How much of the anti-4E sentiment is actually justified?

[Doctor Kenny Loggins]

EDIT: Explain the theory of Conservation of Energy with respect to "Delayed Blast Fireball".

Protip: When people aren't talking to you, don't try to understand what they are saying, we talk down to you so you can get an idea of what we are saying, but when I'm talking to MGuy, I don't talk like a retard to make it easier for him, so you apparently can't follow along.

You could have saved many words by just saying "I don't understand jokes."

[Novembermike]

No one sees what's wrong with [Radiant] being just a meaningless tag? Shouldn't it mean something so that there can be some kind of consistency when people use it for not bashing monsters in the face with it? I mean the fact that this is a first level at-will sends echoes throughout the system about what one could use any given ability at a given level for. What are their effects when not bashing people in the face? If the tags don't mean anything, the fluff doesn't mean anything, and all that matters are the in-combat effects (damage, DoT, pushes, and status effects) then doesn't this just further prove that a lot of 4E is just a videogame?

I don't think you get this, but there is no fluff for DnD. There's an implied setting, which has some fluff, and all of the other settings have some fluff, but for any version of DnD you're going to have to make some judgement calls based on the actual setting you're playing.

The thing that makes any table top game differ from video games is the DM (and the players to an extent as well). He gave you a ruling. If you want to bitch about his ruling go ahead and whine like a bitch, but you're wrong about it.

[Aharon]

OT:
Is there any way to make either
a) a daily into an encounter power
or
b) prolong the time you can sustain a power?

[Plebian]

one thing I notice a lot of is idiotic statements like "[radiant] has no meaning at all, even though it is literally a descriptor of a deity's divine power being transferred through a weapon" to which people don't even bother trying to give any proof for before jumping in with "yeah doesn't it bother people in 4e that this thing, that has nothing supporting it but my admittedly biased opinions, has no meaning?!?"

it really is idiotic; try not to ask stupid leading questions, or accept such debate tactics as being expected to answer "so, do you still fuck goats Kaelik?"

also arguments from incredulity are adorable and since no one here actually seems to know the definitions of logical fallacies while memorizing all the names, this is one because the statement is, "I will not accept that this opinion is false, therefor this opinion is true and I will demand that you treat this opinion as true. if you try to inform me that this opinion is not true I will throw a temper tantrum and call you names."

[Korwin]

Plebian is hard to read for me.
Did he describe himself with the last paragraph?

[MGuy]

@Novem: Indeed there are some edge case or minor judgment calls that you're going to have to make. But the [Radiant] Tag along with all the other tags are a pretty major portion of the game and their effects and basic interactions with a given world should be clearly spelled out or at ~least~ given a decent enough explanation that my dumb power gaming "Role" player mentality can't make fancy extrapolations like the completely unreasonable notion that weapons made of damaging light must give off heat idea.

I mean if it were in the mechanics that:
[Radiant] - Energy is a special kind of light energy that allows the user to strike with the power of the spirit ad gives off light as if it were a [candle, torch, daylight] then it would be completely reasonable for me to realize that "oh this isn't literal radiant or light energy this is more like spiritual energy I'm makin' on mah fist".

That sort of simple explanation should be in the god damn rules. It being "deific" power doesn't tell me what the difference between that and any other power source means. I mean I see weapon made of light (holy light whatever) and people scoff at it burning is essentially looking at a [Fire] tagged ability and scoffing when someone insists it should burn something. I mean that shit isn't advanced science, it SHOULD be common sense. The fact that I HAD to sit here and extrapolate on WHY it should've burned something makes me wonder about how "creative" the 4E defenders are.

@Plebian: Yes [Radiant] energy tag doesn't mean shit. What exactly does the tag do outside of tell you what bracket the power is in, what enemies it does/doesn't effect, and the damage type? What does it mean when you're not hitting someone in the face with it? Does it Bless things you're not smashing? Does it provide light? What the fuck does it DO?

Fire burns, Cold freezes, basic shit. But what does [Radiant], [Shadow], [Necrotic], [Whatever] DO? How are they SUPPOSED to interact with the world. Once you think of an explanation tell me why they didn't write it in a damn official book.

Edit: Also At-Wills. Can I hold their effect indefinitely? Can I use it to not smash stuff in the face? If I gather wind around myself as part of the move can I hold the power to cool myself off on a hot day? If I have a cold move can I sit still and keep my compatriots cool in the hot evening sun?

[Doom]

Plebian is hard to read for me.
Did he describe himself with the last paragraph?

For the most part, yes, Darwinism did describe himself well there.

Indefinite at-wills is an open question. There's a battlemind power that basically makes the battlemind immune to damage as an at-will.

So, when exploring, this character was constantly using this power...had no idea how to adjudicate that....4e is such a miserable game for trying to play D&D with on so many levels.

[Swordslinger]

Fire burns, Cold freezes, basic shit. But what does [Radiant], [Shadow], [Necrotic], [Whatever] DO? How are they SUPPOSED to interact with the world. Once you think of an explanation tell me why they didn't write it in a damn official book.

The same was true of 3E damage types too. Force, positive energy, negative energy, sonic? No idea on most of those.

How is force different from just whacking something with a mace? Somehow it ignored DR but the mace wouldn't. It was never explained.

[MGuy]

I don't need force to be different from whacking with a mace. [Force] moving stuff and hitting incorporeal is a fine explanation as long as its there because it tells me HOW it interacts with the world. Positive energy heals organic stuff negative energy does the opposite. Sonic damage damages scenery and creates sound. All those are explanations of what they do with the world and I can come up with creative ways to use them.

Edit: But in 4E EVERYTHING deals damage but doesn't DO anything else. As far as the rules go there are no other applications for these tags other than do [This] type of damage.

[Plebian]

@Novem: Indeed there are some edge case or minor judgment calls that you're going to have to make. But the [Radiant] Tag along with all the other tags are a pretty major portion of the game and their effects and basic interactions with a given world should be clearly spelled out or at ~least~ given a decent enough explanation that my dumb power gaming "Role" player mentality can't make fancy extrapolations like the completely unreasonable notion that weapons made of damaging light must give off heat idea.

if it hurt things by burning them, it would have the [Fire] tag.

I mean if it were in the mechanics that:
[Radiant] - Energy is a special kind of light energy that allows the user to strike with the power of the spirit ad gives off light as if it were a [candle, torch, daylight] then it would be completely reasonable for me to realize that "oh this isn't literal radiant or light energy this is more like spiritual energy I'm makin' on mah fist".

why does it need to explain this to you? what is added to the game by saying things like "[Radiant] is not [Fire], you cannot light fires with it"? what is added to any game by defining what form the power of a god takes, especially when it should vary wildly depending on what spheres the god in question has? do you really want entries for every god on what form their specific form of granted energy would take?

That sort of simple explanation should be in the god damn rules. It being "deific" power doesn't tell me what the difference between that and any other power source means. I mean I see weapon made of light (holy light whatever) and people scoff at it burning is essentially looking at a [Fire] tagged ability and scoffing when someone insists it should burn something. I mean that shit isn't advanced science, it SHOULD be common sense. The fact that I HAD to sit here and extrapolate on WHY it should've burned something makes me wonder about how "creative" the 4E defenders are.

what? no, [Fire] is pretty specifically damage through intense heat, it makes perfect sense for it to burn things since that's what fire does. [Radiant] is just the energy of a god, and if you're telling me that you think the [Radiant] granted by, say, Umberlee should set fires because you can't imagine any other way it would work I am telling you that your imagination sucks.

seriously you are accusing other people of a lack of creativity when you can't imagine [Radiant] doing anything but burning stuff.

@Plebian: Yes [Radiant] energy tag doesn't mean shit. What exactly does the tag do outside of tell you what bracket the power is in, what enemies it does/doesn't effect, and the damage type? What does it mean when you're not hitting someone in the face with it? Does it Bless things you're not smashing? Does it provide light? What the fuck does it DO?

that would depend on the player and the DM, since how it works is just how it's flavored. say if you worship Aumanator, I'd say that it would provide light and maybe look like fire as Sun is one of his domains. but if you worship, say, Auril it would sure as hell not take the same form.

Fire burns, Cold freezes, basic shit. But what does [Radiant], [Shadow], [Necrotic], [Whatever] DO? How are they SUPPOSED to interact with the world. Once you think of an explanation tell me why they didn't write it in a damn official book.

[Radiant] is godly energy flavored to reflect one of the dozens of deities in any game, [Shadow] is energy borrowed from the plane of shadows (or Shadowfell) that takes the form of an attack, or increases the potency by a weapon with said power, [Necrotic] is entropic power that speeds up the rate of decay. now that I've thought of explanations I will tell you why they didn't write it in the damn official book; it's an imagination exercise, leaving interpretation up to the players just leaves more room for them to have an enjoyable, original game with more customized abilities. the mechanics are the same, the flavor of the mechanics are specifically up to the player to create to suit themselves (of course with the DM's approval).

Edit: Also At-Wills. Can I hold their effect indefinitely? Can I use it to not smash stuff in the face? If I gather wind around myself as part of the move can I hold the power to cool myself off on a hot day? If I have a cold move can I sit still and keep my compatriots cool in the hot evening sun?

maybe, though it would be up to the DM, of course. it'd be nice to have rules for every action ever but no tabletop will ever do this because it's not possible and even if it were possible it would not be fun. so instead of making a partial translation of some real-world physics sometimes into rules it's left up to the guy in charge of the universe to decide.

[Bobikus]

So basically 4e makes combat encounters more rigid and non-combat more Magical Tea Party?

[MGuy]

I know this has been said and ignored but Plebian if your argument boils down to "As a DM you can adjust the rules" then that does not improve the official rules. In 3E sonic, force, positive, and negative energies all did specific things whether they were used in or out of combat. In 4E you have to make it up which means that 4E RAW DO NOT interact with the world while 3E's does. YES it SHOULD be explained by the rules IF you're going to say that 4E's RAW interact with the world.

[DragonChild]

why does it need to explain this to you? what is added to the game by saying things like "[Radiant] is not [Fire], you cannot light fires with it"? what is added to any game by defining what form the power of a god takes, especially when it should vary wildly depending on what spheres the god in question has? do you really want entries for every god on what form their specific form of granted energy would take?

There are non-divine classes that get radiant spells completely separate from the gods, too, so "a god did it" is not a valid argument here. Learn the system if you're going to lecture people about it.

[Doom]

Indeed, gods are very removed from 4e. A cleric gets his spells the same way a wizard gets his spells the same way a fighter gets HIS spells. A cleric of Tyr could literally burn his own temple down and it wouldn't affect his abilities, and a paladin could sodomize children with no real drawback (other than engaging in non-combat actions in 4e, which is generally discouraged).

[Aharon]

Plebian, I find your trolling annoying. While browsing the Something Awful Forums, I found this:

ProfessorCirno posted:

The Trollman comments read like some sort of bizarro version of Atlas Shrugged where the horrible "basketweaver" parasites try to interfere with the glorious power gamer Randian supermen.


I am Frank Trollman, and I am here to ask you a question. Is a fan not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No,' says Wizards of the Coast, 'he's getting an MMO.'
'No,' says Mike Mearls, 'it should be "balanced"'.'
'No,' says Ed Greenwood, 'it needs more prostitutes.'

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...

The Gaming Den.

A place where the wizard would not fear the nerf,
where the TRUE fan would not be bound by petty logic,
where the great would not be constrained by the small.

And with the sweat of your brow, The Gaming Den can become your forum, as well.

Could you perhaps adjust your trolling to be similarly funny? That would heighten my enjoyment of your input.

[Kaelik]

I could get behind "TGD the Rapture of TTRPGs."

[Plebian]

I could get behind "TGD the Rapture of TTRPGs."

especially with how Rapture fell apart because it was based on a false, unsustainable premise masked in idealism

[sabs]

I could get behind "TGD the Rapture of TTRPGs."

especially with how Rapture fell apart because it was based on a false, unsustainable premise masked in idealism

Uh.. what?
Do you know what The Rapture is?

[DragonChild]

I could get behind "TGD the Rapture of TTRPGs."

especially with how Rapture fell apart because it was based on a false, unsustainable premise masked in idealism

Uh.. what?
Do you know what The Rapture is?

It's a Bioshock reference - it's the name of the city in that game, and what the original quote was referencing. But I bet you money that Plebian will say something insulting about this, but refuse to acknowledge that his lecturing on "You don't know the system blah blah blah" is just plain wrong.

[Plebian]

Indeed, gods are very removed from 4e. A cleric gets his spells the same way a wizard gets his spells the same way a fighter gets HIS spells. A cleric of Tyr could literally burn his own temple down and it wouldn't affect his abilities, and a paladin could sodomize children with no real drawback (other than engaging in non-combat actions in 4e, which is generally discouraged).

actually, so far as your examples go, clerics can't "fall" in any edition so throughout time they could burn down their own temples, the paladin "fall" mechanic was never good for anything but antagonistic DMs abusing it to make paladins play the way they thought they should be played, and non-combat actions are every bit as encouraged in 4e as they were in any previous edition

now, if you go around acting against your deity there will likely be consequences with any group, in any edition, and if you sodomize children and your group doesn't immediately sever all contact with you they're horrible people and so are you.

oh and again the "templates mean powers are all the exact same" is an incredibly stupid statement; are all racial templates in 3e identical because they follow a template? how about spells? how about monsters? how about player classes? because you really should apply your criticisms equally or you're just being hypocritical

[Plebian]

I could get behind "TGD the Rapture of TTRPGs."

especially with how Rapture fell apart because it was based on a false, unsustainable premise masked in idealism

Uh.. what?
Do you know what The Rapture is?

in Christian terms it's a very odd idea that God'll suck them all up to heaven, but it's based off of a single line:

...and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be raptured (or "caught up") together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

and it's used like the retarded end-of-the-world-in-2012 bullshit and lets people feel all superior to other folk because they're absolutely certain that they're gonna get sucked up into heaven when it happens, even though that shows an overabundance of pride without the awareness of it, so they won't be able to repent and will probably not get into heaven because they're not even aware of their pride

[Doctor Kenny Loggins]

I know this has been said and ignored but Plebian if your argument boils down to "As a DM you can adjust the rules" then that does not improve the official rules. In 3E sonic, force, positive, and negative energies all did specific things whether they were used in or out of combat. In 4E you have to make it up which means that 4E RAW DO NOT interact with the world while 3E's does. YES it SHOULD be explained by the rules IF you're going to say that 4E's RAW interact with the world.

The rules can't cover everything. 4e is just less afraid of admitting it than 3e and less likely to try to cover everything where it really isn't necessary.

No, there are no rules for chickens. If there were rules for chickens, would it enhance your enjoyment of the game? Do you also need to know the caloric value of the grain the chickens are eating to accept that the chickens don't starve?

[Kaelik]

I could get behind "TGD the Rapture of TTRPGs."

especially with how Rapture fell apart because it was based on a false, unsustainable premise masked in idealism

More like, it's an awesome place where we create super weapons and murder each other, and it's everyone for themselves with constant shifting alliances based on the issue of the day.

But yes, we are idealistic, in that we believed by building ourselves under the sea, we could avoid trash like you.

[Plebian]

also, MGuy is hilarious because he states that all those energies did specific things in or out of combat

except those things were all part of combat, like how sonic could bypass hardness or fire did extra damage or negative energy healed undead. it's all resolved with combat mechanics, even if it doesn't take place inside of an encounter with you murdering things

[MGuy]

Nope but I do need to know that one pound of food is what I need to sustain myself for the day. I need prices for one should I need to buy one. I need stats for chickens should I want to kick one. Yes it does enhance my gaming experience to know that the rules are consistent and that SHOULD i care enough to pay attention to a general detail such as stats, ability/world interaction and consistency, and similar *general* things that general rules should cover.

Yes everything that exists should have general rules that should cover their existence. You know you CAN figure out how much a chicken needs to eat in 3E on a day to day basis right? The same as you can figure out how amuch a medium character needs to eat and drink to survive.

Yes templating powers that basically have no difference between them other than the word there is bad. Classes, spells, and abilities can vary VERY wildly 3E but not so in 4E. This has been visited and revisited again and again. But even IF you are going to do that there should STILL be SOME rules adjudicating how your powers interact with the world. Even in rules light systems there are descriptions and fluff for how powers work. 4E can't even match RULES LITE systems in that aspect.

Edit for ninja: positive energy does not take away scars, if you get to much of it you blow up, it harms undead instead of healing them. What does Radiant energy do RAW?