How much of the anti-4E sentiment is actually justified?

[shadzar]

Are chickens statted up in 3.5? According to the SRD we don't have rules for them, so I guess we have the same problem in 3.5.

Something in story telling called suspension of disbelief. While you know all things going on are not real, and you DO disbelieve them, the things must be given in a manner to suspend that disbelief in order to allow you to continue within the story, before you are jsut looking down on a dollhouse where you can see the hands actually moving the dolls around, rather than the dolls moving on their own.

Didn't 3.5 have it set up so that a 20 lb dog could take out several commoners with basic weapons?

Sorry, i dont know 3.x very well, and will have to defer that to others around here.

I think the most important point as CCarter pointed out, that under the rules of 4th edition, the suspension of disbelief is scattered.

Minions could not be good to have a chicken as, cause the rules for even those lowly HP creatures, would leave some chickens alive that shouldn't be.

4th edition makes rules for threats, but leaves a lot of holes so it holds water about as well as a sieve when looking at consistency.

The fact that other editions, maybe even 3.x allowed for chickens to have stats, left room for much more than just handwaving your dinner.

In part 4th doesnt allow for stating chickens because that would be a part of the bookkeeping that was removed to not have to track rations and foraging, etc...cause those things aren't fun to anybody.

The handwaving also protects the wizard, because a housecat doesn't have stats, and therefore cannot fight a wizard or do damage to it to kill it.

God forbid if a chicken had stats in 4th, then people would be hen-pecking about how weak wizards are still.

[tussock]

Are chickens statted up in 3.5? According to the SRD we don't have rules for them, so I guess we have the same problem in 3.5.

Easy, Fine Animal, Str 1, Dex 12, Con 4, etc, AC 15, ~1 hp, -5 to hit, 1d1-5 damage. Mv 15, Fly 30(Clumsy).

Didn't 3.5 have it set up so that a 20 lb dog could take out several commoners with basic weapons?

Hmm, 20-50lb dog does d4+1 at +2 vs AC 10 and 3 hp (about 1 dying per 3 attacks, or 1 per 2 on 0 or less). com1 does d6 at +0 vs AC 15 and 6 hp (about 6 attacks needed to down it). So three skinny peasants with clubs take out the dog in about three rounds, with one or two needing medical attention as a result.

Ideally, the dog would have Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, which would let two Com1's handle it, but it's a particularly vicious breed as presented.

I'd compare with 4e, but I don't think dogs exist any more, and both sides would have exactly the same stats anyway.

[CCarter]

if I, personally, can kick a chicken to death I really do not feel the need to have rules regarding my heroic character doing it. just like I don't need rules for him shitting, or writing term papers, or cooking dinner. these are mundane activities I can do myself. I don't need a game telling me that it's possible for Bran, Slayer of Giants to do them.

Well, you're very much living inside the box where "can I kill it?" is the only important question.
In 3.5, though not a chicken example exactly, we had an incident where the druid became a bird (I forget the exact variety but she was limited to something Eagle-sized) to spy on a ship, got shot as being highly suspicious, fell out of the sky due to the flying rules and had sailors converge going "demon bird!" (she still had druid hit points).

In 3.5 a vindictive GM could also curse a PC with the 'werechicken' template. Every time you take damage, you'd have to make a save to not become a chicken.

[shadzar]

Something in story telling called suspension of disbelief. While you know all things going on are not real, and you DO disbelieve them, the things must be given in a manner to suspend that disbelief in order to allow you to continue within the story, before you are jsut looking down on a dollhouse where you can see the hands actually moving the dolls around, rather than the dolls moving on their own.

If you can just kick a chicken dead, then it could easily extend into kicking a tarrasque dead, since you are telling a story anyway, you can do anything in it without bounds or rules.

yes, obviously because if you can say "I kick an inconsequential animal who will never be a threat to anyone to death" you can say "I kick a gigantic dinosaurcrabthing to death" because the two are totally equivalent in tabletop terms

It is walking a thin line to know what is believable and what is not with ANY story, the better it is done, then to more that line is blurred so that you don't mind it being there and you can continue with the story.

if I, personally, can kick a chicken to death I really do not feel the need to have rules regarding my heroic character doing it. just like I don't need rules for him shitting, or writing term papers, or cooking dinner. these are mundane activities I can do myself. I don't need a game telling me that it's possible for Bran, Slayer of Giants to do them.

I can only guess you are a total newb to D&D and gaming, and came in with 4th, maybe 3rd edition.

This is because you clearly don't know the concept behind the phrase "if it has stats we can kill it."

This concept comes from an earlier one in which given enough time a fighter could destroy an entire castle simply bashing it with rocks. "if i can hit it, i can destroy it given enough time."

Anyone remember Bash as a fighter tactic?

a tarrasque has hit points, so why not a chicken?

chicken's aren't consequential because of what? size? Ever heard of Rot Grubs? Ever seen the disease charts in 1st edition where things like influenza existed?

Know why dwarves got a defense bonus against ogres or otherwise larger characters?

Because the smaller a foe, the more maneuverable that you can be, and a harder target to hit, while it can continue hitting you until death before making a decent blow.

FBMF recently had a thread about useless spells in 3.x, i recall mentioning animal messenger...but you know what? I withdraw that and will give you a reason why a chicken could be a viable threat....chickens grenades. whole damn coop or flock of em.

just try to save your ass from a bunch of chickens running around with timed fuses before the explosion. they still so inconsequential to you now?

and chickens being territorial they will fight back, so were used as gaurd devices by people before everyone had access to dog, or when the dogs would be killing the chickens...so chickens are a dangerous creature if you have been around them more than buying a bucket from KFC.

a tarrasque has hit points, a kick does damage, given enough time, you can kick a tarrasque to death and it might not even notice because the amount of damage is so small with each kick. so yes, if you can kick a chicken to death with no stats, then you can kick a tarrasque or anything else with or without stats to death.

if a kick does one damage, and you have 300 people around a sleeping tarrasque each kick it at the same time, then you now have a 0 HP tarrasque, so its jsut the same as a single person kicking a 1 HP chicken to death.

You are definitely one of WotC's plebians.

[Koumei]

ProfessorCirno posted:

The Trollman comments read like some sort of bizarro version of Atlas Shrugged where the horrible "basketweaver" parasites try to interfere with the glorious power gamer Randian supermen.


I am Frank Trollman, and I am here to ask you a question. Is a fan not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No,' says Wizards of the Coast, 'he's getting an MMO.'
'No,' says Mike Mearls, 'it should be "balanced"'.'
'No,' says Ed Greenwood, 'it needs more prostitutes.'

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...

The Gaming Den.

A place where the wizard would not fear the nerf,
where the TRUE fan would not be bound by petty logic,
where the great would not be constrained by the small.

And with the sweat of your brow, The Gaming Den can become your forum, as well.

Well, that answers one question. "Is the sweat-of-brow thing taken from Communist writings (putting things back in the hands of the workers), or is it from Capitalist writings (don't tax me, dirty gubmint!)?"

And it seems more and more likely like this is just a case of Cirno sending his goons here. I should go harass him on sup/tg/ or something. If I get upgraded one more level I'll be able to change his name there.

[Novembermike]

Hmm, 20-50lb dog does d4+1 at +2 vs AC 10 and 3 hp (about 1 dying per 3 attacks, or 1 per 2 on 0 or less). com1 does d6 at +0 vs AC 15 and 6 hp (about 6 attacks needed to down it). So three skinny peasants with clubs take out the dog in about three rounds, with one or two needing medical attention as a result.

Ideally, the dog would have Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, which would let two Com1's handle it, but it's a particularly vicious breed as presented.

What? Commoner 1 is an NPC class so the character rolls his starting HP, and assuming no stat bonuses he's going to be at 2 hp (which dies to a dog in 1 hit).

Basically, the dog will kill a commoner on average every 12/20 rounds while the commoner will do 1.16667 damage per round (basically 1) and need to do 6 damage, so around 5 rounds. Some commoners with weapons can gang up on it and hope only one of them dies, but even three could conceivably get unlucky and all die to this "fairly small dog of about 20 to 50 pounds in weight".

EDIT: This all assumes the commoner chose club as his single proficiency. If he chose crossbow or dagger he's further down the hole.

[MGuy]

Are chickens statted up in 3.5? According to the SRD we don't have rules for them, so I guess we have the same problem in 3.5.

Something in story telling called suspension of disbelief. While you know all things going on are not real, and you DO disbelieve them, the things must be given in a manner to suspend that disbelief in order to allow you to continue within the story, before you are jsut looking down on a dollhouse where you can see the hands actually moving the dolls around, rather than the dolls moving on their own.

Didn't 3.5 have it set up so that a 20 lb dog could take out several commoners with basic weapons?

There are rules in DnD for generating monsters and creatures like a chicken. Clear consistent ones for 1st level, small animals. Even gives them a list of skills they can have and all of that stuff.

As for being able to be killed by a housecat, yes. I am not ashamed to admit that that is a problem with 3.5. I don't like that problem but it IS there and I won't defend it.

[Shazbot79]

There are rules in DnD for generating monsters and creatures like a chicken. Clear consistent ones for 1st level, small animals. Even gives them a list of skills they can have and all of that stuff.

So I can spend my free time assigning skill ranks and feats to a chicken.

Huzzah.

This just became my primary argument against 3rd edition.

[Plebian]

I can only guess you are a total newb to D&D and gaming, and came in with 4th, maybe 3rd edition.

AD&D actually quick let's measure our respective involvement in the hobby like it means a damn thing besides idiotic e-penis measurements

This is because you clearly don't know the concept behind the phrase "if it has stats we can kill it."

which is a stupid metagamey phrase for people who just want a tactical wargame

This concept comes from an earlier one in which given enough time a fighter could destroy an entire castle simply bashing it with rocks. "if i can hit it, i can destroy it given enough time."

that's nice, but pointless.

a tarrasque has hit points, so why not a chicken?

because it's a chicken and not a giant, country-terrorizing abomination probably

chicken's aren't consequential because of what? size? Ever heard of Rot Grubs? Ever seen the disease charts in 1st edition where things like influenza existed?

yeah, farm animals are totally equivalent to creatures specifically designed to kill people.

Know why dwarves got a defense bonus against ogres or otherwise larger characters?

because dwarves train extensively to engage giantkin

Because the smaller a foe, the more maneuverable that you can be, and a harder target to hit, while it can continue hitting you until death before making a decent blow.

yeah, man, them worms may be tiny but look at them manuever oh shit wait that doesn't actually work at all

FBMF recently had a thread about useless spells in 3.x, i recall mentioning animal messenger...but you know what? I withdraw that and will give you a reason why a chicken could be a viable threat....chickens grenades. whole damn coop or flock of em.

and you can defeat them by walking briskly away. chickens aren't exactly speed demons, man.

just try to save your ass from a bunch of chickens running around with timed fuses before the explosion. they still so inconsequential to you now?

yes, because you can easily escape a chicken even if it's going to explode

and chickens being territorial they will fight back, so were used as gaurd devices by people before everyone had access to dog, or when the dogs would be killing the chickens...so chickens are a dangerous creature if you have been around them more than buying a bucket from KFC.

you're thinking geese, actually. chickens are somewhat petty but horrible guard animals as they prefer to get into a small enclosed area and go to sleep after the sun goes down. so, no, chickens are not dangerous in any way.

a tarrasque has hit points, a kick does damage, given enough time, you can kick a tarrasque to death and it might not even notice because the amount of damage is so small with each kick. so yes, if you can kick a chicken to death with no stats, then you can kick a tarrasque or anything else with or without stats to death.

what does this even mean

if a kick does one damage, and you have 300 people around a sleeping tarrasque each kick it at the same time, then you now have a 0 HP tarrasque, so its jsut the same as a single person kicking a 1 HP chicken to death.

actually a tarrasque has DR 15/epic so feel free to surround it with as many kicking idiots as you want, they won't do a damned thing to it

[MGuy]

You're seriously going to say that being ABLE to stat out a chicken as an argument against the system? You've got to be joking.

[Plebian]

yeah, it is, because the idea of a tiny farm animal with any sort of levels is a hilarious example on why you shouldn't try to make non-PCs follow PC-style character generation

[Doom]

This does lead into an important point of view difference between 4e and AD&D, which I realized in my 'old school' campaign last weekend, when I had to figure out the stats for a prehistoric rhino.

I needed to figure out the AC of a rhino...I gave it AC 4, pretty good, but not quite plate armor by any means. In other words, the AC depended on the creature.

In 4e, the way how I'd give the AC of a rhino? It would depend on the level of characters it was up against.

It's a completely different paradigm, and while might not be the core of what makes 4e so problematic, is definitely a factor.

[Shazbot79]

You're seriously going to say that being ABLE to stat out a chicken as an argument against the system? You've got to be joking.

Chickens...with skill ranks.

[MGuy]

Because Jump, Climb, etc are things animals do...

[shadzar]

yeah, farm animals are totally equivalent to creatures specifically designed to kill people.

Yeah because nobody ever in the course of history was killed by a farm animal. Not even people wearing appropriate protection, because all livestock is just mundane and not dangerous.

Please go live on a farm for a while and test that theory to its fullest to see if you can get an animal to kill you.

Shouldn't be a problem for you since you are sure that a farm animal isnt designed to kill, people or anything else.

Return AFTER you have obtained your results, not before.

[shadzar]

In 4e, the way how I'd give the AC of a rhino? It would depend on the level of characters it was up against.

It's a completely different paradigm, and while might not be the core of what makes 4e so problematic, is definitely a factor.

Yes.

Breaks my SoD rather quickly when it seems EVERY opponent that would be faced just happens to be of the same strength as ME.

The entire world gains levels with me, and no longer is there anyone new at a lower level, and no one higher, because damned if everything isnt JUST RIGHT to be fighting ME.

Could you imagine a farmer with epic level chickens? Would you want to fight that farmer if he can solo the entire lot of chickens just to get his dinner?

4th edition is 100% gamist in everything it represents because there is no believability once you look at the world.

What kind of powers would heroic/paragon/epic level chickens have?

Wait a minute, epic level chicken? Cockatrice?

That means a Chocobo is paragon, and barnyard chicken would be the heroic tier/minions....

4th edition breaks another 4th often as it can...the 4th wall.

[Vnonymous]

haha watch me rip apart shadzar, obviously the greatest intellect on the gaming den and ignore kaelik, because he is obviously the dumbest person here

[CCarter]

Chickens...with skill ranks.

My chicken takes Craft and uses it to make additional chickens...

[violence in the media]

Man, now I'm hungry...and I want a chicken-related adventure.

[Darth Rabbitt]

I can't stop thinking about the part of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality where Harry sees Fawkes for the first time and says that "Professor Dumbledore set fire to a chicken!"

[Kaelik]

haha watch me rip apart shadzar, obviously the greatest intellect on the gaming den and ignore kaelik, because he is obviously the dumbest person here

Pretty sure you just accidentally implied that I am the greatest intellect on TGD.

[Ferret]

Chocobos: Epic Chickens.

[Koumei]

Man, now I'm hungry...and I want a chicken-related adventure. :tongue:

Chickens keep getting sent over the walls into the prison, and it turns out the chickens are muling magic items, so there was a prison break.

It looks like a jailbird... *sunglasses* ...has returned to roost.
It seems the bird is the only one... *sunglasses* ...who didn't fly the coop.
It looks like prison... *sunglasses* ...has a problem with the cock.

You need to stop the influx of chickens and find a way to track the chickens back to the owner, so you can kill him.

It turns out to be a bitter chicken breeder who has a problem with society, and his house in infested with a SWARM OF CHICKENS. Also he has a Magnificent Crested Big Black Cock, the result of years of immaculate breeding (treat it as a Half (Black) Dragon Chicken). It will probably try to defend him. At any rate, after the players choke the chicken they can go home to great fanfare, and have all the eggs and KFC they could want.

I think that would make a fine low-level adventure.

[Fuchs]

And for a RP challenge: Solve the mystery of whether the chicken or the egg was there first.

[Darth Rabbitt]

Well, the Zelda series taught us that chicken swarms are a hero-level challenge.