Dom3: Revenge of the Den
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jimbojones1971
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jimbojones1971
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BNN Update
Tense Situation Along Chelmian-TC Border. BNN Bard Killed
A BNN Bard was killed last month along the Chelmian-TC Border. T'ien Ch'i officials could not be reached for comment, but the decomposing body of our correspondent was found riddled with barbarian arrows.
The BNN denounces this killing as the latest in a string of "incidents" against its correspondents. As every Chelmian citizen is well aware, freedom to sing the news is one of the most hallowed clauses of our Magna Carta. The BNN urges all combatant states to respect the status of BNN Bards as neutral observers - particularly in war zones such as the Utgard/Abysian War, the Most Holy Marignonian Crusade To Prove Death Is Not The Answer, and the Agarthan War Against the Squidfaced Menace.
Nonetheless, this particular incident merely highlights the tense situation between Chelms and T'ien Ch'i. The crisis has just entered its second month, and the clock is ticking for T'ien Ch'i to respond to the Chelmian ultimatum. Hundreds of Chelmian citizens pray daily at the peace candle lit at the start of this crisis.
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OOC Question:
NAP 3 means that I can only attack on the 4th turn yes? So if I DoW on Turn 27, I can only start attacking on Turn 30, or can I start attacking on Turn 29?
I ask for a clarification because Chelms honors its commitments.
Tense Situation Along Chelmian-TC Border. BNN Bard Killed
A BNN Bard was killed last month along the Chelmian-TC Border. T'ien Ch'i officials could not be reached for comment, but the decomposing body of our correspondent was found riddled with barbarian arrows.
The BNN denounces this killing as the latest in a string of "incidents" against its correspondents. As every Chelmian citizen is well aware, freedom to sing the news is one of the most hallowed clauses of our Magna Carta. The BNN urges all combatant states to respect the status of BNN Bards as neutral observers - particularly in war zones such as the Utgard/Abysian War, the Most Holy Marignonian Crusade To Prove Death Is Not The Answer, and the Agarthan War Against the Squidfaced Menace.
Nonetheless, this particular incident merely highlights the tense situation between Chelms and T'ien Ch'i. The crisis has just entered its second month, and the clock is ticking for T'ien Ch'i to respond to the Chelmian ultimatum. Hundreds of Chelmian citizens pray daily at the peace candle lit at the start of this crisis.
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OOC Question:
NAP 3 means that I can only attack on the 4th turn yes? So if I DoW on Turn 27, I can only start attacking on Turn 30, or can I start attacking on Turn 29?
I ask for a clarification because Chelms honors its commitments.
Last edited by Zinegata on Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
It varies by convention.
Most people think the turn you send the NAP cancellation counts toward the three turn limit.
I always ask the other party what turn they want hostile orders to start, then try to accommodate them, if their timekeeping is plausible.
Permission is better than forgiveness at the beginning of a war. By the end it will probably be irrelevant except to diploattitude, so avoiding an immediate race to the bottom is key.
Jimbo, I agree the dance is getting a little tedious. Where would you like to meet, other than our respective castles, I mean. If you hadn't picked a waste, I could have sieged you the first time, but the humanbreds started nailing the hobbits down near a flaming abysian and eating them when they were well roasted. It was bad for morale.
Most people think the turn you send the NAP cancellation counts toward the three turn limit.
I always ask the other party what turn they want hostile orders to start, then try to accommodate them, if their timekeeping is plausible.
Permission is better than forgiveness at the beginning of a war. By the end it will probably be irrelevant except to diploattitude, so avoiding an immediate race to the bottom is key.
Jimbo, I agree the dance is getting a little tedious. Where would you like to meet, other than our respective castles, I mean. If you hadn't picked a waste, I could have sieged you the first time, but the humanbreds started nailing the hobbits down near a flaming abysian and eating them when they were well roasted. It was bad for morale.
Wow, now that is a move right out of the age of chivalry. Asking your opponent for a time and date to face each other? The Chelmian Council of Knights applaud this action.
The BNN of course, would also like to know where this battle will be (if accepted by Utgard) so they can cover it for posterity
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The BNN of course, would also like to know where this battle will be (if accepted by Utgard) so they can cover it for posterity
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angelfromanotherpin
- Overlord
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jimbojones1971
- Journeyman
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- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:33 am
My understanding is that in this case you would be able to engage in hostilities from turn 30. When in doubt, I usually just check with the other guy (as Abysia was kind enough to do in this game with me, when ending our NAP).Zinegata wrote:OOC Question:
NAP 3 means that I can only attack on the 4th turn yes? So if I DoW on Turn 27, I can only start attacking on Turn 30, or can I start attacking on Turn 29?
The game is getting interesting
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TheNotSoEvilNecromancer
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Turn Sent.
Beware Man telling you I'm the Big Bad. Even people who don't even like me very much seem to think Chelms is trying to scare up a lynch mob against me.
This does not surprise me.
If I were he I would be desperate to keep my neighbors from noticing that he's beginning to really run away with the game.
Particularly with all gemgens available, anyone with a sizable and growing graph gem lead, much less huge leads castles AND cash, PLUS the first and second derivatives on research, is going to shortly have a very large off graph gem gen lead. This is where the real power in Dominions lies.
Since I am about to be on the catching end of a two on one war, I think it fair to say my territory will remain underdeveloped, even those portions that that have been spared Ermor's loving Pigpen-like cloud of death embrace. And while my I may have overdone my dominion push to keep Pigpe...Ermor out, it has very little offensive value.
If you look at the terrain adjacent to my capital, you will understand I'm just happy my early expansion worked out as well as it did. Particularly as I have never played abysia before.
I can't do much to affect events in the East, especially with the war taking up all my resources. But unless you are VERY new to this game, it's clear I'm just the distraction, a convenient patsy.
I don't begrudge Chelms his success, however, I won't be less than honest about the strategic reality. Worrying about me is a blind.
Believe it now, or find out in 10-15 turns when it will be far too late.
Beware Man telling you I'm the Big Bad. Even people who don't even like me very much seem to think Chelms is trying to scare up a lynch mob against me.
This does not surprise me.
If I were he I would be desperate to keep my neighbors from noticing that he's beginning to really run away with the game.
Particularly with all gemgens available, anyone with a sizable and growing graph gem lead, much less huge leads castles AND cash, PLUS the first and second derivatives on research, is going to shortly have a very large off graph gem gen lead. This is where the real power in Dominions lies.
Since I am about to be on the catching end of a two on one war, I think it fair to say my territory will remain underdeveloped, even those portions that that have been spared Ermor's loving Pigpen-like cloud of death embrace. And while my I may have overdone my dominion push to keep Pigpe...Ermor out, it has very little offensive value.
If you look at the terrain adjacent to my capital, you will understand I'm just happy my early expansion worked out as well as it did. Particularly as I have never played abysia before.
I can't do much to affect events in the East, especially with the war taking up all my resources. But unless you are VERY new to this game, it's clear I'm just the distraction, a convenient patsy.
I don't begrudge Chelms his success, however, I won't be less than honest about the strategic reality. Worrying about me is a blind.
Believe it now, or find out in 10-15 turns when it will be far too late.
I thought Dowsing Rod only benefitted people with at least Blood 1.Akula wrote:Don't forget Utgard. And douse bonuses make it more cost effective to break into blood with a pile of scouts.Zinegata wrote:Bah. That's only useful if I already had Blood, so your customers are really down to just Gath and Marignon (plus anyone who has broken into the blood economy)
BNN Special: Analysis By Bard Jon Simpson
Rumors are swirling today after the statements of the Abysian Foreign Office (or their equivalent), which claims that Chelms is "gathering a lynch mob against Abysia" and threatening to conquer the world outright.
These comments come just as the peace candle marking the deadline for the ultimatum against TC is about to go out. Our barbarian neighbors have still refused to contact or negotiate with Chelms regarding the Gathian conflict. Chelmian citizens still pray at the peace candle, hoping it will not go out.
We've asked one of our retired veteran correspondents, Jon Simpson, for his analysis regarding Abysia's statements:
"Abysia created a problem of its own making. Although I have no doubt that the Chelmian Foreign Office has been talking with Utgard, Caelum, and Marignon, they are not out organizing a "lynch mob". Instead, they are attempting to create a Grand Alliance against Abysian aggression.
Abysia has long been dominated by its military. Much of their income is apparently spent on just maintaining their existing forces. This is a major reason why the Abysian ambassador asked "Who wants to go to war?" several months ago - they need to fight and expand to maintain their expensive army.
The friendly blue giants are already finding it to their cost. The Abysians declared war on them and invaded their lands. They have already lost several provinces to the Abysians, and the Abysian troops are in position to invade the Utgard capital this month. And if the entirety of Utgard is absorbed by Abysia - then it will increase their landmass by 50%.
This situation should be intolerable to both Caelum and Marignon. Each is just over half the size of Abysia, and a further increase in Abysia's landmass - along with its accompanying gold and gem income - would make any Caelian or Marignon victory against Abysia to be doubtful at best. Especially considering both Caelum and Marignon are still dealing with the remnants of Atlantis and the threat of the Walking Dead, respectively.
Finally... regarding the issue of Chelm's power. Yes, Chelms is now one of the most powerful nations in the world, with a substantial gold income and a considerable lead in gem income.
However, most of our investments went into defensive improvements. Our castles will not suddenly grow legs and invade other nations. Chelmian troop numbers are up, but that's only because of the impending war with TC - a war wherein Chelms is acting in defense of a weaker power, as opposed to being a war of naked aggression and expansion.
Gem income is a different matter. We certainly lead the world in gem production, but this is largely due to our diligent efforts to search for the magic sites that produce them, which any nation could emulate.
And frankly, the major reason why Chelms has organized a massive site-searching effort is because it fears the power of other nation's mages. Chelmian Magisters and Judges, while diversified in their skills, are not exactly the most powerful mages in the known world. If the Walking Dead gained access to our gem income, then by all means people should be panicking. But our mages need a gem just to cast something relatively weak like Flame Bolt.
Moreover, we have been very generous in sending out gems and items to our neighbors to help them with their problems. Even now my sources report that an aid package is already on its way to Marignon.
Finally, Chelms does not have the capability to create Clams of Pearls or any other "hidden gem generators" which Abysia is claiming. The Patalans took the secret of powerful water magic with them to their graves, and we only have very limited Water magic available.
By contrast, it's well-known that Abysia has been getting large numbers of Blood Slaves, which would also probably account for their lack of gold.
Chelms has traditionally relied on "soft power", and their moves are often geared towards maintaining the balance of power among nations. Abysia threatens to upset that balance in the West. It's this clash that's the source of these comments from the Abysians."
This article was entirely the opinion of Jon Simpson. It is not meant to reflect the views of BNN.
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OOC: Soft power rocks.
Rumors are swirling today after the statements of the Abysian Foreign Office (or their equivalent), which claims that Chelms is "gathering a lynch mob against Abysia" and threatening to conquer the world outright.
These comments come just as the peace candle marking the deadline for the ultimatum against TC is about to go out. Our barbarian neighbors have still refused to contact or negotiate with Chelms regarding the Gathian conflict. Chelmian citizens still pray at the peace candle, hoping it will not go out.
We've asked one of our retired veteran correspondents, Jon Simpson, for his analysis regarding Abysia's statements:
"Abysia created a problem of its own making. Although I have no doubt that the Chelmian Foreign Office has been talking with Utgard, Caelum, and Marignon, they are not out organizing a "lynch mob". Instead, they are attempting to create a Grand Alliance against Abysian aggression.
Abysia has long been dominated by its military. Much of their income is apparently spent on just maintaining their existing forces. This is a major reason why the Abysian ambassador asked "Who wants to go to war?" several months ago - they need to fight and expand to maintain their expensive army.
The friendly blue giants are already finding it to their cost. The Abysians declared war on them and invaded their lands. They have already lost several provinces to the Abysians, and the Abysian troops are in position to invade the Utgard capital this month. And if the entirety of Utgard is absorbed by Abysia - then it will increase their landmass by 50%.
This situation should be intolerable to both Caelum and Marignon. Each is just over half the size of Abysia, and a further increase in Abysia's landmass - along with its accompanying gold and gem income - would make any Caelian or Marignon victory against Abysia to be doubtful at best. Especially considering both Caelum and Marignon are still dealing with the remnants of Atlantis and the threat of the Walking Dead, respectively.
Finally... regarding the issue of Chelm's power. Yes, Chelms is now one of the most powerful nations in the world, with a substantial gold income and a considerable lead in gem income.
However, most of our investments went into defensive improvements. Our castles will not suddenly grow legs and invade other nations. Chelmian troop numbers are up, but that's only because of the impending war with TC - a war wherein Chelms is acting in defense of a weaker power, as opposed to being a war of naked aggression and expansion.
Gem income is a different matter. We certainly lead the world in gem production, but this is largely due to our diligent efforts to search for the magic sites that produce them, which any nation could emulate.
And frankly, the major reason why Chelms has organized a massive site-searching effort is because it fears the power of other nation's mages. Chelmian Magisters and Judges, while diversified in their skills, are not exactly the most powerful mages in the known world. If the Walking Dead gained access to our gem income, then by all means people should be panicking. But our mages need a gem just to cast something relatively weak like Flame Bolt.
Moreover, we have been very generous in sending out gems and items to our neighbors to help them with their problems. Even now my sources report that an aid package is already on its way to Marignon.
Finally, Chelms does not have the capability to create Clams of Pearls or any other "hidden gem generators" which Abysia is claiming. The Patalans took the secret of powerful water magic with them to their graves, and we only have very limited Water magic available.
By contrast, it's well-known that Abysia has been getting large numbers of Blood Slaves, which would also probably account for their lack of gold.
Chelms has traditionally relied on "soft power", and their moves are often geared towards maintaining the balance of power among nations. Abysia threatens to upset that balance in the West. It's this clash that's the source of these comments from the Abysians."
This article was entirely the opinion of Jon Simpson. It is not meant to reflect the views of BNN.
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OOC: Soft power rocks.
Last edited by Zinegata on Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:21 am, edited 6 times in total.
Peace Candle Goes Out. Chelms Declares War
The light has gone out.
Our correspondents report that the "Peace Candle" atop the Chelmian Tower of Knights has gone out. This was immediately followed by Magister Wilfred, standing atop the tower, announcing that, "We have informed the government of T'ien Ch'i that if we do not hear from them by the time this candle goes out, then our two nations will be at war. They have not replied. My fellow Chelmians, we are now at war."
Although there was some wailing and lamenting at the end of peace, many other Chelmians turned out in the capital to support the nation now at war.
Countless houses in the capital are now decorated with green Chelmian flags, while crowds lined the streets. Small delegations from Caelum, Agartha, and Gath marched with them as a show of solidarity. Roars and cheers greeted the Gathians, who marched under the banner that proclaimed "Gathians Going Home".
There are rumors that the TC ambassador to Chelms has committed suicide over this failure to maintain peace. Both the TC and Chelmian Foreign Office have refused to comment.
Despite the dangers - and the loss of yet another correspondent in a war zone - the BNN will continue to cover the war and give the Chelmian public up to the minute news.
The light has gone out.
Our correspondents report that the "Peace Candle" atop the Chelmian Tower of Knights has gone out. This was immediately followed by Magister Wilfred, standing atop the tower, announcing that, "We have informed the government of T'ien Ch'i that if we do not hear from them by the time this candle goes out, then our two nations will be at war. They have not replied. My fellow Chelmians, we are now at war."
Although there was some wailing and lamenting at the end of peace, many other Chelmians turned out in the capital to support the nation now at war.
Countless houses in the capital are now decorated with green Chelmian flags, while crowds lined the streets. Small delegations from Caelum, Agartha, and Gath marched with them as a show of solidarity. Roars and cheers greeted the Gathians, who marched under the banner that proclaimed "Gathians Going Home".
There are rumors that the TC ambassador to Chelms has committed suicide over this failure to maintain peace. Both the TC and Chelmian Foreign Office have refused to comment.
Despite the dangers - and the loss of yet another correspondent in a war zone - the BNN will continue to cover the war and give the Chelmian public up to the minute news.
It is true almost all of my income goes to supporting my army, but that is because my income is unnaturally small, and my troops expensive, not because my army is obscenely large. 6 of my provinces produce zero income at 100 tax, and many others produce a pittance. my blood hunting is minimal beyond my blood sac requirements, much I suspect like Marignon's.
I have lost 4 temples in the last 8 turns I cant afford to replace, because my (after mage recruitment) income is less than 400 gold. And I thought Order 3/misfortune 2 was supposed to be a no brainer in vanilla?
Castles aren't defensive at all. they are the critical resource. They produce gold, mages and troops. mages produce research and site searching plus, you know, everything else.
As I said I don't begrudge you your success. But any reasonable extrapolation has you with unstoppable power very shortly. This is fine, someone has to win after all.
I just want to be clear about what is self-interested bullshit and what is true.
It is true that I am a large second tier power. I suppose you have to point the finger somewhere. But really, its not that plausible. I can't do much to you even if I were so inclined.
You and agartha are going to carve up TC, I assume. After that, if you are left to turtle even a little, your lead will be insurmountable.
Even crappy mages can make items and summon better mages, and make gem gens with a tiny bit of bootstrapping. after that it's all an exponential curve. Right now people can take your gem income by taking your provinces. If they wait too long, most of your gem income will be hidden and domed.
I would do the same thing. But if you are going to be so aggressive about it, you need to play with graphs off. Otherwise you will get dogpiled, and you will deserve it. I'm not going to talk about this anymore if I can help it because it is so obvious it is unnecessary.
Besides, I have to find out what happened to utgards other army before it appears somewhere I dont like.
But you would be my number one concern if I could actually reach you. If caelum, agartha, etc feel otherwise, they will learn the hard way.
That said I am really enjoying this game, and this player group seems charmingly devoid of annoying players.
So its good no matter how it comes out. Did I mention I need some earth gems or gold?
I have lost 4 temples in the last 8 turns I cant afford to replace, because my (after mage recruitment) income is less than 400 gold. And I thought Order 3/misfortune 2 was supposed to be a no brainer in vanilla?
Castles aren't defensive at all. they are the critical resource. They produce gold, mages and troops. mages produce research and site searching plus, you know, everything else.
As I said I don't begrudge you your success. But any reasonable extrapolation has you with unstoppable power very shortly. This is fine, someone has to win after all.
I just want to be clear about what is self-interested bullshit and what is true.
It is true that I am a large second tier power. I suppose you have to point the finger somewhere. But really, its not that plausible. I can't do much to you even if I were so inclined.
You and agartha are going to carve up TC, I assume. After that, if you are left to turtle even a little, your lead will be insurmountable.
Even crappy mages can make items and summon better mages, and make gem gens with a tiny bit of bootstrapping. after that it's all an exponential curve. Right now people can take your gem income by taking your provinces. If they wait too long, most of your gem income will be hidden and domed.
I would do the same thing. But if you are going to be so aggressive about it, you need to play with graphs off. Otherwise you will get dogpiled, and you will deserve it. I'm not going to talk about this anymore if I can help it because it is so obvious it is unnecessary.
Besides, I have to find out what happened to utgards other army before it appears somewhere I dont like.
But you would be my number one concern if I could actually reach you. If caelum, agartha, etc feel otherwise, they will learn the hard way.
That said I am really enjoying this game, and this player group seems charmingly devoid of annoying players.
So its good no matter how it comes out. Did I mention I need some earth gems or gold?
Re: The War of Words Between Chelms and Abysia.
Look, I'm not claiming that Abysia is currently the most powerful nation in the world and we have to ally together to take you down in some kind of worldwide crusade.
Instead, my argument to Caelum, Marignon, and Utgard is that if they want to survive (and eventually win), then they have to ally and prevent Abysia from taking over Utgard.
Otherwise, Abysia will grow to full superpower status, and both Marignon and Caelum will be screwed. Marignon has nowhere to go but north. Caelum would be sandwiched between Man and Abysia - not a fun prospect if both are hostile to Caelum. It's just the geography of the map.
Moreover, again, I'll reiterate: The reason why Abysia is a bigger threat for these nations is because you're forced to actively attack other people. Your economy has been locked into the army, which has to justify its existence by attacking other people. You're a "hard power" state.
Chelms by contrast isn't out to burn Utgard to the ground. I could have attacked Utgard while they were busy fighting you. It would have been tactically sound to do so. Instead we offered them aid and reassurances of peace. That's the "soft power" approach.
Of course, I'm hoping this approach will eventually bring me victory. As I said at the outset - it's the diplomacy aspect of these types of games that I enjoy the most
So, save for any sudden betrayals, the battle lines for the midgame are set. There are still wars to be fought and won to see who actually makes it to the end game.
Look, I'm not claiming that Abysia is currently the most powerful nation in the world and we have to ally together to take you down in some kind of worldwide crusade.
Instead, my argument to Caelum, Marignon, and Utgard is that if they want to survive (and eventually win), then they have to ally and prevent Abysia from taking over Utgard.
Otherwise, Abysia will grow to full superpower status, and both Marignon and Caelum will be screwed. Marignon has nowhere to go but north. Caelum would be sandwiched between Man and Abysia - not a fun prospect if both are hostile to Caelum. It's just the geography of the map.
Moreover, again, I'll reiterate: The reason why Abysia is a bigger threat for these nations is because you're forced to actively attack other people. Your economy has been locked into the army, which has to justify its existence by attacking other people. You're a "hard power" state.
Chelms by contrast isn't out to burn Utgard to the ground. I could have attacked Utgard while they were busy fighting you. It would have been tactically sound to do so. Instead we offered them aid and reassurances of peace. That's the "soft power" approach
.Of course, I'm hoping this approach will eventually bring me victory. As I said at the outset - it's the diplomacy aspect of these types of games that I enjoy the most
So, save for any sudden betrayals, the battle lines for the midgame are set. There are still wars to be fought and won to see who actually makes it to the end game.
Last edited by Zinegata on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's not actually true. Simple geography required I attack Utgard, as any other opponent would have made my borders absurdly elongated. It's a war game, and my territory is very economically feeble.
Not to mention my other choices were atlantis (cant get to them) ermor (now there's profit!) and marignon (one on one death struggle with ermor, hard to argue with that)
I have never been hostile to Mari or Caelum. it is true that at some point they may decide to declare on me, but it won't be because of my aggression. They can renew their NAP's anytime they wish.
I would be happy to peacefully turtle if I get out of my current war alive.
As you would attest, people with excess income like to turtle, where they run out of profitable opportunities to posture on the way to further conquest.
I just couldn't turtle with most of my territory useless waste. Almost no infrastructure and no marginal income made blood hunting prohibitively difficult.
Of course, having said that someone will make it impossible. Better actually do my turn.
Not to mention my other choices were atlantis (cant get to them) ermor (now there's profit!) and marignon (one on one death struggle with ermor, hard to argue with that)
I have never been hostile to Mari or Caelum. it is true that at some point they may decide to declare on me, but it won't be because of my aggression. They can renew their NAP's anytime they wish.
I would be happy to peacefully turtle if I get out of my current war alive.
As you would attest, people with excess income like to turtle, where they run out of profitable opportunities to posture on the way to further conquest.
I just couldn't turtle with most of my territory useless waste. Almost no infrastructure and no marginal income made blood hunting prohibitively difficult.
Of course, having said that someone will make it impossible. Better actually do my turn.
Last edited by Rabelais on Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jimbojones1971
- Journeyman
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:33 am