A complaint about aWoD that I heard

Don Strudel · Post by **Don Strudel** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:51 pm

On another forum, I heard this "complaint" about aWoD (paraphrased):

While an entertaining read, its goal is laughable: it wants a smaller population, but ends up implementing "world-spanning ninja clans." It's too ironic to take seriously.

What are your thoughts on this?

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:36 pm

I think that it misunderstands the goal of hasing down the available groups. It is not that there should be less supernatural monsters overall, but rather that there should be less competeing factions of supernatural beings and, as a result, more supernaturals per faction and more supernaturals per faction per locale. And that is a goal that is consistant with world-spanning ninja clans (assuming they're talking about the two assassinesqe cults there are)

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:04 pm

Yeah, Grek got it in one. The goal was to pare down the use of conceptual space so that there were less things to keep track of. Not necessarily that there would be less werewolves, but that there would be less types of werewolves. So there are "Werewolves" and not... 13 basic tribes of werewolves, 3 "mostly dead" tribes of werewolves, one "evil" tribe of werewolf, one "type" of werewolf that is not really a tribe, and two varieties of tribeless werewolves.

So yeah, world spanning ninja clans is part of the goal. Instead of having one ninja clan for every major populated region with their own writeup leading to dozens of ninja clans, you just have a couple and they could plausibly show up anywhere.

It's more global because it's more manageable.

-Username17

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:54 pm

I take the view "The less worldwide conspiracies which have been independently controlling human history from behind the scenes while somehow remaining ignorant of all other world-controlling conspiracies, the better"

aWoD appeals to me because it could actually work in the real world. The supernaturals don't have any world-controlling conspiracies, they try to lay low and basically keep to themselves. They try not to do anything obvious, and it's a point to further their goals without being obvious to the human population.

And that's a workable game, and more relateable to me than "Rasputin was one of us! So was Catherine the Great and Archduke Ferdinand!"

You could run an aWoD chronicle just about shutting down supernaturals who try to establish a world-running conspiracy.

Don Strudel · Post by **Don Strudel** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:23 pm

I'm actually more concerned about the "global conspiracy" part. I just don't like the concept, because 1) it implies that humans could never accomplish anything without the help of vampires/aliens/whatever, and 2) it implies that vampires are automatically going to form global conspiracies, despite the fact that humans cannot do this and that vampires have no reason to do so because they are solitary predators who view each other as competitors and enemies, who engage in politics precisely to keep themselves from just killing each other.

Even Nephilim, the premier supernatural conspiracy RPG, stated outright that its factions were only loosely organized, much less global conspiracies. It made a whole lot more sense than World of Darkness ever did.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:34 pm

Don Strudel wrote:I'm actually more concerned about the "global conspiracy" part.

That's the one thing I really liked about oWoD; have all the conspiracies you want; you know they are probably wrong anyway. All those global conspiracies are just bullshit bragging rights. But everyone's got their bullshit bragging rights, and everyone argues past each other just like they do in the real world.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:25 pm

The main complaint I heard about aWoD is "It's not WoD". That the setting itself has been changed to the point that it's more a monster-mash game set in real world to be either a sit-com or modern dungeon crawl.

*shrug* Can't actually comment on the accuracy of that. It's just the worst complaint I've heard.

Don Strudel · Post by **Don Strudel** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:38 pm

tzor wrote:That's the one thing I really liked about oWoD; have all the conspiracies you want; you know they are probably wrong anyway. All those global conspiracies are just bullshit bragging rights. But everyone's got their bullshit bragging rights, and everyone argues past each other just like they do in the real world.

So what you're saying is: these conspiracies claim to be global but are actually not? That they're really just a bunch of fragmented, independent fiefdoms that are aligned in only the loosest possible sense; in fact, that they are no more aligned with one another than the fiefdoms in nWoD?

You know, I don't think a lot of people would agree with your interpretation. Frank places a ton of value on being famous, and that all a vampire's accomplishments are pointless unless they are an international celebrity in the vampire underground, and you're just turning that on its head?

Am I following you right?

souran · Post by **souran** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:40 pm

Maxus wrote: And that's a workable game, and more relateable to me than "Rasputin was one of us! So was Catherine the Great and Archduke Ferdinand!"

Um if Rasputin was NOT one of your games supernaturals I don't want to play it.

That dude was flat out creepy. Infact, Rasputin as vampire + Otto Scornzy as "Evil Monster Sidekick" would make a pretty nasty villian combination for whom "take over ZE VORLD!" would seem to not be an unattaninable goal.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:34 pm

In oWoD (and probably nWoD), Rasputin was EVERY supernatural. So was Jesus. And so on and so forth.

Anyone you have ever read about in history books or newspapers is at least one supernatural, with the major ones having every type lay claim to them.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:16 am

Grabowski and I once had a length mock-argument over whether agents of the Technocracy, the Tremere or the Black Spiral Dancers were successful in their quest to bump Charles Goodyear, thereby causing him to spill uncured rubber on his stove and discovering vulcanization of rubber. This was in jest, but it is indistinguishable from actual WoD canon arguments.

Don Strudel · Post by **Don Strudel** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:16 am

Koumei wrote:In oWoD (and probably nWoD), Rasputin was EVERY supernatural. So was Jesus. And so on and so forth.

Anyone you have ever read about in history books or newspapers is at least one supernatural, with the major ones having every type lay claim to them.

That's incredibly insulting towards normal humans, because it implies that they can never accomplish anything on their own. If the only events in history that were the result of normal human activities were World War II and 9/11, then there is a major problem with these games. That's even more insulting towards normal humans, if that's even possible.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:26 am

Don Strudel wrote:
Koumei wrote:In oWoD (and probably nWoD), Rasputin was EVERY supernatural. So was Jesus. And so on and so forth.

Anyone you have ever read about in history books or newspapers is at least one supernatural, with the major ones having every type lay claim to them.
That's incredibly insulting towards normal humans, because it implies that they can never accomplish anything on their own. If the only events in history that were the result of normal human activities were World War II and 9/11, then there is a major problem with these games. That's even more insulting towards normal humans, if that's even possible.

True, but oWoD pretty much centers around being incredibly insulting towards humans. If you can't slather on your makeup and then look down your nose at the normals, what's the point?

Also, I'm guessing Hitler was some kind of ghoul or supernatural, Churchill was a werewolf, Tojo was some kind of mildly racist caricature of a Japanese monster, Stalin was a werebear, and Osama Bin Laden was the leader of a magical death cult. Nobody gives a fuck about Mussolini.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:51 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Nobody gives a fuck about Mussolini.

True, however Mussolini was an Italian. I'm pretty sure that's a type of monster.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:16 am

Koumei wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:Nobody gives a fuck about Mussolini.
True, however Mussolini was an Italian. I'm pretty sure that's a type of monster.

Me and a friend of mine (we are both part Italian, which is probably why we ended up choosing Italians) actually came up with a whole writeup of that a while ago.

But I don't remember most of it, and don't have a copy of it.

The only thing I remember is that we claimed they were hermaphroditic creatures, who reproduced similarly to the Illithids.

And that their true form looked like this.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:24 am

I kinda like the Dresden Files take on supernaturals:

Sure, individually they're weak and can be looked upon as prey. As a group, they are something no one wants to get riled up because they'd win. Just through numbers, if nothing else.

And a lot of these centuries-old creatures probably don't understand how far along humanity has come, with weaponry and communications and the ability to pass along information.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:31 am

Maxus wrote:And a lot of these centuries-old creatures probably don't understand how far along humanity has come, with weaponry and communications and the ability to pass along information.

The problem with that is that if the supernaturals have even a chance at dominating humans locally now, they must have been absolutely dominant in times past (IMO). Which leads directly to the 'every important historical figure being a puppet or supernatural being' problem.

Either you just ignore history (easy solution for a lot of games), or there was something restraining the supernaturals which is unknown or less common now, or you accept that premise.

Edit: or, of course, the supernaturals are prey, as in many hunters-type campaigns.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:51 am

Yeah, if they're going to have the masquerade, there needs to be a reason for it.

Maybe it's easier to just form their social clubs and let the compound interest shore up their bank accounts and enjoy their own power plays/lives and not actually administer the planet. More likely, there's a sizeable fraction of the human population who just can't be mind-controlled, as well as a few pro-human groups who are in the know and make sure to knock down any supernatural nails judged to be standing up.

But a lot of supernatural power comes from their resistances, and they all have weaknesses. And thanks to stuff like the Internet and all, it's easy to get information out there. And it's too easy to write off the population as harmless/ineffective. It's a little more interesting to have the vampires going "Yeah, they have this thing now called an 'incendiary round'. You don't want to get hit by it."

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:51 am

oWoD combined the tropes of "everything in history was a vampire plot" with "magic used to be stronger". Seriously, the vampires who were supposedly running around when Rome conquered Egypt were like Daemon Princes in Warhammer 40K. Ventrue personally strode the battlefield with his very presence turning the minds of his enemies to jelly. All of human history is a lie that supernatural creatures made up to hide the fact that actual history looked like an Early Age game of Dominions 3. Complete with people turning the sun off for months at a time.

In aWoD, you get more power for being older, not for having purer blood. And there doesn't seem to have been an age of pure magic. So while the King of Three Shadows was probably relatively stronger in the past (because humans have done a lot of science and population growth in the last few centuries), he was still absolutely weaker. And while human history did have some vampire kingdoms and stuff in it, most of human history actually happened.

In nWoD there is no metaplot and nothing is "true". So while there are over a hundred books that claim all kinds of stuff, none of that has any real consequences because all books are "year zero" and every single thing is specifically optional and stand alone. There is nothing to be learned from nWoD books about what happened in the past, because there is no past and there is no future. It's one of the major reasons that nWoD fans are so thin on the ground, there is literally nothing to fight about. The Mage throne war is completely meaningless, because the existence of the throne in question is completely optional and the plot never moved forward (I use past tense because the last Mage book has been published) and there were never any consequences to it being real or not.

Catharz wrote:Also, I'm guessing Hitler was some kind of ghoul or supernatural...

That's actually even weirder than most of the rest of oWoD. Declaring Hitler to have been any kind of supernatural was off limits for some reason. So Göring got to be several different flavors of magic, but Hitler was always a normal human. Some really offensive books suggested that there was a logical reason to perform the Holocaust. To eliminate Werewolf kinfolk or Gypsies, for example.

-Username17

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:18 pm

Don Strudel wrote:
tzor wrote:That's the one thing I really liked about oWoD; have all the conspiracies you want; you know they are probably wrong anyway. All those global conspiracies are just bullshit bragging rights. But everyone's got their bullshit bragging rights, and everyone argues past each other just like they do in the real world.
So what you're saying is: these conspiracies claim to be global but are actually not? That they're really just a bunch of fragmented, independent fiefdoms that are aligned in only the loosest possible sense; in fact, that they are no more aligned with one another than the fiefdoms in nWoD?

You know, I don't think a lot of people would agree with your interpretation. Frank places a ton of value on being famous, and that all a vampire's accomplishments are pointless unless they are an international celebrity in the vampire underground, and you're just turning that on its head?

Am I following you right?

oWoD had a progression of "conspiracies" and most of the big bad ones happened towards the end of oWoD. I'm basically talking about the early days of oWoD, when the general product line was a lot smaller. There was a general pov in the original books that all of the splat books are from the POV of the splat appologist and are somewhat eggagerated in order to make that splat better than those other splats out there.

Vampire is a good example. Most of the centers of the Camirilia are few and somewhat insular. Many important human centers remain out of their control (New York being the classic example). Beneath the thin veneer of the Masquerade, power and generation form the heirarchy of any vampiric social order. It's almost impossible to trust anyone, even your own sire (especially your own sire). In fact, your sire doesn't trust you, everyone knows you would probably dialeralize him/her if you knew you could get away with it. It happens; no one talks about that in polite company though.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:26 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Catharz wrote:Also, I'm guessing Hitler was some kind of ghoul or supernatural...
That's actually even weirder than most of the rest of oWoD. Declaring Hitler to have been any kind of supernatural was off limits for some reason. So Göring got to be several different flavors of magic, but Hitler was always a normal human. Some really offensive books suggested that there was a logical reason to perform the Holocaust. To eliminate Werewolf kinfolk or Gypsies, for example.

-Username17

Yeah, it's important for supernaturals to be able to say 'We may be bad, but you do way worse to yourselves'. Although, the farther you go back in history, the less people remember atrocities (or remember that things really were atrocities). So it's probably OK to write some bullshit about the destruction of Troy or the Children's Crusades, but Sovjet, Nazi, and Khmer Rouge labor camps should be off limits.