a caster level of 1.

Do you see that breaking anything?

[fbmf]

The psionic (Astral Construct) approach of saying "you can summon a generic creature and you get to pick some special abilities from Menu A, B, and C" has some merit.

I do not have a Psionic's Handbook, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

What about summoning a level appropriate (Caster's CR-2) True Fiend and selecting its abilities. The only problem I see with that is that you have to stop and make a character every time you cast the spell.

Is there a way around that?

Would this work at all?

Game On,
fbmf