talozin wrote:3E allows you to make a larger number of meaningful character design decisions relative to previous editions.
And you had a nice post, but lost me everytime you used that word....or to put it another way.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Replace every occurrence of the word "meaningful" with "mechanical" and your statements hold true. This means then by meaningful you mean mechanical?
Does this help explain why i don't understand the concept a bit?
How does having less mechanical choices, mean having less meaningful choices?
Bull Rush is a term like many other than means accelerating until point of collision. Fighters or barbarians or whatever werent the only ones that could do it in the past, nor truly the only ones that can do it in the current. Wizards could "bull rush" someone, but with a "rule" for it, it actually removes that meaningful choice from the wizard without spells to do so. This is also a factor in my thread about the over-codifying of the rules.
Just having something written out doesnt make it a meaningful choice, only a mechanical one.
Applying the previous term swap to this one particular statement, should make it evident that is IS exactly what is going on:
It's just a fact: more mechanical choices -> more minmaxing. Less mechanical choices -> less minmaxing.
Bull rushing someone wasnt hard in any edition, the problem is rules were obvious to find on the things. Rather than making specific one case, the game should have allowed for things it did in other area...present a formula that all could use to do it, that was based on strength, distance, etc. The problem with this is...people don't want to use those kinds of formulas. They would rather let the singular feat/skill/etc remove things as true meaningful choices during play.
It really dumbfounds me why 4th edition HAS a rogue class, when all the roguish skills as spread acros everyone to give them meaningful choices. It might be better without a single class to do it, but why grandfather the class in when its mechanical choices no longer really belong to it. But it is an example of what I mean with the Bull Rush that you CAN apply things to all characters capable of doing these things. People actually do accept it, so long as they don't have math to do.
For my understanding of minmaxxing, it seems that those wishing to do that much work, wouldn't mind the math to allow a wizard to bull rush with a proper formula as it is a physical maneuver anyone with two legs and a body should be able to do.
So for the sake of minmaxxing persons, as opposed to those lazy gamers that don't really want to do much, why is Bull Rush required and preferred to have that single mechanical option for a single class, as opposed to a system that allows all to do it?
You mention the grapple/unarmed combat/wrestling rules of older editions...and those should have been fixed rather than just the maneuvers spread across feats, or power in 3rd and 4th for minmaxxing. This would have made a more universal game that gave EVERYONE more meaningful choices where it counts...during play.
Murtak mentions character attachment and questions it. The thing is that a character with only 2 bits of info (say name and race) or a full stated out 3rd/4th edition character, should have the same level of attachment, not because the amount of time to make it, but because the character is fun to play.
One enjoying making characters, will not really become attached to playing any one, but wanting to try many of their min-maxxed "builds". Likewise an easy one to make could be easily replaced as Tzor initially mentions, because some don't want to spend long periods of time making something to lose it in 2 minutes of play.
But these are the risks EITHER system has, where death is a possibility be it permanent or temporary death.
So what exact choices are being made and why? Why does only mechanical choices seem to be meaningful ones? Character creation is but a single stepping stone, the first and a big one, to playing the character; but there are many stepping stones to go and paths to choose while playing that are much much more meaningful that could mean the life or death of the character.