The Shadowrun Situation

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:24 pm

Wait, Jason Hardy thinks it is possible to steal the intellectual property of Tolstoy? He died a long time ago. That's like stealing the intellectual property of Plato.

That interpretation makes it go from "a completely different dystopian setting" to "a completely retarded statement that makes no sense in any context."

You can't "steal" classic literature. It doesn't belong to anybody.

-Username17

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:15 pm

Someone on the german official shadowrun board just pointed this out:
how does this mesh with the really big huge open source software community in SR4?
open source software does not even degrade like pirated copies do . .

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:28 pm

I can sort of get the Kerouac thing, just as a joke. The intellectual property rights for Kerouac's works were the subject of an incredibly complicated set of nested inheritances, forged signatures, and bad blood. He died in 1969, so even if they extended copyrights of dead people to a hundred years, his stuff would still be impossible to pirate in 2073. Tolstoy is just ignorant. He made all his own works public domain in 1880. It hasn't been possible to pirate his work since before the Great War.

If that rant isn't part of an "every unowned book is a stolen book" thing where the works of Aristotle and Ptolemy are seized and burned by the Firemen of the day, then it's just retarded. The entire premise revolves around it being illegal to sell a copy of War & Peace, and that requires either a giant departure from Shadowrun canon, or everyone on the project being a moron.

-Username17

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:43 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:I can sort of get the Kerouac thing, just as a joke. The intellectual property rights for Kerouac's works were the subject of an incredibly complicated set of nested inheritances, forged signatures, and bad blood. He died in 1969, so even if they extended copyrights of dead people to a hundred years, his stuff would still be impossible to pirate in 2073. Tolstoy is just ignorant. He made all his own works public domain in 1880. It hasn't been possible to pirate his work since before the Great War.

If that rant isn't part of an "every unowned book is a stolen book" thing where the works of Aristotle and Ptolemy are seized and burned by the Firemen of the day, then it's just retarded. The entire premise revolves around it being illegal to sell a copy of War & Peace, and that requires either a giant departure from Shadowrun canon, or everyone on the project being a moron.

-Username17

Perhaps the property under protection is the translation? Is the work translated? Did they say? I don't know the exact context here, I'm just trying to think like of some counter nitpick.

Not that it should matter when you can find software to translate it for you in real time...

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:54 pm

Nothing to do with translation. Hardy's stating that a book that's distributed through an illegal vendor is in itself an illegal item. Which is just nuts.

That's like saying an album that Prince Paul released solely to Napster in the late-'90s would be illegal.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:58 pm

Otakusensei wrote:Not that it should matter when you can find software to translate it for you in real time...

Or, for that matter, software that lets you be able to read Russian.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:59 pm

Wesley Street wrote:Nothing to do with translation. Hardy's stating that a book that's distributed through an illegal vendor is in itself an illegal item. Which is just nuts.

That's like saying an album that Prince Paul released solely to Napster in the late-'90s would be illegal.

Ouch. If the state of things has gotten this bad by 2073 we should have been told before now. Seems like kind of a big issue to slide into a book like Attitude that people are onyl going to buy because they are either huge Shadowrun fans or they heard it has wearable drones.

Speaking of which, the fuck?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:23 pm

*shrugs*
basically it's the lifter from Aliens, which signourney weaver/ellen ripley used to beat up the Xenomorph Queen to save the little Girl.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:48 pm

Ok, not sure what that's doing in Attitude but it doesn't sound too strange.

I thought I saw something on Dumpshock about it giving a STR of 8 and dropping AGI to 1, but it didn't make sense. In a world where you can wirelessly experience being your own car, right down to "feeling" the wind on "your" hood, we can't assume that the Japanese have figured out how to properly wear a drone? To have it perfectly mimic your own movements as you make them? What about parity with Milspec STR and mobility upgrades that basically make the armor a drone in all but name?

Oh wait... nevermind.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:09 pm

yep.
basically it's a civilian power armor.
a normal lifter but on legs instead of wheels/threads.

Rasumichin · Post by **Rasumichin** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:10 pm

Otakusensei wrote: I thought I saw something on Dumpshock about it giving a STR of 8 and dropping AGI to 1, but it didn't make sense.

I heard it drops AGI by 1, not to 1.
That would make sense for a clumsy low-end solution, the high-end one being the mobility upgrade for military armor.

______________________________________

Regarding the issue of piracy, i always felt that the copyright situation in SR4 didn't make much sense, even though what i've seen so far from Attitude takes things to a whole new level of retardation.
It's much easier to assume that maintaining IP laws as they are is a losing battle and piracy will at least be as widespread in the 2070s as it is now, most likely much more so and with a completely different legal situation, than to construct the Fahrenheit 451 meets DRM situation we see in Attitude.

Of course, the SR timeline split somewhere in the 90s and corps got quasi-states around the turn of the century in SR, so it's conceivable that open source, DIY and filesharing received a heavy blow early on.
Given that all of this wasn't a big issue when the first editions saw print, it also makes sense that SR4 has to be the first edition to adress the whole topic.

The problem is that no one ever bothered to send us a memo covering this. Instead, we are left with what we have now, conflicting notions about a giant open source coding scene on one hand and ultrarepressive IP management on the other.
When we throw nanoforges into the mix (meaning : oh, i CAN download a car now), this becomes even more virulent.
To the point where someone would have to declare a cohesive official stance of the setting towards all that, to the fact that technological progress could effectively abolish entire subsections of consumer capitalism.

Once more, that's the problem with not declaring your design goals openly, or not even having thought-out design goals in the first place : we are left with the mess we have now, instead of given the opportunity to utilize all the plot hooks and flavorful setting details that could arise from putting some thought into the issue and formulating how the game world as a whole reacts to this.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:52 pm

It has literally twelve authors, including several that I reflexively hate the work of.

Okay Frank, I'll bite. Which writers do you reflexively hate the work of? (As opposed, I guess, to the ones you hate the work of after reading it.)

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:55 pm

Schwarzkopf wrote:
It has literally twelve authors, including several that I reflexively hate the work of.
Okay Frank, I'll bite. Which writers do you reflexively hate the work of? (As opposed, I guess, to the ones you hate the work of after reading it.)

At this point, if I see the names:

Aaro Pavao
David Hill
Jason Hardy

I brace for the worst. Because I know it's coming. Russel Zimmerman (Critias) is getting there fast.

-Username17

Critias · Post by **Critias** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:53 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Schwarzkopf wrote:
It has literally twelve authors, including several that I reflexively hate the work of.
Okay Frank, I'll bite. Which writers do you reflexively hate the work of? (As opposed, I guess, to the ones you hate the work of after reading it.)
At this point, if I see the names:
Aaro Pavao

David Hill

Jason Hardy
I brace for the worst. Because I know it's coming. Russel Zimmerman (Critias) is getting there fast.

-Username17

Okay, Frank. That one was enough to prompt me to go ahead and register here, because I'm genuinely curious. What exactly is it about my single published contribution so far -- since this is about writers whose work you hate, of course, not just a petty list of people who you don't like -- that makes you brace for "the worst" because you know it's coming?

Please, enlighten me. I mean, since this is about the quality of my writing, and all, and not just because I of our butting heads on RPG.net earlier today, right? I'm not scared of genuine criticism of my work, and I welcome it, in fact. I'm just wondering how I went from "not even considered to be among the current crop of writers" earlier today to "writing is so consistently bad it makes me brace for the worst" in just a few short hours.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:04 pm

Critias wrote: Okay, Frank. That one was enough to prompt me to go ahead and register here, because I'm genuinely curious. What exactly is it about my single published contribution so far -- since this is about writers whose work you hate, of course, not just a petty list of people who you don't like -- that makes you brace for "the worst" because you know it's coming?

Please, enlighten me. I mean, since this is about the quality of my writing, and all, and not just because I of our butting heads on RPG.net earlier today, right?

You've been in one "real" project. It was awful. And your reaction to being shown parts of the book which were basic failures to use contextual references in English was... to claim artistic license.

Yes. You think that failing to craft an English sentence is something that counts as artistic license. That is horse shit. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

But more importantly: you categorically reject the idea that maybe your shit smells like poo because you lack experience. You insist that you should already be treated as an experienced veteran. You have said in so many words that I have no reason to expect that the next thing you write will be any better than the steaming pile you just served up.

There are people that I expect bad writing from. And usually this comes from two things: first that they wrote something bad, and second that they are a total dick about it in such a way that I can expect that the next thing they write will also be bad. One shitty book and a long impassioned defense of it is not a pattern, it is an anecdote. But let's be clear: you are very quickly proceeding in the direction whereby it would be reasonable to predict that anything you put your name on is garbage by default.

-Username17

Critias · Post by **Critias** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:19 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Critias wrote: Okay, Frank. That one was enough to prompt me to go ahead and register here, because I'm genuinely curious. What exactly is it about my single published contribution so far -- since this is about writers whose work you hate, of course, not just a petty list of people who you don't like -- that makes you brace for "the worst" because you know it's coming?

Please, enlighten me. I mean, since this is about the quality of my writing, and all, and not just because I of our butting heads on RPG.net earlier today, right?
You've been in one "real" project. It was awful. And your reaction to being shown parts of the book which were basic failures to use contextual references in English was... to claim artistic license.

Yes. You think that failing to craft an English sentence is something that counts as artistic license. That is horse shit. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

But more importantly: you categorically reject the idea that maybe your shit smells like poo because you lack experience. You insist that you should already be treated as an experienced veteran. You have said in so many words that I have no reason to expect that the next thing you write will be any better than the steaming pile you just served up.

There are people that I expect bad writing from. And usually this comes from two things: first that they wrote something bad, and second that they are a total dick about it in such a way that I can expect that the next thing they write will also be bad. One shitty book and a long impassioned defense of it is not a pattern, it is an anecdote. But let's be clear: you are very quickly proceeding in the direction whereby it would be reasonable to predict that anything you put your name on is garbage by default.

-Username17

So, right. You're pissed off about our discussion earlier today and don't actually have anything constructively critical to say about my writing, itself. Because you dislike me as a person, you've decided to lump me in with writers whose work you don't like, rather than admitting it's people you don't like who happen to be writers. That's pretty much what I was expecting. It's too bad, because I really don't mind feedback about my writing...but I guess I shouldn't have expected it from you.

And I'm sorry if you don't like me saying so, but there are times that a sentence can be grammatically incorrect on purpose, just like I said in that other thread. I never said it was the case with every such error in Attitude (in fact, you'll notice I made the same disclaimer over there, right before I admitted that there are still typographical problems!), but I'm standing firm by the idea that it can be the case. It may or may not be the reason for these errors you're finding in Attitude, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a possibility.

I'm not the only writer who's going for a more conversational, less clinical, style with the portions of a sourcebook that don't need to be clinical; just like a real-life forum post, sometimes a post to Jackpoint is going to be conversational rather than formal. You dislike that and think it's something to be ashamed over, but I really don't see hordes of Shadowrun fans lining up behind you with red pens in hand. It might be a writing style you don't like or approve of, but that doesn't mean it's not a writing style.

And as far as my supposed insistence on being treated like some veteran writer, that's simply not true. I dislike it when I hear people call my peers and I scabs or when they say (over and over again) that my peers and I don't know the Shadowrun universe -- I stand firmly by the fact that I am a Shadowrun veteran, with as many hours logged researching and enjoying the universe as almost anyone else. I will compare my knowledge of, and comfort with, the Shadowrun universe to pretty much anyone you'd care to name. You know full well there are guys like me writing for them now, and guys like Bull and Patrick Goodman, all of whom have been around for a good long time, who aren't folks who recently jumped ship from Battletech (or whatever), and that sort of thing; so, yes. While I don't make any claims to being a veteran Shadowrun writer in any official capacity, I do get irritated when people say I don't know or care about the game.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:39 pm

You want constructive criticism? OK, sure. I'm game for that.

Which parts of which section - exactly - are your babies. They are all bad, but sure. We can go point by point in exactly how your stuff is bad if you want.

Right now I have you in the "Oh no, it's that guy" box because 100% of your work sucks and you have been quite vocal in defending it and your credentials, qualities which lead me to believe that your next work will be of similar quality.

-Username17

Critias · Post by **Critias** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:57 pm

Where have I been vocal in defending Attitude, Frank? Please. Quote me. Find a post I've made where I've told anyone that Attitude is the best thing since sliced bread. I've made comments like "an improvement over War" when discussing changes we made to the editorial process. I've pointed out that some typographical/grammatical errors might be attributed to artistic license (but never claimed all of them). I've asked for specific criticism instead of just more heaps of insults from you, which I guess maybe counts as vocally defending my work...maybe? More than anything else, on multiple forums, I've been encouraging people to go read Attitude, or the free preview, for themselves and make up their own mind. HOLY SHIT what a vocal defense of mine, with that zany "I dunno, I like it, but you should go check it out for it yourself" vocal defense of mine.

You've obviously decided I'm some sort of corporate shill that's 100% toeing the party line, but I'll kindly ask you to actually read what I'm saying, here, on RPG.net, on DS, on the Shadowrun boards, or in the transcripts from the not-so-private forum areas that I know some of you have read. It's a vain hope, I'm sure, because even right here we're three posts in on you saying I'm one of their worst writers before you'd even admitted you don't know what parts of Attitude I wrote...but it would make for a nice change of pace if you could criticize me for things I actually say, instead of putting words in my mouth.

You've made it abundantly clear that genuine, impartial, criticism is beyond you, but I've never shied away from telling people what parts of the book I wrote. Maybe someone else here on TGD is curious, too, so just for the record, I tackled The Untethered Life and the intro fic for it. I added to The Trid Scene at the last minute, when the layout guy warned us they had half a blank page to fill in, so I threw together a write-up of Chase: Errant Knight (since, previous, people had enjoyed that character from DS's old vignette thread). I wish the layout guy would've warned me my chapter was going to have half a blank page to worry about, too, but oh well. I did what I could with the word count I was given. If I'd known I'd have more room, I could have gone into a little more detail...but anyways, spilled milk now.

So there you go, Frank. By all means, have fun. At least your amusing little rant will be aimed at things I actually wrote, instead of just lumping me in with people and deciding to hate me because I dared to disagree with you on the internet.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:19 am

Critias wrote:More than anything else, on multiple forums, I've been encouraging people to go read Attitude, or the free preview, for themselves and make up their own mind. HOLY SHIT what a vocal defense of mine, with that zany "I dunno, I like it, but you should go check it out for it yourself" vocal defense of mine.

Well, when checking it out for themselves involves paying money for Catalyst Product, it's pretty much a defense of attitude to claim that everyone should buy the damn thing before they can decide it's not worth buying.

Critias · Post by **Critias** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:30 am

Kaelik wrote:
Critias wrote:More than anything else, on multiple forums, I've been encouraging people to go read Attitude, or the free preview, for themselves and make up their own mind. HOLY SHIT what a vocal defense of mine, with that zany "I dunno, I like it, but you should go check it out for it yourself" vocal defense of mine.
Well, when checking it out for themselves involves paying money for Catalyst Product, it's pretty much a defense of attitude to claim that everyone should buy the damn thing before they can decide it's not worth buying.

Even though I specifically point them at the free preview PDF? Like I just did, here, just now, in the very line of text you quoted?

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems like there's just no winning with some of you. I'm specifically not telling people that it's the best book ever and they need to hurry and buy it (and, in fact, on RPG.net I've been pointing people to Dumpshock and other forums, not just to the preview and/or book itself). I'm the guy thanking Tete, Cain's buddy, for taking the time to write a 3 (out of 5) review for Attitude, because I really do value the input, and appreciate him taking the time to write the review...and I'm still apparently the bad guy company man, somehow.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:58 am

Critias wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Critias wrote:More than anything else, on multiple forums, I've been encouraging people to go read Attitude, or the free preview, for themselves and make up their own mind. HOLY SHIT what a vocal defense of mine, with that zany "I dunno, I like it, but you should go check it out for it yourself" vocal defense of mine.
Well, when checking it out for themselves involves paying money for Catalyst Product, it's pretty much a defense of attitude to claim that everyone should buy the damn thing before they can decide it's not worth buying.
Even though I specifically point them at the free preview PDF? Like I just did, here, just now, in the very line of text you quoted?

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems like there's just no winning with some of you. I'm specifically not telling people that it's the best book ever and they need to hurry and buy it (and, in fact, on RPG.net I've been pointing people to Dumpshock and other forums, not just to the preview and/or book itself). I'm the guy thanking Tete, Cain's buddy, for taking the time to write a 3 (out of 5) review for Attitude, because I really do value the input, and appreciate him taking the time to write the review...and I'm still apparently the bad guy company man, somehow.

I understand your super defensive about everything, but you did suggest people buy the product to make their minds up for themselves. You don't have to get all defensive at someone pointing out that actually is completely ass backwards, since the whole point of making the decision is to do it before shelling out money.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:03 am

You're working for the company, you're a company man. If the company is bad, that makes you a bad guy company man.

And CGL is bad.

Critias · Post by **Critias** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:06 am

Kaelik wrote:
Critias wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Well, when checking it out for themselves involves paying money for Catalyst Product, it's pretty much a defense of attitude to claim that everyone should buy the damn thing before they can decide it's not worth buying.
Even though I specifically point them at the free preview PDF? Like I just did, here, just now, in the very line of text you quoted?

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it seems like there's just no winning with some of you. I'm specifically not telling people that it's the best book ever and they need to hurry and buy it (and, in fact, on RPG.net I've been pointing people to Dumpshock and other forums, not just to the preview and/or book itself). I'm the guy thanking Tete, Cain's buddy, for taking the time to write a 3 (out of 5) review for Attitude, because I really do value the input, and appreciate him taking the time to write the review...and I'm still apparently the bad guy company man, somehow.
I understand your super defensive about everything, but you did suggest people buy the product to make their minds up for themselves. You don't have to get all defensive at someone pointing out that actually is completely ass backwards, since the whole point of making the decision is to do it before shelling out money.

Kaelik, I'm really only defensive about people putting words in my mouth. I've suggested people talk to folks who have the product, I've suggested folks look at a free preview of the product, but I've never said "go buy it and then decide if it's worth buying." It's not like paying money for it is the only way to see what's on a pdf. Suggesting someone read material that's available as a free download, suggesting someone go see what folks are saying on forums or web-stores about a product, and suggesting someone go buy a product are not the same thing.

I mean, I get it. I'm the bad guy here. I'm the outsider, I'm the mean old nasty corporate sell-out, or whatever. Okay. But -- again -- I'm just asking that folks actually criticize me for the things I say, not the things they think I've said.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:14 am

Critias wrote:Kaelik, I'm really only defensive about people putting words in my mouth. I've suggested people talk to folks who have the product, I've suggested folks look at a free preview of the product, but I've never said "go buy it and then decide if it's worth buying." Suggesting someone read material that's available as a free download, suggesting someone go see what folks are saying on forums or web-stores about a product, and suggesting someone go buy a product are not the same thing.

I mean, I get it. I'm the bad guy here. I'm the outsider, I'm the mean old nasty corporate sell-out, or whatever. Okay. But -- again -- I'm just asking that folks actually criticize me for the things I say, not the things they think I've said.

What you said is "I've been encouraging people to go read Attitude, or the free preview, for themselves and make up their own mind."

Reading Attitude involves buying it. The preview is not the entire book, and it's your second mention. What people say on forums is not the actual book contents, if it was, you wouldn't be encouraging people to read Attitude on forums posted after people on forums have criticized the book.

It's good that you are backpedaling so hard from your initial assertion that people should read Attitude and make up their own mind, because it means you realize that assertion is crap. But don't pretend you didn't say it.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:17 am

Fuchs wrote:You're working for the company, you're a company man. If the company is bad, that makes you a bad guy company man.

And CGL is bad.

Right here, dude.

You're never going to get a neutral review here, and you know it. You're going to get heat for working for a corrupt company like CGL, and you know it. You came here and called Frank Trollman out. And you got exactly what you were looking for.

You don't get to bitch and take the high ground on shit that you brought on yourself.