The Pursuit of Equality and Balance in Game Design

[MGuy]

Kaelik I am not surprised that you are specifically not thinking at all about how a wizard can bypass those things no problem.

However, don't lie (again) about what I've said before. I have said repeatedly that I do not *like* high level games and I avoid them if I'm running. I've played in plenty of high level games, I've RUN them too because despite me not liking them my players want a continuous story that ends with god stomping. This has to be the fourth thread where you've posted absolute bullshit about what I've said.

[Kaelik]

actually with Greater Invis you can just murder them with spells, fiendish octopi cannot actually hit the DC40 spot/listen to pinpoint(they have +4 listen and +6 spot), and aboleth do not have see invis by default (it's not even on the aboleth mage suggested spell list)

but keep this up you're a really funny guy

Fiendish Octupi who are not advanced in any way is CR 1, and so your level 1 Wizard just drowns. Advanced to the CR of an appropriate encounter, it has much better Listen ranks, and can in fact pinpoint.

Aboleths are CR 7, so if you spend one of your 1-3 fourth level spells just to hide from it for seven rounds, then it has already sapped sufficient resources to earn it's involvement, and if you cast spells at it, then it uses up even more resources. If you are higher level than level 7, the Aboleth is advanced as well, or comes in sets, who all have various different advancements, and which provide the type of challenge that is very much not ignored by Greater Invisibility.

EDIT: You get it from the half fiendish template.

Kaelik I am not surprised that you are specifically not thinking at all about how a wizard can bypass those things no problem.

A Wizard can bypass those things by not traveling from point A to point B on the plane of water. there is no other way for a Wizard to avoid those things.

[RelentlessImp]

...and aboleth do not have see invis by default (it's not even on the aboleth mage suggested spell list)...

This sounds just like a massive fucking oversight on the part of WotC, but what's new about that? Aboleths have illusions as at-will spell like abilities as 16th level casters, why the hell wouldn't their mages take something that, you know, defeats illusions? Especially one as prevalent as invisibility. Especially when its greater version is on their typical spells prepared list.

EDIT: Plus, you know, 20 Int, is a Wizard, has a spellbook and they don't list every spell the typical aboleth knows, just the ones they prepare.

[Josh_Kablack]

Aboleth are such gygaxian hosebeats that they pretty much ignore all but about 6 spells. They flat-out do not give a shit about invisibility, as Programmed Image explicitly can trigger off of auditory, tactile or olfactory cues. Plus, even if it doesn't see you, you're gonna have to make a Will save for each 5' of progress towards it, due to the perm duration on Illusory Wall. Then there is Mirage Arcana which functions as a save-now-or-die-in-30-rounds-without-even-getting-to-know-why, when you don't have Water Breathing up - and they spend the one round every 16 hours to renew that the same way I lock the door to my house when I leave in the morning.

And if you do trigger one of it's programmed images-functioning-as-alarm spells, then it gets throw Hypnotic Patterns at you from up to half a kilometer away behind literally hundreds of Illusory Walls which block LOS for you but not for it.

So really, you need someone with True Seeing and some form of Dispel, and a will save of 14+ and for the game to have a MC who sensibly houseruled against the "Natural 1 is auto-fail on saves" and then someone in your party has to have Water Breathing to even get into range of its Enslave, Slime and Mucous Cloud abilitiies.

[RelentlessImp]

Aboleth are such gygaxian hosebeats that they pretty much ignore all but about 6 spells. They flat-out do not give a shit about invisibility, as Programmed Image explicitly can trigger off of auditory, tactile or olfactory cues. Plus, even if it doesn't see you, you're gonna have to make a Will save for each 5' of progress towards it, due to the perm duration on Illusory Wall. Then there is Mirage Arcana which functions as a save-now-or-die-in-30-rounds-without-even-getting-to-know-why, when you don't have Water Breathing up - and they spend the one round every 16 hours to renew that the same way I lock the door to my house when I leave in the morning.

And if you do trigger one of it's programmed images-functioning-as-alarm spells, then it gets throw Hypnotic Patterns at you from up to half a kilometer away behind literally hundreds of Illusory Walls which block LOS for you but not for it.

So really, you need someone with True Seeing and some form of Dispel, and a will save of 14+ and for the game to have a MC who sensibly houseruled against the "Natural 1 is auto-fail on saves" and then someone in your party has to have Water Breathing to even get into range of its Enslave, Slime and Mucous Cloud abilitiies.

Yeah, but when you manage to kill the motherfuckers, that's going to be one hell of a sense of accomplishment. Thank you for the best summary of aboleths I've ever seen.

[Kaelik]

In this case, I am assuming they start in water, knowing they are in water, before the Aboleth ever sees them, as such, they are not subject to drowning, especially since they are trying to go from point A to point B, and ignore the Aboleth, who is presumably trying to eat their brain.

[Plebian]

Aboleth are such gygaxian hosebeats that they pretty much ignore all but about 6 spells. They flat-out do not give a shit about invisibility, as Programmed Image explicitly can trigger off of auditory, tactile or olfactory cues. Plus, even if it doesn't see you, you're gonna have to make a Will save for each 5' of progress towards it, due to the perm duration on Illusory Wall. Then there is Mirage Arcana which functions as a save-now-or-die-in-30-rounds-without-even-getting-to-know-why, when you don't have Water Breathing up - and they spend the one round every 16 hours to renew that the same way I lock the door to my house when I leave in the morning.

And if you do trigger one of it's programmed images-functioning-as-alarm spells, then it gets throw Hypnotic Patterns at you from up to half a kilometer away behind literally hundreds of Illusory Walls which block LOS for you but not for it.

So really, you need someone with True Seeing and some form of Dispel, and a will save of 14+ and for the game to have a MC who sensibly houseruled against the "Natural 1 is auto-fail on saves" and then someone in your party has to have Water Breathing to even get into range of its Enslave, Slime and Mucous Cloud abilitiies.

any monster with at-will spell abilities is going to bone a party really, really hard. hell, look at all the devils with at-will greater teleport.

this is one of 3e's failings with caster monsters; unless the DM is purposefully playing them stupidly or not giving them access to huge swaths of spells they can roll over many parties unless extensive precautions are taken. can anyone imagine running into a smart lich who goes Celerity->Time Stop->Disjunction->Force Cage->Laugh as party sobs because all their shit got turned into its components and they're now in a cage of pure magical energy, hell the lich would probably have a Dimensional Anchor ready for any caster types

[name_here]

*Sigh

Okay, seriously, you can't do that either because of the rules for timestop. They're on the SRD, so you might as well read them before making yourself look like more of an idiot.

[fectin]

Aboleth are such gygaxian hosebeats that they pretty much ignore all but about 6 spells. They flat-out do not give a shit about invisibility, as Programmed Image explicitly can trigger off of auditory, tactile or olfactory cues. Plus, even if it doesn't see you, you're gonna have to make a Will save for each 5' of progress towards it, due to the perm duration on Illusory Wall. Then there is Mirage Arcana which functions as a save-now-or-die-in-30-rounds-without-even-getting-to-know-why, when you don't have Water Breathing up - and they spend the one round every 16 hours to renew that the same way I lock the door to my house when I leave in the morning.

And if you do trigger one of it's programmed images-functioning-as-alarm spells, then it gets throw Hypnotic Patterns at you from up to half a kilometer away behind literally hundreds of Illusory Walls which block LOS for you but not for it.

So really, you need someone with True Seeing and some form of Dispel, and a will save of 14+ and for the game to have a MC who sensibly houseruled against the "Natural 1 is auto-fail on saves" and then someone in your party has to have Water Breathing to even get into range of its Enslave, Slime and Mucous Cloud abilitiies.

any monster with at-will spell abilities is going to bone a party really, really hard. hell, look at all the devils with at-will greater teleport.

this is one of 3e's failings with caster monsters; unless the DM is purposefully playing them stupidly or not giving them access to huge swaths of spells they can roll over many parties unless extensive precautions are taken. can anyone imagine running into a smart lich who goes Celerity->Time Stop->Disjunction->Force Cage->Laugh as party sobs because all their shit got turned into its components and they're now in a cage of pure magical energy, hell the lich would probably have a Dimensional Anchor ready for any caster types

That is exactly what I would do to a low level party who attacked a lich, or to a high level party determined to attack a lich in the manner of a low level party. (Well, no. I would do something similarly effective, but actually legal.)

[Plebian]

*Sigh

Okay, seriously, you can't do that either because of the rules for timestop. They're on the SRD, so you might as well read them before making yourself look like more of an idiot.

actually, yes you can because of the wording; Time Stop prevents you from directly targetting creatures. Disjunction does not target creatures, it's a burst that only hits magical items. Woops they work together! same with Force Cage; you aren't targetting anyone you're just putting a cage down around them.


from the SRD:
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

and

All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.

note that you are not targeting a creature, you're making a burst that only effects items and not creatures

[name_here]

Dude, you can't harm items worn by a creature either, and the wording of disjunction WRT artifacts makes it pretty clear that disjunction constitutes harming magic items.

[Kaelik]

Even if you could do that, Disjunction gives a will save. Instead of forcing hundreds of will saves for each magic item, why not just cast something that is AoE will save or die, then you can kill them instead of taking their stuff.

That's not even a particularly dangerous tactic if it was legal, because anyone facing a Lich capable of casting 9th level spells can cast 9th level spells, and so can also Celerity right back, and follow with their own Time Stop.

[Plebian]

Dude, you can't harm items worn by a creature either, and the wording of disjunction WRT artifacts makes it pretty clear that disjunction constitutes harming magic items.

and why can't you? the wording of Time Stop only specifies creatures, not a word about magical items

[name_here]

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm

[Plebian]

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature�s possession.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm

fair enough, I missed that line entirely and am dumber for it

in my defense it's been ages since I bothered with 3.5, though there do appear to be plenty of other methods to screw a party over such as Force Cage

edit: also Disjunction at any time is a completely logical move for a bad guy but never is used by the DM simply because it screws the party hard

[Kaelik]

plenty of other methods to screw a party over such as Force Cage

Force Cage does literally nothing to screw the party over at any time, and is pathetic.

edit: also Disjunction at any time is a completely logical move for a bad guy but never is used by the DM simply because it screws the party hard

Disjunction is not used for three reasons:

1) It's a 9th level spell. Most games do not involve 9th level spells.
2) It's not a completely logical use by the BBEG. He screws himself out of piles of loot in order to force a bunch of will saves that in the short run do almost nothing to prevent most members of the party from killing him next round.

Additionally, most BBEGs usually end up fighting on home turf with lots of minions, they would disjoin their minions, who have lower will saves than the party, and are more likely to lose items. And they would disjoin all their own defensive spells not not on their person, like their unhallow effect, or their permanencied walls of fire, or Guards and Wards.
3) It's called Game Disjunction for a reason. The MC would much rather say "Everyone roll a will save, if you fail, you die" than "Everyone calculate each of your items saving throws, and see if it is higher than your own will save, then roll 38 will saves, but make sure you keep track of which one belongs to which item beforehand, so that you know which of your items are disjoined."

Because one of those takes a minute, and the other takes 70.

[Plebian]

plenty of other methods to screw a party over such as Force Cage

Force Cage does literally nothing to screw the party over at any time, and is pathetic.

if the party is entirely made up of casters who have Teleport memorized (all of them), then yeah you can trivialize Forcecage but otherwise it's a pretty handy way to negate any martial characters effectiveness

edit: also Disjunction at any time is a completely logical move for a bad guy but never is used by the DM simply because it screws the party hard

Disjunction is not used for three reasons:

1) It's a 9th level spell. Most games do not involve 9th level spells.
2) It's not a completely logical use by the BBEG. He screws himself out of piles of loot in order to force a bunch of will saves that in the short run do almost nothing to prevent most members of the party from killing him next round.

Additionally, most BBEGs usually end up fighting on home turf with lots of minions, they would disjoin their minions, who have lower will saves than the party, and are more likely to lose items. And they would disjoin all their own defensive spells not not on their person, like their unhallow effect, or their permanencied walls of fire, or Guards and Wards.
3) It's called Game Disjunction for a reason. The MC would much rather say "Everyone roll a will save, if you fail, you die" than "Everyone calculate each of your items saving throws, and see if it is higher than your own will save, then roll 38 will saves, but make sure you keep track of which one belongs to which item beforehand, so that you know which of your items are disjoined."

Because one of those takes a minute, and the other takes 70.

why, exactly, would a BBEG value a parties' magical items over his own personal safety? why would he include his own minions? why would he do it at home? Contingency: I just cast Disjunction, Teleport to my house.

oh right because it's overly inconvenient to the players and as such is not used by DMs. it's not used because the BBEG values treasure over his own life, or because he likes his minions, or because any other reason; it's an entirely out-of-game reason which is the same that the BBEG doesn't chain-cast Empowered Split Rays of Stupidity and nuke the parties' Intelligence into the Stone Age with permanent stat damage.

[Draco_Argentum]

He actually has a decent point with that. As soon as the players can cast speak with dead the murderer has to take precautions against it, usually either ripping the mouth off or doing the whole ninja thing so that the corpse can't say who did it.

We manage to have murder mysteries in real life despite DNA evidence. The smart crooks take precautions the stupid ones rely on luck.

Eye witness evidence is also worthless. Stress does things to memory. I've personally seen video footage of myself in a dangerous situation that totally does not line up with my recollection. Turns out I was much closer to the breaking window I was about to hold shut than I thought.

[Kaelik]

if the party is entirely made up of casters who have Teleport memorized (all of them), then yeah you can trivialize Forcecage but otherwise it's a pretty handy way to negate any martial characters effectiveness

Incorrect, it's a way to maybe slightly reduce the effectiveness of a single melee martial characters who are completely unprepared for the eventuality at level 15.

If you cast Forcecage, is it the barred cage version or the flat one, the flat one is so small you can only barely fit a single PC in it.

If you use the barred one, then any archer or caster can just shoot out of it at will.

Other fun ways to bypass it, 1,400gp for a 10ft swift action teleport twice a day. 5000gp for 5 move action 50ft teleports a day. Wizard casts Dimensional Step, or whatever it's called, that allows every one of his allies to teleport up to a speed as a swift action.

If you are spending 1,500gp and a standard action to take up a swift action from a melee character and one charge from a reusable item that cost 1,400gp, you are a bitch.

Once again, the ability to use an 8th level spell to beat a poorly built fighter is not impressive. If ti doesn't do anything to the Druid, Wizard, Cleric, or well built Fighter, why are you wasting your standard action on it?

why, exactly, would a BBEG value a parties' magical items over his own personal safety?

Why exactly are you retarded? BBEGs don't value party loot over their own lives, they are just smart enough to know that most spells they would cast actually do more than Disjunction. If you can force 38 will saves on the wizard, of which he will make 30, then he loses the effects of eight magic items which he then goes and replaces. If you force a save against dying, you actually might kill him and thus actually gain from your 9th level spell.

why would he include his own minions?

Because it's a 40ft radius effect, so it usually effects everyone in the goddam room.

why would he do it at home?

Because PCs usually attack BBEGs homes, and you are the one so intent on him using Disjunction.

Contingency: I just cast Disjunction, Teleport to my house.

Contingency: When Disjunction is cast within medium range of me, Wall of Force to block line of effect to myself and my party.

Good, now you wasted a 9th level spell, did literally nothing to the party, and they now know their enemy. You are incompetent.

oh right because it's overly inconvenient to the players and as such is not used by DMs. it's not used because the BBEG values treasure over his own life, or because he likes his minions, or because any other reason; it's an entirely out-of-game reason which is the same that the BBEG doesn't chain-cast Empowered Split Rays of Stupidity and nuke the parties' Intelligence into the Stone Age with permanent stat damage.

No, it's not used because the in game effect of using Disjunction is not as good as using that 9th level slot for something better. It's not used because using it has more negative effects, and fewer positive effects than a good 9th level spell choice.

And the reason they don't use Empowered Split Rays of Stupidity is because people are immune to stat damage, and that's a single target ranged touch attack that might negate one of the four party members.

Sometimes, you do use it, but when they have Ray deflection, or high touch AC, or immunity to stat drain, you did nothing, and when they don't, you crippled on party member, and the other attack you.

[Plebian]

oh because you know it's perfectly reasonable to have contingencies set to trigger of someone else casting a specific spell, people are only ever encountering the BBEG in his house and he wouldn't ever say "hey minions after I cast this spell then you can go in and attack the heroes" or "well I may only nuke a third of the parties' magical items but for one spell slot that is hard to beat as far as reducing effectiveness", a level 7 spell that could incapacitate up to four people is a bad idea, and people are somehow immune to stat damage because... something


and man I can't get over that you think anyone, ever, would have Contingency: A specific spell actually prepared. do you expect any wizard to have Contingency: One of hundreds of spells could fuck me over, ignore all the rest

edit: also the assumption that the target of Disjunction would even know someone was out to get him with that, and only that, spell hahaha oh man you really suck at countering points. "well you see obviously the target of this spell would have this one ideal counter prepared instead of a more general counter that might actually work against other forms of attack. why? well because otherwise my argument just looks dumb!"

[RadiantPhoenix]

Compare 'disjunction' to 'imprisonment' or 'dominate monster': disjunction *weakens* several characters, while imprisonment *defeats* someone, and dominate not only defeats someone, but also makes them fight for you.

[Ice9]

IME, Disjunction is not used so much for the potential magic item removal as the automatic buff removal. Getting stripped of all that Persisted stuff makes a pretty big difference, especially when the "buff cycle" takes several minutes and a bunch of 1/day things you already used. Of course, there's anti-Disjunction precautions, but a lot of those either:
A) Are single use, so just spam two Disjunctions and you're set.
B) Cause the user to disappear elsewhere, which might count as a win for you (you can at least cast Anticipate Teleportation for when they return).

For instance, in any high-level forum PvP I've seen, the spell is either banned or used frequently.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I hadn't considered that.

[Koumei]

It would be nice if there was a Lesser Disjunction that simply did the Auto-Dispel and not the "make a million saves for magic items".

Although I suppose he can just have some random way of getting +$TEXAS to CL/Dispel checks and cast a regular Dispel.

[Kaelik]

oh because you know it's perfectly reasonable to have contingencies set to trigger of someone else casting a specific spell, people are only ever encountering the BBEG in his house and he wouldn't ever say "hey minions after I cast this spell then you can go in and attack the heroes" or "well I may only nuke a third of the parties' magical items but for one spell slot that is hard to beat as far as reducing effectiveness", a level 7 spell that could incapacitate up to four people is a bad idea, and people are somehow immune to stat damage because... something

1) Yes, if you are immune to literally everything else from your buffs, arranging a contingency to counteract Disjunction is a pretty damn good idea, not because the magic items, but because of the buffs. So your contingencied escape plan would render it pointless, because I'd just buff up, but someone else might actually stick around to be subject to a nuking next round, which, if they made the save of or survived somehow, they could pose a threat. Or if they novaed for multiple standard actions.

Of course, it's not like Contingency is the only way to negate Disjunction, the possession of a Ring of Spellbattle, or of the Celerity spell proves just as capable of negating your arbitrary "Disjunction then leave" strategy.

2) A claim that X usually happens is not a claim that X always happens. BBEGs are usually encountered in a place where they hold a distinct home field advantage from active magic effects and minions, to counteract their otherwise crippling action economy debt.

3) "well I may only nuke a third of the parties' magical items but for one spell slot that is hard to beat as far as reducing effectiveness"

This is false, You will never end up nuking a third of the parties items, but hypothetically, if you did, it still wouldn't be as good as Wail of the Banshee, in which, you would actually straight up kill a third of the party, (if the save numbers are the same) or just Mass Hold Monster, or Chained Dominate Monster, which would remove a third of the party all together.

You are confused because you think the BBEG should take actions to cripple the PCs long term, after his death, but this is a stupid idea, he should instead be striving to win.

4) Forcecage won't ever incapacitate anyone, but aside from your poor choice of words, it will never even seriously hamper 4 people, if you are really fucking lucky, you might slightly annoy one person and waste a standard action. If you are very lucky.

It can be useful against monsters, if you have reason to believe they are unprepared, but against PCs it is a singularly terrible choice.

and man I can't get over that you think anyone, ever, would have Contingency: A specific spell actually prepared. do you expect any wizard to have Contingency: One of hundreds of spells could fuck me over, ignore all the rest

Repeating myself:

1) Yes, if you are immune to literally everything else from your buffs, arranging a contingency to counteract Disjunction is a pretty damn good idea, not because the magic items, but because of the buffs. So your contingencied escape plan would render it pointless, because I'd just buff up, but someone else might actually stick around to be subject to a nuking next round, which, if they made the save of or survived somehow, they could pose a threat. Or if they novaed for multiple standard actions.

Of course, it's not like Contingency is the only way to negate Disjunction, the possession of a Ring of Spellbattle, or of the Celerity spell proves just as capable of negating your arbitrary "Disjunction then leave" strategy.

edit: also the assumption that the target of Disjunction would even know someone was out to get him with that, and only that, spell hahaha oh man you really suck at countering points. "well you see obviously the target of this spell would have this one ideal counter prepared instead of a more general counter that might actually work against other forms of attack. why? well because otherwise my argument just looks dumb!"

In order for a Wizard to not know that someone was casting Disjunction on him, the person casting disjunction would have to be subject to either Superior Invisibility, or be inside a silence effect, using something like a rod to add silent spell to the Disjunction.

Even still, if the Wizard had Foresight active, he would still know about it. Yes, the Wizard always knows about the Disjunction.

And yes, they would have that specific encounter, because yes, Disjunction is a powerful spell to use, even if the opponent is going to make every single will save, because of the buff stripping effect, which is of course, not going to carry over if you run away.

FYI, because you are confused, here is a list of items for a 20th level Wizard. First of all, he has a DC 43 will save, so you are not going to see him fail on anything but a 1, but here are the items:

Headband of Conscious Effort/Intellect +6/Rapid Casting/Persusion
Tome of the Stilled Tongue
Orange Ioun Stone
Ring of Arcane Mastery
Hand of Glory
Ring of Freedom of Movement/Protection +5
Anklet of Translocation
Bracers of the Entangling Blast +6 Dex
Gloves of Fortunate Striking
Robe of Mysterious Conjuration
Pale Green Ioun Stone
Bag of Holding
Belt of Battle
Third Eye Penetrate
Vest of the Archmagi
Mantle of Second Chances
Luck Stone
Bead of Karma (x3)
Heward's Fortifiying Bedroll
+1 Eager Warning Defending Spellstrike Spellblade dagger (GMW cast)
Rod of Extend, Greater
x2 Rings of Spellbattle on Familiar.

Now, of those 24 items, you can expect him to fail one save.

That failed save could reduce his spell DC by 3, or his CL by 1, or his to hit roll with a touch attack by 1, or his ability to penetrate SR by 2 or his ability to take a third standard action next round.

That's about it.

Most of those items have already been used, or are defensive in nature, which doesn't matter as much, when you just spent your standard action and he can actually kill you next round.

The buff stripping effect of Game Disjunction is good, and I even gave it to a class as a high level ability, except without the shitty item destroying part, because that's just a waste of time.

Attempting to use your 9th level slots to slowly destroy the parties items is silly, because they can get more faster than you can do that.