The Official "4e Critique and Rebuttal" Thread

[Red_Mage]

LR, whats it like to know you are so fucking retarded that I had to reg an account to tell you how dumb you are. Go ahead and quote Frank Trollman at people instead of coming up with an original idea. Go ahead and insist that a game is easy mode because it makes a game about adventurers actual feature adventuring for everyone instead of halfway shifting another players role to something completely different than what the rest of the party is supposed to be doing. Go ahead and call forum invasion and sound the alarm that mean old mangosteen swilling Something Awful goon hivemind came down on you unfairly. Go ahead and try and claim that the economy of the world is such an integral fucking part of your character that the latest edition has ruined your ability to roleplay, it doesn't fucking matter.

Because there comes a point where the things you say are in such obvious contrast to the world around you that you have gone beyond intellectual dishonesty. Maybe you started to read and quote your own posts a little too much. Maybe you legitimately believe that the sour grapes Frank Trollman spews constantly are legitimate concerns that should be addressed and you just care so much. Maybe your DM touched your character in an inappropriate place when you were a young and innocent roleplayer once. Maybe it really is mean old Hasbro's fault after all. Or maybe, just maybe it is you.

Maybe you are the one who is incorrect, grasping at straws and blithely turning a blind eye to cited fact. Maybe your tastes are not objective fact, and no amount of backpedaling and goalpost shifting will excuse your willfull ignorance. Maybe you are trolling, and you don't even know it, again it doesn't matter, at the end of the day, you are just another troll on the internet. You are one of us, you may not even know it. You could pretend to be something greater like RPGPundit, or LagoParanoia, putting out criticism and fixes for the "good of all (real)" and of course you know what you mean by real "roleplayers everywhere." But it wont matter. Everything you post, everything you write, every argument and suggestion you espouse is endlessly run through a filter, and that filter is "just another troll on the internet," "just another TGD cocksmoker," "just another 4.failure" "Just another 3tard" "just another stupid grognard"

If there is one thing and only one thing you should take away from this, it's that LR. It's you, you are the grognard.

[Vnonymous]

Your screed is hilarious as it applies so well to you that it is comical.

[Mystic Mongol]

The whole point of playing a published system - particularly a rules-heaby system - is avoiding this. Is being a proponent of 4E requires sacrificing one's brain to Ctulhu, or something?

Erm. I'm a little lost.

Are you really arguing that the purpose of a rules heavy RPG is to remove the interactions between player and game master?

I'm just going to assume that what you meant was that there are rules there to limit the amount of time the player and DM spend debating effects, and that's certainly an admirable goal--for situations that show up often. In D&D, a game about murdering dudes and taking their stuff, there are a lot of clearly defined rules about exactly how you murder dudes, and how much stuff is there for you to take. The rules for playing a grain farmer, and the effect of the dreaded boll weevil, are not there. If, in your game, you do a little grain farming and boll weevils show up, the DM's gonna have to rule on that too.

Unless your system includes the quantum unified field theory, there are going to be times when different people will interpret these completely fictional abilities differently. You won't be able to test your decisions--any attempt to blast a pile of wood shavings with holy energy in controlled conditions is just going to end in heartbreak.

Meanwhile, each layer of rules you slap on top of your system like a handful of pork lard raises the system mastery bar, makes people spend more time looking things up, and causes even more confusions when people start complaining that the bardic daily Arctic Wind's effect on a flammable hardness 8 material should extinguish the flames caused by a sorcerer's astral strike ability because the chilling effect of cold powers of level 9 powers or above are CLEARLY stated to lower the effective hardness of objects by 3 for the purposes of all powers that degrade material condition.

We don't want to recreate FATAL, here. Why have charts for their own sake?

In 4e, they decided to leave the decision of which powers start fires and which just leave scorch marks to the people playing the game. If you find this decision difficult, I don't really know how to help you. Nut up and make a ruling. You might find it empowering!

[Lago PARANOIA]

RE: Fighters get nice things in 4E.

1.) Big deal. Fighters might get nice things now, but compared to the other classes avengers, swordmages, shamans, seekers, etc. sure as hell don't. All 4E did was shuffle the character tier listing; there's still a bell curve of power and a lot of classes can't get over the hump.

2.) I don't consider 'fights well in the combat minigame' a nice enough thing to justify this statement. Oh, sure, it is better that they're not totally useless, but 4E combat is incredibly restrictive in scope and just from a story standpoint squad-level hand-to-hand combat (in any edition, in any game) is a narrow tactic that gets more narrow as time goes on. Now the idea of the Fighter class is retarded and hurts the game so I can't blame the game designers too much for this, but the fact remains is that the fighter both in concept and execution remains uninteresting and staid outside of its niche.

3.) Because of number 2, we lost any classes being able to do something interesting. Yes, in the 3E PHB only 4 of the 11 classes could anything cool at higher level. That's fucked up. But in the 4E player handbook, none of the eight classes can do anything interesting at higher level. That's double-fucked.

[Mystic Mongol]

The idea of a dude who murders people with weapons is retarded and hurts the game?

[Lago PARANOIA]

The idea of a dude who murders people with weapons is retarded and hurts the game?

Yes, if you want to do one of two things:

1.) Treat the game with any more depth than a dungeon crawler with a string of fights.

2.) Have high-level special effects without creating cognitive dissonance as to why summoning a giant silver dragon is inferior to a plain sword swing. This isn't just the problem of fighters, but of Vanilla Action Heroes in general--mostly the martial power source, but there are a few classes.

[Mystic Mongol]

How about if I want to have a heroic fantasy character the likes of Fafhard, the Grey Mouser, Cu Chuchulain, Benjamin Franklin, or Elric?

There must be some room for fighters.

[Fuchs]

I play a pen and paper RPGs to do more than combat, and a system that offers nothing in those areas WoW doesn't deliver more (= all things other than combat) is worthless for that.

And that's where 4E fails: In the age of WoW, pen and paper needs to deliver more than WoW can, not a pale imitation of MMOG combats.

[Mystic Mongol]

Also, you can take your cognitive dissonance in your game about elves throwing blue red fire at dragons and cram it where the sun doesn't shine. What a waste realism is.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Benjamin Franklin, unless you're referring to some crazy Atomic Robo/Dr. McNinja adaptation, isn't a player character suitable for heroic fantasy let alone high level heroic fantasy.

I'm not familiar with Cu Chuchulain, but I do remember him being able to rage so hardcore that after he died he was able to cut off peoples' hands with his battle aura, he physically mutated when he raged, and that when he raged it was so hot he created steam explosions in contact with water. That's not a fighter.

Elric I'm also not familiar with, but he's not a fighter by any stretch of the imagination.

Fafhard and the Grey Mouser are not high-level characters.

[Username17]

Great. More 4rries.

edit: Basically it's a mess of a class that veers wildly back and
forth between being overpowered (a late-game Daily that flat-out kills an opponent) and being complete shit (having three different primary stats)

None of that is remotely true. It has three available builds that each hav 2 primary stats, not one build that has 3 primary stats. You can play it Dex/Cha, Dex/Con, or Con/Cha.

Also, a late game daily that flat-out kills an opponent is what passes for balance in 4e. You sure as fuck wouldn't fight a late game 4e solo, because that would be boring as fuck. High level dailies that don't do a lot of damage to a large number of enemies or negate a large number of incoming damage simply aren't used.

But really I think we've seen the important thing about these 4rries. They come here to 4venge us, but they aren't even introspective about their own game. It's pathetic.

-Username17

[ScottS]

And indeed, there is now a Baneguard class, with full complement of powers, written out in more or less the 4e format.(...)I'll save you a length analasys, but everything about that class is terrible. It's powers lack theme, and seem to fill every role. It has a marking mechanic which literally never activates.

Pretty sure that last line is false. I'm looking at the class for the first time, so if you're talking about this:

Tide of Battle Bane Guard Class Feature
Usage::At-Will ✦ Shadow, Melee weapon
Action Type::Immediate Reaction Melee Weapon
Trigger: You shift at least one square or damage an opponent with an attack.
Effect: You may Mark an opponent you can now reach. This mark lasts until ended by a saving throw. When an enemy fails a saving throw to end your Mark, they suffer damage equal to your Charisma modifier if they are within your Melee reach. When an enemy marked by this power inflicts damage, their damage is reduced by your Dexterity modifier.

then I don't see what the problem is. There's no direct "hit you when you disobey the mark" component, but the trigger to actually apply the mark is rather easy to fulfill (and mark does autodamage etc. save ends for the "punishment" aspect), so not sure what you're talking about.

The power list might in fact suck/be themeless/whatever but I'm not going to read the whole 1-30 auto parts catalog. The lv 1 stuff seems to have a vague "debuff things by hitting them" flavor. From experience with the board, I'm guessing the author(s) were going into the project with a clear "4e powers are samey and unimportant unless they happen to be broken" attitude.

But best of all are the downright magical power descriptions. They are the gift that keeps on giving.

WICKED GLARE
You stare at an enemy so hard they turn to stone.

DOOM STRIKE
You crush your opponent. With doom.

AMOK
With little concern for your safety, you run around stabbing things.

STAMP OF DISPAIR
You stomp your foot and your opponent's hopes are crushed.

See above (i.e. it's totally possible they just failed to write good flavor text at some point through the process, but I'm guessing those were sarcastic "this is BS fluff which doesn't matter anyway because it doesn't pertain to actual game physics" digs at standard 4e class powers).

[Mystic Mongol]

Benjamin Franklin, unless you're referring to some crazy Atomic Robo/Dr. McNinja adaptation, isn't a player character suitable for heroic fantasy let alone high level heroic fantasy.

Just making sure people were paying attention. Contrats, you win at reading comprehension!

I'm not familiar with Cu Chuchulain, but I do remember him being able to rage so hardcore that after he died he was able to cut off peoples' hands with his battle aura, he physically mutated when he raged, and that when he raged it was so hot he created steam explosions in contact with water. That's not a fighter.

Why, because he had special powers? He didn't have any magic (supposedly) but gained these abilities through martial training. By throwing his spear not with his hand, but gripped between his big and second toes, he could strike his opponent in such a way the spear would grow in them like the roots of a tree, instantly filling every corner of their body with barbed branches, pinning bone and shredding flesh. Through exhaustive daily training he gained the ability to leap over the clouds, and his 'warp form,' in addition to being the earliest recorded limit break, was simply him turning his muscles inside out in such a way as to toughen his skin and speed his step.

Can anyone really do any of this? No. Can anyone really study old tomes and learn to conjure forth gouts of flame? Also no.

Why is the idea of a man that gains special abilities through studying the art of war unbelievable, but the idea of a man that gains special abilities studying old books acceptable?

Elric ran around with his soldiers chopping people to giblets with his giant black sword, between binges of cocaine. Fafhard and the Grey Mouser once literally killed death. Being death he just laughed it off, but still.

[Piell]

Great. More 4rries.

edit: Basically it's a mess of a class that veers wildly back and
forth between being overpowered (a late-game Daily that flat-out kills an opponent) and being complete shit (having three different primary stats)

None of that is remotely true. It has three available builds that each hav 2 primary stats, not one build that has 3 primary stats. You can play it Dex/Cha, Dex/Con, or Con/Cha.

Also, a late game daily that flat-out kills an opponent is what passes for balance in 4e. You sure as fuck wouldn't fight a late game 4e solo, because that would be boring as fuck. High level dailies that don't do a lot of damage to a large number of enemies or negate a large number of incoming damage simply aren't used.

But really I think we've seen the important thing about these 4rries. They come here to 4venge us, but they aren't even introspective about their own game. It's pathetic.

-Username17

I've shit better balanced things than the Bane Guard, you drooling incompetent.

Edit: Also you can't use immediate actions on your own turn, so the marking doesn't work.

[FatR]

Erm. I'm a little lost.

Are you really arguing that the purpose of a rules heavy RPG is to remove the interactions between player and game master?

I love how you 4ons shift goalposts. So I'll just repeat - the purpose of any RPG, and particularly a rules-heavy RPG is to minimize this:

Ultimately, role playing is a form of expression, guided primarily by the dungeon master. Ultimately he defines the world's rules and primary assumptions. Different DMs run things differently, hopefully making concessions to the player's expectations.

[Username17]

By the way, where are these particular 4rries from? If we're going to be invaded by a bunch of mouth breathers, I'd at least like to know where they are from.

-Username17

[Mystic Mongol]

Tide of Battle Bane Guard Class Feature
Usage::At-Will ✦ Shadow, Melee weapon
Action Type::Immediate Reaction Melee Weapon
Trigger: You shift at least one square or damage an opponent with an attack.
Effect: You may Mark an opponent you can now reach. This mark lasts until ended by a saving throw. When an enemy fails a saving throw to end your Mark, they suffer damage equal to your Charisma modifier if they are within your Melee reach. When an enemy marked by this power inflicts damage, their damage is reduced by your Dexterity modifier.

then I don't see what the problem is.

You can't use immediate reactions on your own turn. you can't use more than one immediate reaction between your turn. This ability only triggers based off of your own actions, though. So if you attack an enemy and hit them on your turn, you can't mark them because you can't use the ability, a reaction. And if you attack an enemy with an immediate reaction ability, and hit them, you can't use this power because you've already done your one reaction a turn.

It could be fixed, sure. But it was presented as complete when it is, in fact, just a pile of effects thrown together like a monkey throwing shit at a wall and presented as a complete work, by someone with no understanding or interest in the system. The very fact Mr. Trollman believes this is an accurate depiction of a 4e class proves he has no understanding of the system.

Pity, really. I so enjoyed his writeup of alternate hacking rules for Shadowrun 4th edition. Cleaner, faster, more consistant with the other systems in the setting--combined with a metric ton of material explaining the changes between the core setting and the alternate matrix rules presented, and the effect this would have on internet use and society as a whole.

Of course, it's not really usable because it's a bad case of caster supremacy. 3e strikes again, I suppose. What a goddamn shame that was. Someday I'll run a Ghost in the Shell game and it'll be just perfect.

[Mystic Mongol]

I love how you 4ons shift goalposts. So I'll just repeat - the purpose of any RPG, and particularly a rules-heavy RPG is to minimize this:

Ultimately, role playing is a form of expression, guided primarily by the dungeon master. Ultimately he defines the world's rules and primary assumptions. Different DMs run things differently, hopefully making concessions to the player's expectations.

Instead of repeating yourself, could you reword your assertion, or find a clearer way to explain it? I mean, hopefully the purpose of this thread is to promote discussion, not just to echochamber off of ourselves and make up insults with numbers in them.

[ScottS]

Edit: Also you can't use immediate actions on your own turn, so the marking doesn't work.

Ah right thanks. Make it "free action 1/round" or whatever. I wouldn't say that error kills it as a proof-of-concept/though experiment. The WOTC classes aren't oozing with such intrinsic flavor that something 3p like Bane Guard isn't at least passable as a first draft.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Why, because he had special powers? He didn't have any magic (supposedly) but gained these abilities through martial training. By throwing his spear not with his hand, but gripped between his big and second toes, he could strike his opponent in such a way the spear would grow in them like the roots of a tree, instantly filling every corner of their body with barbed branches, pinning bone and shredding flesh. Through exhaustive daily training he gained the ability to leap over the clouds, and his 'warp form,' in addition to being the earliest recorded limit break, was simply him turning his muscles inside out in such a way as to toughen his skin and speed his step.

Great! He is an excellent example of a high-level warrior, but that character is not a fighter. Or any martial character for the matter. Martial characters are much more boring. Crack open a PHB or a Martial Power 1 or 2. Here is the flavor text and actual game effect for level 27 fighter encounter attack powers:

Adamantine Strike Your weapon breaks through shields and armor like they're made of parchment. 4W+str and target takes a -2 penalty to AC until the end of next turn. Guess we're dealing with self-repairing shields and armor, sigh.

Cruel Reaper: You spin your weapon about, carving into adjacent foes and causing them to scream in agony. Without warning, you slip through their blockade and make another spinning sweep. You make two close burst 1 attacks with a shift between each.

Diamond Shield Defense Your shield becomes your staunchest ally. You gain a +2 power bonus to AC and take half damage against the target's attacks.

Indomitable Battle Strike You will not be denied your enemy's blood, and other foes that witness your savage attack know the ill fate that awaits them. 4W+STR damage, mark all enemies within 10 squares of you until the end of your next turn.

I mean, really, WTF is up with that shit? That's not high level, that's stuff I can visualize Errol Flynn or Steven Seagal doing.

The only justification martial characters get to being high level at at all is that their numbers match up to that of characters with real superpowers--but that's just metagame handwaving. It's exactly as ridiculous as Batman being able to dodge the Omega beams from several feet away while still advertising the Omega beams as an unstoppable force of death that no one has ever dodged before.

[Mystic Mongol]

I still don't understand why it's alright to get supernatural powers from books but not from swords.

I mean, they're both things.

[Username17]

I still don't understand why it's alright to get supernatural powers from books but not from swords.

I mean, they're both things.

No one is saying it isn't OK to get supernatural power from swords except the Martial Power Source and the proponents of the Fighter class.

4e D&D claims that you should be allowed to contribute at epic level when people are taking upon themselves the mantles of dragons and gods with nothing more than the ability to hit things with a sword in a completely non-supernatural way. That's an incredibly low and uninteresting bar.

-Username17

[FatR]

How about if I want to have a heroic fantasy character the likes of Fafhard, the Grey Mouser, Cu Chuchulain, Benjamin Franklin, or Elric?

You know, trolling should be done in a way that does not immediately suggests that your IQ is in single digits. Fafhrd and Grey Mouser are worthless bitches who only get anywhere because the plot sucks their cocks. And I do mean literally. After a certain point they are incapable of even getting into any interesting adventure unless there are magical girls who want to suck them off for no explainable reason. Elric is a motherfucking sorcerer. Cu Chulainn is a goddamn superhero, complete with powering up and glowing battle aura. Both can destroy armies and reshape the landscape with pretty much no problems. I don't know what the fuck Benjamin Franklin does on this list, though, except illustrating that you are trolling and trolling in a stupid way...

There must be some room for fighters.

No, there mustn't. An average fantasy protagonist now is closer to Rand al'Thor rather than Conan.

[Winnah]

I still don't understand why it's alright to get supernatural powers from books but not from swords.

I mean, they're both things.

It is OK. The thing is that Fighters do not get supernatural powers. They're skilled but mundane, even if their arms or armour are magical. Now a Swordsage or Monk for example, they are supernatural warriors and getting power from a sword just makes sense.

[Roy]

And, if you're going to play a game all about grinding on the MOB, then an MMO, which does the math for you and leads to combat resolution time measured in minutes, rather than hours is infinitely superior. Also, using the same dice does not mean the same system, just as a Tandy and a modern computer are only distantly related.

Hey if all you expect from a tabletop is killing monsters then of course that's all the game is going to be about to you. Personally I like to roleplay in between and during killing monsters and have a few skill checks to see if I influenced some out of combat mechanic in the party's favor but hey that's just me.

We're talking about 4.Fail, not a real game, so yes, grinding on MOBs is all you can do. The system goes out of its way to say fuck you, you can't do anything else. Unless your idea of roleplaying is clicking the green dots.

Oh and they are literally the same system, I am sorry to break your heart. It's like comparing a laptop to a PC and saying they aren't the same thing. Both 4E and 3E are based around rolling a D20, adding bonuses, and checking to see if your roll+bonuses surpasses the target number. Some cosmetic differences have occured, like treating saving throws as offensive rolls against a target number rather than defensive rolls against a target number, but it's cosmetic at the most. The biggest change is the template assigned to powers but I'd have to say it's a good thing that only helps people who are just starting and further helps people who are used to the system by making sure all powers are presented in the same manner.

You're a hilarious failtard, you know that?

Oh well then I guess I'll have to stop being creative with my character concepts and I'll have to start ignoring the plethora of different power choices for any given class because you have proved that there is no room for creativity or choices by... oh shit you didn't prove anything you just stated a retarded opinion. Guess I'll go back to having fun!

"Do I want to do piddly shit damage and ignorable effect or piddly shit damage and ignorable effect? So many options. Over 9,000 options!" Paizil Fallacy. Now go fuck yourself, because no one else will do it for you.

I know you may think that you understand economics but when a demand curve shifts like it does in a recession it means that less money is available overall. It is possible, though I've seen no evidence supporting this and plenty of evidence denying it (see White Wolf being bought by CCP), that people may spend more on long-term investments like tabletop games but hey feel free to provide any sort of figures supporting your claim that people spend more money on games in a recession than they do during normal economic times.

Hi Welcome

Already been covered, if you'd do your research. However that'd require reading posts, and understanding them, instead of disregarding them in favor of wanking to your Thetans 4.Fail.

Tabletop games do better in recessions for the same reason McDonalds does. People still need food (and entertainment), and it's cheap, so it becomes more appealing.