@Plebian
in my mind that's a silly way of putting it; every class in 3e appears extremely similar, just looking at the text entries, because of the class template. all spells appear extremely similar because of the spell template. this doesn't in any way make them similar in action.
the argument you're making here seems to be one of format, where everything is laid out in a precise and identical manner for all classes, which only increases ease of use both for new users and veterans of the system. but you don't like the look, which is understandable; every power is boxed up and color-coded for ease of use but that can look pretty silly.
I guess some of the perceived blandness also comes from the difference in amount of fluff. An example: Compare the 3e cleric entry
The handiwork of the gods is everywhere—in places of natural beauty, in mighty crusades, in soaring temples, and in the hearts of worshipers. Like people, gods run the gamut from benevolent to malicious, reserved to intrusive, simple to inscrutable. The gods, however, work mostly through intermediaries—their clerics. Good clerics heal, protect, and avenge. Evil clerics pillage, destroy, and sabotage. A cleric uses the power of his god to make his god’s will manifest. And if a cleric uses his god’s power to improve his own lot, that’s to be expected, too.
Adventures: Ideally, a cleric’s adventures support his god’s causes, at least in a general way. A good cleric, for example, helps those in need. If, through noble acts, he can improve the reputation to his god or temple, that’s even better. An evil cleric seeks to increase his own power and that of his deity, so that others will respect and fear both. Clerics sometimes receive orders, or at least suggestions, from their ecclesiastical superiors, directing them to undertake missions for the church. The clerics and their companions are compensated fairly for these missions, and the church may be especially generous with the casting of needed spells or divine magic items as payment.
Of course, clerics are people, too, and they may have any or all the more common motivations for adventuring.
Characteristics: Clerics are masters of divine magic, which is especially good at healing. Even an inexperienced cleric can bring people back from the brink of death, and an experienced cleric can bring back people who have crossed over that brink. As channelers of divine energy, clerics can affect undead creatures. A good cleric can turn away or even destroy undead; an evil
cleric can bring undead under his control. Clerics have some combat training. They can use simple weapons, and they are trained in the use of armor, since armor does not interfere with divine spells the way it does with arcane spells.
Alignment: Like the gods they serve, clerics can be of any alignment. Because people more readily worship good deities than neutral or evil ones, there are more good than evil clerics. Clerics also tend toward law instead of chaos, since lawful religions tend to be more structured and better able to recruit and train clerics than chaotic ones. Typically, a cleric is the same alignment as his deity, though some clerics are one step away from their respective deities in alignment. For example, most clerics of Heironeous, the god of valor (who is lawful good) are lawful good, but some are lawful neutral or neutral good. Additionally, a cleric may not be neutral (that is, neutral on both the good–evil axis and the lawful–chaotic axis) unless his deity is neutral.
Religion: Every reasonably well-known deity has clerics devoted to him or her, so clerics can be of any religion. The deity most common worshiped by human clerics in civilized lands is Pelor (god of the sun). The majority of nonhuman clerics are devoted to the chief god of the appropriate racial pantheon. Most clerics are officially ordained members of religious organizations, commonly called churches. Each has sworn to uphold the ideals of his church. Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric devoted to good and law, for example, may be on friendly terms with the clerics of lawful and good deities and may extol the virtues of a good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church hierarchy.
Background: Most clerics join their churches as young adults, though some are devoted to a god’s service from a young age, and a few feel the call later in life. While some clerics are tightly bound to their churches’ activities on a daily basis, others have more freedom to conduct their lives as they please, as long as they do so in accordance with their gods’ wishes. Clerics of a given religion are all supposed to get along, though schisms within a church are often more bitter than conflicts between religions. Clerics who share some basic ideals, such as goodness or lawfulness, may find common cause with each other and see themselves as part of an order or body that supersedes any given religion. Clerics of opposed goals, however, are sworn enemies.
In civilized lands, open warfare between religions occurs only during civil wars and similar social upheavals, but vicious politicking between opposed churches is common.
Races: All the common races are represented in this class, since the need for religion and divine magic is universal. The clerics of most races, however, are too focused on their religious duties to undertake an adventurer’s life. Crusading, adventuring clerics most often come from the human and dwarf races. Among the savage humanoids, clerics are less common. The exception is troglodytes, who take well to divine magic and are often led by priests, who make a practice of sacrificing and devouring captives.
Other Classes: In an adventuring party, the cleric is everybody’s friend and often the glue that holds the party together. As the one who can channel divine energy, a cleric is a capable healer, and adventurers of every class appreciate being put back together after they’ve taken some hard knocks. Clerics sometimes clash with druids, since druids represent an older, more primal relationship between the mortal and the divine. Mostly, though, the
religion of a cleric determines how he gets along with others. A cleric of Olidammara (god of thieves), gets along fine with rogues and ne’er-do-wells, for example, while a cleric of Heironeous (god of valor) rankles at such company.
Role: The cleric serves as a typical group’s primary healer, diviner, and defensive specialist. He can hold his own in a fight but usually isn’t well served by charging to the front of combat. The cleric’s domains and spell selection can greatly affect his role as well.
with the 4e one:
Clerics are battle leaders who are invested with divine power. They blast foes with magical prayers, bolster and heal companions, and lead the way to victory with a mace in one hand and a holy symbol in the other.
Clerics run the gamut from humble servants of the common folk to ruthless enforcers of evil gods. As a cleric, the deity (or deities) you choose to
revere goes a long way toward defining you, or at least how other people in the world see you. You could be a platinum-garbed envoy of Bahamut seeking justice throughout the land, a shadowy follower of Sehanine with a roguish streak, a burly disciple of Kord who believes the virtue of strength is sufficient for all challenges, or a dwarf cleric of Moradin bringing honor to the denizens of your mountain home. Will you protect what is sacred to your god, quest for legendary holy artifacts, pursue a life of evangelical adventuring, or attempt all these deeds and more?
CLERIC OVERVIEW
Characteristics: You are an extremely good healer. You have a mix of melee and ranged powers. Most of your attacks deal only moderate damage, but they safeguard your allies or provide bonuses to their attacks.
Religion: A cleric can choose to worship any deity, but steer clear of choosing an evil or chaotic evil deity unless you have permission from your DM to choose one.
Races: Humans and dwarves make ideal clerics. Elves, half-elves, and dragonborn are good clerics too, but they rarely have the same values of piety and reverence found in many human and dwarven cultures. Certain gods attract a preponderance of clerics of a particular race—for example, many (but not all) clerics of Moradin are dwarves—but in general, all races respect all gods to at least some degree. The race you play and the deity your character worships have little effect on your cleric’s ability to utilize divine powers.
Clerics and Deities
All clerics choose a specific faith to which they devote themselves. Usually this faith is the worship of a specific patron deity—for example, Moradin, Pelor, or Erathis. Sometimes clerics are devoted to churches that venerate groups of deities or even philosophies. As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers. Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a
deity moves to directly ordain a worthy worshiper without any sort of priestly hierarchy involved. What you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you, although if you flagrantly and openly defy your deity’s tenets, you quickly earn the enmity of the faithful.
by this logic you are punished every time you go to the store and buy anything beyond basic staples; you don't need these things, but you want them. if you're willing to pay the price for them it's hardly a punishment, it's you deciding that the benefits outweigh the costs. and, personally, I like that it takes a bit more effort to perform rituals. a guy in a dress waving his hand and creating a mansion quickly loses any awe it may have when you realize he can do it over and over with no cost beyond a spell slot.
and spell components sort of fill the same role, though they vary so incredibly wildly as to be just fluff. I can't think of any party that ever tracked components except in cases like Raise Dead/Resurrection or plot-required spells.
=> Buying only staples:
This logic applies if you have very limited ressources and a set way of getting them. Real life isn't as harsh in that aspect on most people in industrialized nations.
=> Benefits outweighing the costs
But the benefits of a flying invisible fortress never outweigh the costs of dying because you have 600000 gp less to spend on equipment you need.
Spell Components indeed filled the same role in 3e, which was why, for example, Stone Skin saw a sharp drop in being used after it got an expensive material component in the shift from 3e to 3.5e.
=> High cost making effects more impressive
Yes, but only if the effects themselves, and the costs, have impressive fluff. There's nothing impressive about "So, I spent 600000 gp on residue to cast the "Raise Land" ritual."
@Doctor Kenny Loggins
That it doesn't work well as written doesn't make it a bad idea, just bad implementation, which given the amount of work people are willing to put in to making a system work here should be exactly the kind of thing you'd work on as a group.
Which is what those people on this board who play 4e despite its' properties did, for example
here.
